Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Kaos said:
The 'peace' demands made by Israel were disclaimered so ludicrously that not even a crony like Abbas could accept them, and deliberately so I should add. I don't believe them to be genuine and are entertained simply to provide cover for Israel’s takeover of the territories it wishes to control as well as sparing the United States embarrassment at the United Nations.
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What do you see as Israel's long term objective? Just keep on building settlements across the entire WB? What's the end goal?
 
Mihajlovic said:
What do you see as Israel's long term objective? Just keep on building settlements across the entire WB? What's the end goal?
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I think their long term goal is to build enough settlements in enough strategic locations to make the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state effectively impossible, choking off vital points and roads etc.

They make eventually annex much of the West Bank (area C), make the few Palestinians there nationals and then tell the Palestinians in the rest of the West Bank and Gaza to do one, striking every once in a while as they currently do in Gaza if they create enough trouble within Israel.

I think they know that long term they can most likely come to peace with pretty much every other Arab country (and indeed they already talk to many of the ones they're not at peace with behind closed doors) because their leaders have passed the phase of suffering their own countries for the sake of the Palestinians. Most of the world won't be upset enough at their actions to create any real problems for them as that isn't how the world works and so it will be the Palestinians (or Arabs or cockroaches or whatever you wish to call them) who are shafted. Again.

I think Israeli governments want 'Peace' in the sense that they want quiet. In that sense, almost anybody who has ever ruled wants peace. Unfortunately, peace for Israel in that sense also means continued injustice for the Palestinians which is why they rarely accept the terms put in front of them and something that the Israelis seem incapable of understanding.

In reality as well, the Palestinians seem mostly ignorant as to why the Jews are so afraid and make little effort to assuage these fears.

I think the PA is a god send for them as well, allows them to do focus just on the day to days of occupation.
 
Raoul said:
I'd imagine the visceral brutality of three grown men beating the hell out of a skinny teenage kid will trump anything the kid may have allegedly done, and any attempts to blame the kid for what happened to him will cast the Israeli government in an unflattering light. The international public may also be inclined to wonder how often this sort of thing goes on when the cameras aren't rolling.
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Considering some Israeli outlets started reporting the dead Palestinian boy was gay and that his murder was a Palestinian honour killing (I indeed have a few Israeli acquaintances who still believe this to be the case), it certainly would not be a surprise to hear multiple justifications for this.

This clearly terrorist child is lucky that he has an American passport and was recorded as well, otherwise he may well have ended up like one of the many Palestinian children locked up or killed by the IDF.
 
It's interesting to see from the perspective of a western country on how much coverage this conflict gets compared to other conflicts around the world. There are countries like Turkey who regularly abuse ethnic minorities and commit the same acts we see on the news, yet we hear next to nothing compared to the treatment of Palestinians by Israel.

After all, they're both cases of humans being treated poorly but why is it a case of one getting reported more than the others?
 
africanspur said:
I think their long term goal is to build enough settlements in enough strategic locations to make the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state effectively impossible, choking off vital points and roads etc.

They make eventually annex much of the West Bank (area C), make the few Palestinians there nationals and then tell the Palestinians in the rest of the West Bank and Gaza to do one, striking every once in a while as they currently do in Gaza if they create enough trouble within Israel.

I think they know that long term they can most likely come to peace with pretty much every other Arab country (and indeed they already talk to many of the ones they're not at peace with behind closed doors) because their leaders have passed the phase of suffering their own countries for the sake of the Palestinians. Most of the world won't be upset enough at their actions to create any real problems for them as that isn't how the world works and so it will be the Palestinians (or Arabs or cockroaches or whatever you wish to call them) who are shafted. Again.

I think Israeli governments want 'Peace' in the sense that they want quiet. In that sense, almost anybody who has ever ruled wants peace. Unfortunately, peace for Israel in that sense also means continued injustice for the Palestinians which is why they rarely accept the terms put in front of them and something that the Israelis seem incapable of understanding.

In reality as well, the Palestinians seem mostly ignorant as to why the Jews are so afraid and make little effort to assuage these fears.

I think the PA is a god send for them as well, allows them to do focus just on the day to days of occupation.
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Pretty much this @Mihajlovic
 
Mihajlovic said:
Why don't you just stop firing rockets if a.) you're anyway unable to kill any Jews and b.) in return you only get pounded by the IDF? Is that not even an option for you? I don't understand the logic.
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I see what you're trying to do here. First of all let me tell you that thankfully all the jews are not zionist neo-nazis, and some non-jews (like you ?) are even more zealous and insane than the zionists themselves. The objective here is not killing jews.

Your "logic" is even more difficult to comprehend believe me. I don't get it. Do you expect Palestinians to sit back and watch their children and wives being killed, their homes destroyed without any kind of reaction ? Do you realize that Israel have one of the most sophisticated armies in the world and is terrorizing helpless people ? If you were a random Palestinian in Gaza right now you would probably understand, but go on defend Israel.
 
Dante said:
Gaza and the WB are already de facto ghettos under Israeli control. The only way out is for it to become a legal reality and the whole place to become a single state.

American support for Israel is the main thing stopping it from happening. I don't know how that'll change any time soon.
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It won't change because Israel controls America. I'm quoting war criminal Sharon here.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/01/11/burying-sharon/

Conspiracionists etc.
 
africanspur said:
I think their long term goal is to build enough settlements in enough strategic locations to make the creation of a contiguous Palestinian state effectively impossible, choking off vital points and roads etc.

They make eventually annex much of the West Bank (area C), make the few Palestinians there nationals and then tell the Palestinians in the rest of the West Bank and Gaza to do one, striking every once in a while as they currently do in Gaza if they create enough trouble within Israel.

I think they know that long term they can most likely come to peace with pretty much every other Arab country (and indeed they already talk to many of the ones they're not at peace with behind closed doors) because their leaders have passed the phase of suffering their own countries for the sake of the Palestinians. Most of the world won't be upset enough at their actions to create any real problems for them as that isn't how the world works and so it will be the Palestinians (or Arabs or cockroaches or whatever you wish to call them) who are shafted. Again.

I think Israeli governments want 'Peace' in the sense that they want quiet. In that sense, almost anybody who has ever ruled wants peace. Unfortunately, peace for Israel in that sense also means continued injustice for the Palestinians which is why they rarely accept the terms put in front of them and something that the Israelis seem incapable of understanding.

In reality as well, the Palestinians seem mostly ignorant as to why the Jews are so afraid and make little effort to assuage these fears.

I think the PA is a god send for them as well, allows them to do focus just on the day to days of occupation.
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Kaos said:
Pretty much this @Mihajlovic
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If the plot is so obvious, and the Palestinians are dead certain to lose everything why haven't they ever considered acknowledging Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state in pre-1967 borders. You don't hold what's been termed here a "bargaining chip" that long.
 
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Raoul said:
A proper looney toons website.
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Looney toon or not this quote is real and it doesn't even have to be real to justify the fact that America can't do anything against Israel because :

A) 1/3 of the US world aid goes to Israel.
B) Protected by more than 30 US vetoes in the UN.
C) Second most influencal lobby in the US.

And many more reasons. Saying the contrary is just a proof of bad faith.
 
Hellboy said:
Looney toon or not this quote is real and it doesn't even have to be real to justify the fact that America can't do anything against Israel because :

A) 1/3 of the US world aid goes to Israel.
B) Protected by more than 30 US vetoes in the UN.
C) Second most influencal lobby in the US.

And many more reasons. Saying the contrary is just a proof of bad faith.
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Actually Egypt and Pakistan together get nearly as much as Israel, which in turn receives far less than Afghanistan. A bulk of American assistance goes to Muslim countries.
 
holyland red said:
If the plot is so obvious, and the Palestinians are dead certain to lose everything why haven't they ever considered acknowledging Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state in pre-1967 borders. You don't hold what's been termed here a "bargaining chip" that long.
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Maybe the hard-line Palestinian leadership are OK with a single state and a playing the long game? They know full well that Israel can't get rid of millions of them.

Their sheer numbers are actually their ultimate bargain tool.
 
Gaza

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Raoul said:
So what's your take on this latest flare up ?
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Overdue.

Netanyahu could have avoided this by crushing Hamas last time round instead of backing off. Sharon could have avoided this by pulling out to in the first place.
Always tragic to see innocent lives taken, but such is the agenda of Islamic terror.
 
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...israelis-arent-telling-this-week-9596120.html

"A future Palestine state will have no borders and be an enclave within Israel, surrounded on all sides by Israeli-held territory"

Its about time the truth was told. There will be no two state solution.

Meanwhile, that great leftist Israeli *********** Uri Avnery – 90 years old and still, thankfully, going strong – has picked up on his country’s latest obsession: the danger that Isis will storm west from its Iraqi/Syrian “caliphate” and arrive on the east bank of the Jordan river.



“And Netanyahu said,” according to Avnery, “if they are not stopped by the permanent Israeli garrison there (on the Jordan river), they will appear at the gates of Tel Aviv.” The truth, of course, is that the Israeli air force would have crushed Isis the moment it dared to cross the Jordanian border from Iraq or Syria.

The importance of this, however, is that if Israel keeps its army on the Jordan (to protect Israel from Isis), a future “Palestine” state will have no borders and will be an enclave within Israel, surrounded on all sides by Israeli-held territory.

“Much like the South African Bantustans,” says Avnery. In other words, no “viable” state of Palestine will ever exist. After all, aren’t Isis just the same as Hamas? Of course not.
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Netanyahu is one hell of a warmonger, How many times has this idiot ordered air strikes on civilians now? Not cool man, any other country in the reigon that pulls this kind of stuff.....Well, we all know what happens to them.
 
Raoul said:
Actually Egypt and Pakistan together get nearly as much as Israel, which in turn receives far less than Afghanistan. A bulk of American assistance goes to Muslim countries.
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Doesnt change what he said though does it?

Amir said:
If we didn't have Iron Dome, we'd be counting a whole lot of bodies by now. Maybe my own, who knows.
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On the other hand, we actually are counting loads of dead bodies. But oh well, all for a worthy cause. Whats human life when you have hypotheticals like that to think of.
 
Fearless said:
Overdue.

Netanyahu could have avoided this by crushing Hamas last time round instead of backing off. Sharon could have avoided this by pulling out to in the first place.
Always tragic to see innocent lives taken, but such is the agenda of Islamic terror.
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Erm.. yeah.
 
MJJ said:
Doesnt change what he said though does it?
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Of course it does. It contextualizes US support in a broader context where Israel and Muslim countries are all beneficiaries of US support. If the US was just pro-Israel, it would certainly not give money to nations that have historically been at odds with Israel.
 
Fearless said:
Overdue.

Netanyahu could have avoided this by crushing Hamas last time round instead of backing off. Sharon could have avoided this by pulling out to in the first place.
Always tragic to see innocent lives taken, but such is the agenda of Islamic terror.
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You can't crush Hamas. Unless you kill millions. There will always be somebody willing to fight.

Hamas is a symptom not a cause.
 
Raoul said:
Of course it does. It contextualizes US support in a broader context where Israel and Muslim countries are all beneficiaries of US support. If the US was just pro-Israel, it would certainly not give money to nations that have historically been at odds with Israel.
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Being historically at odds with Israel is not the same as being actively against Israel now. Afghanistan and Pakistan get funds for a whole lot of different reasons and there are loads of strings attached while egypt is also acting more like Saudis when it comes to Israel rather than being actively against it.

The US is pro-Israel, its stupid to argue elsewise.

Fearless said:
Great response.
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Seemed appropriate to your post.
 
MJJ said:
:lol: What do you think they are doing now and have been doing in the past?
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They are killing hundreds per years. Its a relatively low intensity conflict. If they really wanted too they could wipe out huge numbers. Of course it would be unacceptable to do so. The international community would have to step in then.
 
MJJ said:
Being historically at odds with Israel is not the same as being actively against Israel now. Afghanistan and Pakistan get funds for a whole lot of different reasons and there are loads of strings attached while egypt is also acting more like Saudis when it comes to Israel rather than being actively against it.

The US is pro-Israel, its stupid to argue elsewise.
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No one denied it was pro-Israel, but its also foolish to suggest it is anti-Muslim as the wealth gets spread quite nicely among Muslim nations, which contextualizes the original post a bit.
 
Raoul said:
Of course it does. It contextualizes US support in a broader context where Israel and Muslim countries are all beneficiaries of US support. If the US was just pro-Israel, it would certainly not give money to nations that have historically been at odds with Israel.
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They do not give money to the countries, they give money to the regimes that help them solidify Israel's position in the region. Israel (and oil) is the basis for US' relation with any country in the region.
 
Danny1982 said:
They do not give money to the countries, they give money to the regimes that help them solidify Israel's position in the region. Israel (and oil) is the basis for US' relation with any country in the region.
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Yes indeed, they give money to the governments. That's how it works with foreign assistance. :)

They do however also give a lot of money to civil society through USAID.
 
Raoul said:
No one denied it was pro-Israel, but its also foolish to suggest it is anti-Muslim as the wealth gets spread quite nicely among Muslim nations, which contextualizes the original post a bit.
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The government might not be but some sections of the country are after 9/11.

Although I dont think anyone actually suggested that, if they did I will agree with you that it is foolish to think so as the government is more concerned with their own country than religion. While the muslims do get aid from America, like I said there are clear strings attached to it which isnt the case with Israel.

Edit-Or what danny said.



thegregster said:
They are killing hundreds per years. Its a relatively low intensity conflict. If they really wanted too they could wipe out huge numbers. Of course it would be unacceptable to do so. The international community would have to step in then.
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They are doing just that but slowly and over a period of time to avoid all out war. Add up the death toll over the past forty years, its going to be close to or over a million and there is no end in sight.
 
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