Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Commadus said:
Israel has been taking Unilateral actions in building settlements and it's working.

Anyone who thinks there will be a two state solution is deluded or simply echoing rhetoric.

The only solution is where the Palestinians can go and live.
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Of course its unilateral. What else would it be ? Bilateral ?

The point is that Israel controls the power in the relationship, so poking them in the eye with rockets is likely to exacerbate the situation. Any solution will require Israel's participation.
 
Commadus said:
would you say the suffering of both sides is equivalent?
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Equivalent? No, not a chance. The Palestinians are obviously suffering more, no sane person can argue otherwise.

But, when suffering it's normal for ppl to put their own suffering ahead of that of others & to make excuses/allowances for that.

So, Palestinians will continue to speak of their poverty, oppression and death - alternatively Israelis will point you to their bomb shelters. Each side will say what they did was retaliatory and they were simply defending themselves from aggression.

It's a deadly version of 'he started it'
 
What exactly is the big deal about this new settlement? From what I understand it's built in an area that is largely just rock and wasteland at the moment. Does the land in this particular area actually legally belong to any known people?
 
holyland red said:
Recognition in the right of the Jewish people for a homeland in the ME.
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:lol:

There's not a civilised country in the world who doesn't support Israel's continued excistence. It's a not an issue. And you all Israelis know that. Unless Fox etc. etc.
 
Red Norse said:
:lol:

There's not a civilised country in the world who doesn't support Israel's continued excistence. It's a not an issue. And you all Israelis know that. Unless Fox etc. etc.
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Well obviously it is an issue that there's no recognition among Palestinians, and Muslim countries generally. The Israelis have to take that seriously, it means essentially a perpetual state of war.

What Holyland never accepts is that it would be catastrophically stupid negotiating for Fatah/Hamas to offer recognition before talks start. Cessation of violence and recognition are their only assets.
 
Mihajlovic said:
What exactly is the big deal about this new settlement? From what I understand it's built in an area that is largely just rock and wasteland at the moment. Does the land in this particular area actually legally belong to any known people?
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I expect a post like this from Colin :lol:


Because the location of the settlements isn't in an area that will further split the WB - and it won't further complicate the hopes of a contiguous mass of land for the Palestinians.

Oh I know, there will be land exchanges before a final deal is signed...of course you build illegal settlements in an area you really shouldn't...then you say you'll bring it down, but then extract 'fair' price for it.

Israel really is fecking the Palestinians up the ass - Good on them, I mean who doesn't try to extract maximum profit from any given situation.
 
Neutral said:
I expect a post like this from Colin :lol:


Because the location of the settlements isn't in an area that will further split the WB - and it won't further complicate the hopes of a contiguous mass of land for the Palestinians.

Oh I know, there will be land exchanges before a final deal is signed...of course you build illegal settlements in an area you really shouldn't...then you say you'll bring it down, but then extract 'fair' price for it.

Israel really is fecking the Palestinians up the ass - Good on them, I mean who doesn't try to extract maximum profit from any given situation.
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This still doesn't answer my question though, as I was wondering if this particular piece of land where the constructions are to begin actually legally belongs to someone.

I also don’t understand the ‘splitting up’ argument, so correct me if I’m wrong, would this new settlement literally cut the West Bank in two halves? According to this map (see image) it wouldn’t as there still seems to exist a few miles stretch between J’lem and Maale Adumim. So in essence any borders for a future Palestinian state would look a bit weird and disjointed, but that still shouldn’t preclude the conditions for seeking a peaceful solution.

If I look at my own home country’s borders of Republika Srpska (basically former Bosnia split between Serb, Croat and Muslim parts), they just look completely ridiculous (see image below) but still, the whole thing works and people get on with it. Yes there are tons of compensation claims from all sides and people pissed off about resettling, or selling land and property for no money, etc. but on the bright side it’s been quiet and peaceful for 17 years now, and the best thing is a whole new generation is growing up without tensions and fears of war. And that to me is a super achievement regardless of all the previous injustices about land and whatnot.


Map-proposed-E1-Israeli-s-001.jpg


republika%20srpska%20mapa.jpg
 
Neutral said:
I expect a post like this from Colin :lol:


Because the location of the settlements isn't in an area that will further split the WB - and it won't further complicate the hopes of a contiguous mass of land for the Palestinians.

Oh I know, there will be land exchanges before a final deal is signed...of course you build illegal settlements in an area you really shouldn't...then you say you'll bring it down, but then extract 'fair' price for it.

Israel really is fecking the Palestinians up the ass - Good on them, I mean who doesn't try to extract maximum profit from any given situation.
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Absolute bollocks. BTW, I thought "Palestine" was already split, but that never posed a true obstacle as long as the two sides had interest in negotiations.
 
Mihajlovic said:
This still doesn't answer my question though, as I was wondering if this particular piece of land where the constructions are to begin actually legally belongs to someone.

I also don’t understand the ‘splitting up’ argument, so correct me if I’m wrong, would this new settlement literally cut the West Bank in two halves? According to this map (see image) it wouldn’t as there still seems to exist a few miles stretch between J’lem and Maale Adumim. So in essence any borders for a future Palestinian state would look a bit weird and disjointed, but that still shouldn’t preclude the conditions for seeking a peaceful solution.

If I look at my own home country’s borders of Republika Srpska (basically former Bosnia split between Serb, Croat and Muslim parts), they just look completely ridiculous (see image below) but still, the whole thing works and people get on with it. Yes there are tons of compensation claims from all sides and people pissed off about resettling, or selling land and property for no money, etc. but on the bright side it’s been quiet and peaceful for 17 years now, and the best thing is a whole new generation is growing up without tensions and fears of war. And that to me is a super achievement regardless of all the previous injustices about land and whatnot.


Map-proposed-E1-Israeli-s-001.jpg


republika%20srpska%20mapa.jpg
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On a different note, how is Bosnia governed? Is it a sustainable solution?

Is there a federal government and regional governments underneath? Can Croats/Serbs/Bosnian Muslims use the facilities and travel freely throughout the country?
 
France, UK and Sweden have withdrawn their ambassador from Israel. Russia and Germany could maybe do the same. Does Israel care for it?
 
Frosty said:
On a different note, how is Bosnia governed? Is it a sustainable solution?

Is there a federal government and regional governments underneath? Can Croats/Serbs/Bosnian Muslims use the facilities and travel freely throughout the country?
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Travel is free throughout the entire country, no check points, nothing. Even the licence plates are generated in such a way that they only use latin letters which are common in Cyrillic as well as in latin, so there’s no indication as to who’s sitting behind the wheel;) But talking about health care for example, if you’re resident of the RS, you can only get health insurance in RS, and the same applies for the Federation. Unless you’re a pensioner, they have health insurance regardless of where they currently reside.

As for the governing aspect, it’s a pointless to say the least. It’s made up of three members, one muslim, one Croat, one Serb. Whilst the muslim member congratulates Abbas on his UN bid, the Serbian member is meeting with some Russian ambassadors. This is also where at the UN voting in matters of Israel you always get an abstained vote as all three members have to agree either for or against, and it’s usually the Serb member that always blocks a unanimous pro-Palestinian vote by the Croat and Muslim member.

The disadvantage of this 3-member system is that for example in Republika Srpska you can only vote for a Serbian member for the joint presidency, and in the Muslim/Croatian federation its population can only vote for a muslim and Croat representative. Ironically the Bosnian presidency in Sarajevo is located in the Marshal Tito street and all of its members are, allegedly, equally corrupt ;)

Not sure how sustainable the whole system is. I’d prefer splitting completely from the Federation and having a fully independent RS. The muslim part is obviously against such independence as they’d preferably control the entire territory of former Bosnia and have us as a constitutional minority. And that is never going to happen.
 
Revan said:
France, UK and Sweden have withdrawn their ambassador from Israel. Russia and Germany could maybe do the same. Does Israel care for it?
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All this 'ambassador withdrawing' is generally a bit cringe-worthy imo.
 
It's about time Israel are getting sanctioned for what they're doing. Any other country would.
 
Mihajlovic said:
All this 'ambassador withdrawing' is generally a bit cringe-worthy imo.
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I know. Anyway I was a little surprised, usually US allies only salute Israel decisions.

Mihajlovic said:
Not sure how sustainable the whole system is. I’d prefer splitting completely from the Federation and having a fully independent RS. The muslim part is obviously against such independence as they’d preferably control the entire territory of former Bosnia and have us as a constitutional minority. And that is never going to happen.
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Would you think that this will be the best solution? Knowing Bosnia situation I think that yes, and I really don't know what is the interest of Muslim/Croats federation in Republika Srpska. It looks that the central government in Bosnia is the most pointless government in the world and strange how the government situation hasn't changed after Deyton.
 
Revan said:
France, UK and Sweden have withdrawn their ambassador from Israel. Russia and Germany could maybe do the same. Does Israel care for it?
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I don't think this is accurate. To the best of my knowledge, Israeli ambassadors have been summoned to have concerns in several capitals heard. We laso express concerns when we're under rocket fire, although that doesn't stop some from handing virtual statehood to the perpetrators.
 
Mihajlovic said:
Serb member that always blocks a unanimous pro-Palestinian vote by the Croat and Muslim member.
.....
The muslim part is obviously against such independence as they’d preferably control the entire territory of former Bosnia and have us as a constitutional minority. And that is never going to happen.
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Some things never change... ;)
 
barros said:
We can't do that, we like cheap computers, cloth, etc, made by slave children in a third country with imperial dreams and worldwide control.
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Jake is so concerned with human rights, and he cares so much for the opressed, so he can make that little extra effort and afford a Mac. Oh, wait...
 
Israel to keep Palestinian funds for months

Israeli foreign minister says funds will be held until at least March, in order to pay off debts to utility companies.

Israel will withhold tax revenues from the Palestinian administration until at least March, in response to the Palestinians' bid for statehood at the UN, Israel's foreign minister says.

Under current peace deals, Israel collects about $100 million every month in duties on behalf of the Palestinian Authority (PA) in the occupied West Bank. That money is primarily used to pay public sector salaries.

"The Palestinians can forget about getting even one cent in the coming four months, and in four months' time we will decide how to proceed," Avigdor Lieberman, the Israel foreign minister, said in a speech on Tuesday night.

Israel says Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas violated previous peace accords by side-stepping stalled negotiations and securing a Palestinian status upgrade in the United Nations last month.

The December funds transfer has already been withheld, with Israel saying that the money would be used to begin payments on the $200 million the Palestinians owe the Israel Electric corporation.

Lieberman, a hardline member of Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's conservative coalition government, said that the Palestinians also had another debt with the Israeli water authority.

"Israel is not prepared to accept unilateral steps by the Palestinian side, and anyone who thinks they will achieve concessions and gains this way is wrong," he said.

'Piracy and theft'

Yasser Abed Rabbo, a senior Palestinian official, said earlier this month that Israel was guilty of "piracy and theft" by refusing to hand over the funds.

The European Union has also criticised Israel for withholding the funds.

"Contractual obligations ... regarding full, timely, predictable and transparent transfer of tax and custom revenues have to be respected," it said on Monday.

Israel has previous frozen payments to the PA during times of political or security crisis, provoking strong international criticism.

The last time it took this step was when the UN cultural body UNESCO granted the Palestinians full membership a year ago.

Israel was one of nine countries who late last month voted against upgrading the Palestinians' observer status to "non-member state" at the UN General Assembly.

Hours after the UN vote, Israel said it would authorise 3,000 new settler homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and expedite planning work for thousands more in a geographically sensitive area close to Jerusalem.

Critics say this plan will kill off Palestinian hopes of a viable state.
 
lem8sh said:
Israel to keep Palestinian funds for months

Israeli foreign minister says funds will be held until at least March, in order to pay off debts to utility companies.

Israel will withhold tax revenues from the Palestinian administration until at least March, in response to the Palestinians' bid for statehood at the UN, Israel's foreign minister says.

Under current peace deals, Israel collects about $100 million every month in duties on behalf of the Palestinian Authority (PA) in the occupied West Bank. That money is primarily used to pay public sector salaries.

"The Palestinians can forget about getting even one cent in the coming four months, and in four months' time we will decide how to proceed," Avigdor Lieberman, the Israel foreign minister, said in a speech on Tuesday night.

Israel says Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas violated previous peace accords by side-stepping stalled negotiations and securing a Palestinian status upgrade in the United Nations last month.

The December funds transfer has already been withheld, with Israel saying that the money would be used to begin payments on the $200 million the Palestinians owe the Israel Electric corporation.

Lieberman, a hardline member of Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's conservative coalition government, said that the Palestinians also had another debt with the Israeli water authority.

"Israel is not prepared to accept unilateral steps by the Palestinian side, and anyone who thinks they will achieve concessions and gains this way is wrong," he said.

'Piracy and theft'

Yasser Abed Rabbo, a senior Palestinian official, said earlier this month that Israel was guilty of "piracy and theft" by refusing to hand over the funds.

The European Union has also criticised Israel for withholding the funds.

"Contractual obligations ... regarding full, timely, predictable and transparent transfer of tax and custom revenues have to be respected," it said on Monday.

Israel has previous frozen payments to the PA during times of political or security crisis, provoking strong international criticism.

The last time it took this step was when the UN cultural body UNESCO granted the Palestinians full membership a year ago.

Israel was one of nine countries who late last month voted against upgrading the Palestinians' observer status to "non-member state" at the UN General Assembly.

Hours after the UN vote, Israel said it would authorise 3,000 new settler homes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and expedite planning work for thousands more in a geographically sensitive area close to Jerusalem.

Critics say this plan will kill off Palestinian hopes of a viable state.
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You are not going to pay their bills, are you? Anyway, they'll get money from their Arab brothers as prmoised before their UN trick.
 
I've been waiting to hear from someone with enough courage to tell the story of what it's like inside Israel without all the rhetorical nonsense. Here it is, from a Ustream broadcast 12.12.12

http://www.ustream.tv/user/ayelet.haliva

Watch the most recent in this archive.

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From the other side of the prison wall ~ Live from inside the Gaza Strip 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWJFC98jPrQ
 
ooeat0meoo said:
I've been waiting to hear from someone with enough courage to tell the story of what it's like inside Israel without all the rhetorical nonsense. Here it is, from a Ustream broadcast 12.12.12

http://www.ustream.tv/user/ayelet.haliva

Watch the most recent in this archive.
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Hehe, Bob the loon has been waiting for so long to hear about life inside Israel...

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ooeat0meoo said:
From the other side of the prison wall ~ Live from inside the Gaza Strip 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWJFC98jPrQ
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Excellent documentary. Thanks.
 
Neutral said:
I expect a post like this from Colin :lol:


Because the location of the settlements isn't in an area that will further split the WB - and it won't further complicate the hopes of a contiguous mass of land for the Palestinians.
Oh I know, there will be land exchanges before a final deal is signed...of course you build illegal settlements in an area you really shouldn't...then you say you'll bring it down, but then extract 'fair' price for it.

Israel really is fecking the Palestinians up the ass - Good on them, I mean who doesn't try to extract maximum profit from any given situation.
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Even the NYT is open to listening to facts...

"Correction: December 7, 2012


An earlier version of this article referred imprecisely to the effect of planned Israeli development in the area known as E1 on access to the cities of Ramallah and Bethlehem from Jerusalem, and on the West Bank. Such development would limit access to Ramallah and Bethlehem to only narrow corridors far from the Old City and downtown Jerusalem. It would also create a large block of Israeli settlements in the center of the West Bank; it would not divide the West Bank in two.

Because of an editing error, the article referred incompletely to the possibility of a contiguous Palestinian state. Critics see E1 as a threat to the meaningful contiguity of such a state state because it would leave some Palestinian areas connected to one another by roads with few exits or by circuitous routes; the proposed development would not, technically, make a contiguous Palestinian state impossible."

Nevermind that a two-state solution, including those proposals offered and rejected by the Palestinians, would include an even narrower corridor in Israel.

e1_continguity.jpg
 
holyland red said:
Even the NYT is open to listening to facts...

"Correction: December 7, 2012


An earlier version of this article referred imprecisely to the effect of planned Israeli development in the area known as E1 on access to the cities of Ramallah and Bethlehem from Jerusalem, and on the West Bank. Such development would limit access to Ramallah and Bethlehem to only narrow corridors far from the Old City and downtown Jerusalem. It would also create a large block of Israeli settlements in the center of the West Bank; it would not divide the West Bank in two.

Because of an editing error, the article referred incompletely to the possibility of a contiguous Palestinian state. Critics see E1 as a threat to the meaningful contiguity of such a state state because it would leave some Palestinian areas connected to one another by roads with few exits or by circuitous routes; the proposed development would not, technically, make a contiguous Palestinian state impossible."

Nevermind that a two-state solution, including those proposals offered and rejected by the Palestinians, would include an even narrower corridor in Israel.

e1_continguity.jpg
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A contiguous state would include Gaza.

Fairly so.
 
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