Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Raoul said:
Back to my original question...especially among those on the pro-Palestinian side.

What sort of long term solution that both sides could live with would you suggest ?
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1) Give control of the region to a superior fighting force(Reduce Israel military power while you are at it).
2) Define borders(whatever the feck they are) evenly based on economic reasoning not religious grounds.
3) Let the two nations live in peace for twenty/thirty years so that the next generation will not grow up to be idiots like fearless.

Its a bit simplistic and would require the cooperation of most of the world but it can be done if the super powers put their mind to it.
 
MJJ said:
1) Give control of the region to a superior fighting force(Reduce Israel military power while you are at it).
2) Define borders(whatever the feck they are) evenly based on economic reasoning not religious grounds.
3) Let the two nations live in peace for twenty/thirty years so that the next generation will not grow up to be idiots like fearless.

Its a bit simplistic and would require the cooperation of most of the world but it can be done if the super powers put their mind to it.
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1)Never happen.
2)Never happen
3)Never happen.
4)Hire a history teacher.
 
MJJ said:
1) Give control of the region to a superior fighting force(Reduce Israel military power while you are at it).
2) Define borders(whatever the feck they are) evenly based on economic reasoning not religious grounds.
3) Let the two nations live in peace for twenty/thirty years so that the next generation will not grow up to be idiots....
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On 1. What do you mean by "superior fighting force"? Also, do you think it's realistic that Israel would reduce their military capabilities when they feel they are under attack from Hamas?
 
Raoul said:
On 1. What do you mean by "superior fighting force"? Also, do you think it's realistic that Israel would reduce their military capabilities when they feel they are under attack from Hamas?
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You need someone to maintain control of the border and the two countries.This army has to be significantly stronger than Israel's army to act as a detterrent to both.

Make a combined force of the world super powers kinda like giving UN an army and some real powers or get America to finally be neutral and stop pushing an agenda.

They wont reduce their capabilities even if they werent under attack but its needed if you are ever going to have peace. In my scenario they wont be under attack as the duties of maintaining peace will be passed on to a neutral army.
 
MJJ said:
On the other hand, we actually are counting loads of dead bodies. But oh well, all for a worthy cause. Whats human life when you have hypotheticals like that to think of.
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It does matter because with their rate of improvement Hamas will end up killing a whole lot of people with better equipment. And I'm terribly sorry that when someone fires at me with the intention of killing us - even if we have the ability to protect ourselves, and even when he knows we will retaliate - he still does that without caring what it means to his people.
 
Amir said:
It does matter because with their rate of improvement Hamas will end up killing a whole lot of people with better equipment. And I'm terribly sorry that when someone fires at me with the intention of killing us - even if we have the ability to protect ourselves, and even when he knows we will retaliate - he still does that without caring what it means to his people.
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Again have no idea how reliable that is but yeah thats retaliation right there. At one point you guys change from retaliating to being the aggressors. I mean ffs hamas are the terrorist and still most of the world condemns Israel. Thats how idiotic you guys are and how many people you have killed.

Not to mention your secret service.
 
MJJ said:
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Again have no idea how reliable that is but yeah thats retaliation right there. At one point you guys change from retaliating to being the aggressors. I mean ffs hamas are the terrorist and still most of the world condemns Israel. Thats how idiotic you guys are and how many people you have killed.

Not to mention your secret service.
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Hamas WANT this.
 
MJJ said:
Again have no idea how reliable that is but yeah thats retaliation right there. At one point you guys change from retaliating to being the aggressors. I mean ffs hamas are the terrorist and still most of the world condemns Israel. Thats how idiotic you guys are and how many people you have killed.

Not to mention your secret service.
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Of course the world will condemn Israel. We are stronger, we have better weapons and we end up killing more. To put it in awfully silly football terms, It's like Manchester United playing Wrexham. If you're not a United supporter, you'll be supporting Wrexham even if they are playing shit football.

Israel had no interest going into this a few weeks ago despite the odd rocket launched from Gaza. The situation was created by the kidnapping of the three Israeli guys which made Israel use force in the West Bank during the search, ultimately causing Hamas to join in on the rocket firing and giving groups within the Gaza strip free hand at firing themselves. Without the kidnapping, none of this would have happened.

I'm hardly blind and Israel is at fault for many things, especially when it comes to Abbas and the West Bank. Our government is a disaster to our present and future. But Gaza and Hamas are a different kettle of fish. They don't a feck about their people and are probably happy to see the dead because it brings them that sympathy you're talking about. That's why they invest all their money in attacking weapons and nothing on any defensive measures.
 
Amir said:
Of course the world will condemn Israel. We are stronger, we have better weapons and we end up killing more. To put it in awfully silly football terms, It's like Manchester United playing Wrexham. If you're not a United supporter, you'll be supporting Wrexham even if they are playing shit football.

Israel had no interest going into this a few weeks ago despite the odd rocket launched from Gaza. The situation was created by the kidnapping of the three Israeli guys which made Israel use force in the West Bank during the search, ultimately causing Hamas to join in on the rocket firing and giving groups within the Gaza strip free hand at firing themselves. Without the kidnapping, none of this would have happened.

I'm hardly blind and Israel is at fault for many things, especially when it comes to Abbas and the West Bank. Our government is a disaster to our present and future. But Gaza and Hamas are a different kettle of fish. They don't a feck about their people and are probably happy to see the dead because it brings them that sympathy you're talking about. That's why they invest all their money in attacking weapons and nothing on any defensive measures.
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:lol: Do you guys go to schools that force you to think this way? Wow, you and fearless.
 
MJJ said:
You need someone to maintain control of the border and the two countries.This army has to be significantly stronger than Israel's army to act as a detterrent to both.

Make a combined force of the world super powers kinda like giving UN an army and some real powers or get America to finally be neutral and stop pushing an agenda.

They wont reduce their capabilities even if they werent under attack but its needed if you are ever going to have peace. In my scenario they wont be under attack as the duties of maintaining peace will be passed on to a neutral army.
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Mate, i asked for realistic suggestions. Most of what you're proposing is basically asking Israel (who hold a military advantage) to give up that advantage. How realistic is that ?
 
Raoul said:
Mate, i asked for realistic suggestions. Most of what you're proposing is basically asking Israel (who hold a military advantage) to give up that advantage. How realistic is that ?
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Its the only realistic situation. If America for one wanted, then Israel will be forced to compromise. As long as they hold that advantage, then they are not interested in peace talks. Why give away anything when you can have it all? Look at the attitude of the Israelites here. Calling Palestines beasts or comparing the war and loss of human life to a FA cup match.
 
MJJ said:
:lol: Do you guys go to schools that force you to think this way? Wow, you and fearless.
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Shockingly, no. But I'm not surprised that when people see bodies - especially children - they will automatically turn against who ever did this, even if the leaders of those people are at fault for the whole thing.
 
MJJ said:
Its the only realistic situation. If America for one wanted, then Israel will be forced to compromise. As long as they hold that advantage, then they are not interested in peace talks. Why give away anything when you can have it all? Look at the attitude of the Israelites here. Calling Palestines beasts or comparing the war and loss of human life to a FA cup match.
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Its not that simple though is it. American policy is guided by domestic pressures from voters and special interest groups. Any US President, whether they are pro or anti-Israel, is not going to rock the boat on Israel-Palestine when there are broader US foreign policy equities around the world that need to collectively be taken into account. Russia-Ukraine, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, China, etc.
 
Amir said:
Shockingly, no. But I'm not surprised that when people see bodies - especially children - they will automatically turn against who ever did this, even if the leaders of those people are at fault for the whole thing.
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If the response was proportionate I dont think they will, am from Pakistan and our army is finally conducting an operation against the taliban in our border. Almost the whole country is behind the army.

When the americans were attacking with their drones, it was the opposite and the loss of the innocent lives wasnt making it worth it.
 
Raoul said:
Its not that simple though is it. American policy is guided by domestic pressures from voters and special interest groups. Any US President, whether they are pro or anti-Israel, is not going to rock the boat on Israel-Palestine when there are broader US foreign policy equities around the world that need to collectively be taken into account. Russia-Ukraine, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, China, etc.
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Nope, sadly its not. Thats why the issue has prevailed so long. I only used America as an example as its the only military super-power in the world. If China or Russia had the might would have used them instead as examples but sadly they dont.
 
MJJ said:
If the response was proportionate I dont think they will, am from Pakistan and our army is finally conducting an operation against the taliban in our border. Almost the whole country is behind the army.

When the americans were attacking with their drones, it was the opposite and the loss of the innocent lives wasnt making it worth it.
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What's your emotional connection with this issue ? I ask because there are significantly worse things in terms of humanitarian catastrophes that have taken place over the past couple of decades including genocide in Rwanda, half a million deaths in Darfur, and hundreds of thousands in Syria and probably others. Are you equally appalled by those events, or does the Palestinian cause have a more meaning to you ?
 
Raoul said:
What's your emotional connection with this issue ? I ask because there are significantly worse things in terms of humanitarian catastrophes that have taken place over the past couple of decades including genocide in Rwanda, half a million deaths in Darfur, and hundreds of thousands in Syria and probably others. Are you equally appalled by those events, or does the Palestinian cause have a more meaning to you ?
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None actually. If we had a thread on that here and idiots were arguing in favor of it, would have posted similarly.

I dont think any cause in the world justifies the killing of innocents on that scale.
 
MJJ said:
None actually. If we had a thread on that here and idiots were arguing in favor of it, would have posted similarly.

I dont think any cause in the world justifies the killing of innocents on that scale.
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So you're arguing for because others are arguing against is it ? You see nothing inherently unique in the Palestinian issue that causes it to receive a disproportionate amount of criticism in contrast to places like Rwanda, Darfur, Syria et al ?
 
MJJ said:
If the response was proportionate I dont think they will, am from Pakistan and our army is finally conducting an operation against the taliban in our border. Almost the whole country is behind the army.

When the americans were attacking with their drones, it was the opposite and the loss of the innocent lives wasnt making it worth it.
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Almost the whole country here is also behind the army. Even the left wing parties are supporting the operation, as long as we know when and how to finish it. Because this really is a case of Hamas bring it on itself and its people. You can't expect Israel not to respond when it's citizens are being showered by rockets. And a light response will lead nowhere. That's the reality when you are dealing with a group who don't care at all for its people.

Meanwhile, there have a couple of direct hits in Israel. Several people injured, at least two severly. Yep, those rockets can cause grave damage.
 
Raoul said:
So you're arguing for because others are arguing against is it ? You see nothing inherently unique in the Palestinian issue that causes it to receive a disproportionate amount of criticism in contrast to places like Rwanda, Darfur, Syria et al ?
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Yup, think this was my first post in this thread.

I dont really follow the western media so not sure how much attention is given to each of that country. I know muslims support Palestine because of our religion mostly but not sure about the west. Maybe because it has been happening for a long while and is a clear case of one country abusing their power so is more in the spotlight while for the rest its the countries own affairs. As it s easier to find a villian in this issue.

Wanna tell me why?
 
Amir said:
Almost the whole country here is also behind the army. Even the left wing parties are supporting the operation, as long as we know when and how to finish it. Because this really is a case of Hamas bring it on itself and its people. You can't expect Israel not to respond when it's citizens are being showered by rockets. And a light response will lead nowhere. That's the reality when you are dealing with a group who don't care at all for its people.
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Ofcourse you guys are. Because you dont see palestines as humans, its like oh the children probably deserve it for being born to Hamas parents.

My point with that example was that if the response is not proportionate to the crime, people will turn against the aggressor. And you expect Hamas not to response? Seriously, every parent you guys kill/every home you ruin just encourages more kids to take up arms against you. As you said, those rockets arent doing any harm anyway and the loss of palestine life doesnt make up for it.
 
MJJ said:
Yup, think this was my first post in this thread.

I dont really follow the western media so not sure how much attention is given to each of that country. I know muslims support Palestine because of our religion mostly but not sure about the west. Maybe because it has been happening for a long while and is a clear case of one country abusing their power so is more in the spotlight while for the rest its the countries own affairs. As it s easier to find a villian in this issue.

Wanna tell me why?
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I haven't a clue about your personal beliefs. If you're Muslim then its understandable that you hold such views, as Muslims tend to have a degree of solidarity on the Palestine issue. Although interestingly, there are roughly as many Muslims as Jews in the US. If they cared and/or where organized, they could create a powerful voting block to push their own policy preferences on various issues, including Palestinians. Strangely, they don't seem to have the same level of solidarity on the issue as Christians and American Jews.
 
I know this is an emotional issue, but let's ditch the name calling in this thread. Otherwise people are going to get kicked out.
 
Raoul said:
I haven't a clue about your personal beliefs. If you're Muslim then its understandable that you hold such views, as Muslims tend to have a degree of solidarity on the Palestine issue. Although interestingly, there are roughly as many Muslims as Jews in the US. If they cared and/or where organized, they could create a powerful voting block to push their own policy preferences on various issues, including Palestinians. Strangely, they don't seem to have the same level of solidarity on the issue as Christians and American Jews.
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Oh I wasnt talking about myself there but trying to answer your question. As I understand why its unique from a muslim pov but not why from a western pov. So was guessing and hoping you would share your knowledge.

That might have happened after 9/11 but now its near impossible. Some americans are xenophobes anyway and islamophobia is on the rise as well.
 
Raoul said:
I haven't a clue about your personal beliefs. If you're Muslim then its understandable that you hold such views, as Muslims tend to have a degree of solidarity on the Palestine issue. Although interestingly, there are roughly as many Muslims as Jews in the US. If they cared and/or where organized, they could create a powerful voting block to push their own policy preferences on various issues, including Palestinians. Strangely, they don't seem to have the same level of solidarity on the issue as Christians and American Jews.
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Raoul you don't need to be muslim or non-muslim to witness the war crimes that are occurring at the moment against a defenseless population. It's not even about religion. This is not a war, a war is supposed to take place between 2 armies, this is ethnic cleaning. Bibi and his allies are absolute bonkers.
 
Hellboy said:
Raoul you don't need to be muslim or non-muslim to witness the war crimes that are occurring at the moment against a defenseless population. It's not even about religion. This is not a war, a war is supposed to take place between 2 armies, this is ethnic cleaning. Bibi and his allies are absolute bonkers.
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I understand, its a human issue first before its one of religions. Why do you think this issue receives as much attention as it does, compared with other humanitarian crises like Rwanda, Darfur etc ?
 
MJJ said:
My point with that example was that if the response is not proportionate to the crime, people will turn against the aggressor. And you expect Hamas not to response? Seriously, every parent you guys kill/every home you ruin just encourages more kids to take up arms against you. As you said, those rockets arent doing any harm anyway and the loss of palestine life doesnt make up for it.
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Childish as it may sound - this time they started it.
 
MJJ said:
And thats exactly why a superior neutral fighting power is needed in the region. An adult to govern the two children.
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Going back to my earlier question - do you think its realistic for Israel, who hold all the power and military advantage, to invite a "superior fighting force" (which I'm presuming means multilateral peacekeepers) to come in and take charge of situation that would undercut their own advantage ?
 
Raoul said:
Going back to my earlier question - do you think its realistic for Israel, who hold all the power and military advantage, to invite a "superior fighting force" (which I'm presuming means multilateral peacekeepers) to come in and take charge of situation that would undercut their own advantage ?
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MJJ said:
Its the only realistic situation. If America for one wanted, then Israel will be forced to compromise. As long as they hold that advantage, then they are not interested in peace talks. Why give away anything when you can have it all? Look at the attitude of the Israelites here. Calling Palestines beasts or comparing the war and loss of human life to a FA cup match.
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Like I said, Israel needs to be forced into the issue. They are perfectly happy with the current situation.

More like an army made of the best technology and soldiers of the world or europe plus america.
 
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