Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Seriously though, who the hell is Mudar Zahran? I'd never heard of him before so went to do a little googling and can't find too much on him. He's written a few articles for the Gatestone institute, an American Neo-con organisation.

He's a Palestinian (apparently..) living in the UK, who is the leader of the Palestinians in Jordan????
 
“The Palestinian people’s right to self-determination and justice must […] be recognized. Put yourself in their shoes - look at the world through their eyes. It is not fair that a Palestinian child cannot grow up in a state of her own, and lives with the presence of a foreign army that controls the movements of her parents every single day. […] Israelis must recognize that continued settlement activity is counterproductive to the cause of peace, and that an independent Palestine must be viable - that real borders will have to be drawn.”

- Barack Obama.
 
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/israel-launches-air-strikes-on-gaza-29171340.html

They were the first air strikes launched by Israel since an informal ceasefire ended eight days of cross-border fighting between Israel and Hamas-ruled Gaza.

An Israeli military statement said its planes targeted "two extensive terror sites" with "accurate hits". Palestinian officials said no one was hurt in the air strikes and no damage was reported in northern Gaza.
 
Hey, look Jake...you missed the first line of your quoted article: "Israeli warplanes have struck targets in the Gaza Strip in response to rocket fire towards southern Israel."

As you're a true servant of human rights, including those of Jewish civilians in Southern Israel, I'm sure this was a honest mistake.
 
Google%20Palestine.jpg
 


Irish cameraman again shot and injured by Israeli military in the West Bank

This evening, Friday 3rd May, Irish cameraman Tommy Donnellan was shot in the back, leg and arm by the Israeli military while filming a protest in the Palestinian village of Silwad in the occupied West Bank. Mr. Donnellan, who is from near Ballinasloe in Galway travelled to the West Bank in February. Today he sustained three wounds from a rubber-coated steel bullets which punctured his left leg, and bruised his back and upper right arm.

This is the third time Mr. Donnellan has been injured by the Israeli military in as many months. On 19th March, he sustained a wound from a rubber-coated steel bullet which punctured his upper right arm while filming a protest in Nabi Saleh. Last Friday 26th April he recieved a slight injury when he was struck by a concussion grenade in the right leg.

Iyad Burnat, an activist in the West Bank village of Bil’in said: “Tommy is seeking medical help in Ramallah hospital for the hole in his left leg. Following the injury to Tommy’s right leg from a stung grenade that was thrown at him last Friday in Silwad, and the injury he received in his right arm in March, it’s clear that the Israeli occupation forces are targeting Tommy.”

According to the International Solidarity Movement in Palestine, around four hundred Palestinians, joined by a handful of international activists, participated in today’s weekly demonstration organised by Silwad and Deir Jarir villages on their lands, upon which settlers from Ofra set up an illegal outpost more than four weeks ago.

This outpost consist of caravans and huts situated on Palestinian farm land that the residents of Silwad, Deir Jarir, Taybeh and Ein Yabrud have been denied access to for over a decade. A settlement outpost is the first move made by settlers when conducting a land-grab in the West Bank; establishing temporary buildings which are protected by the military and eventually made permanent, in order to establish ‘facts on the ground’ and steal Palestinian land.

This is the second weekly demonstration that the villages of Silwad and Deir Jarir have held together to protests the land theft and settler violence and more demonstrations are expected to be organised in the following weeks.
 
From what I read about Donnellan this is hardly an Israeli attack "on media" but on a pro-palestinian reporter who has taken sides in this conflict and doesn't shy away from distorting the truth on the ground and deliberately painting a negative picture of Israel. Pretty much a dickhead, imo. Shame Eviatar Borovsky wasn't that lucky to get a rubber bullet while waiting at a bus stop but instead got a knife in his abdomen.
 
How low can one stoop.

Father of Muhammad al-Dura rebukes Israeli report on son's death
Report re-ignites war of words over death of 12-year-old al-Dura in Gaza in 2000 by claiming the incident was staged


In a scrubby cemetery in central Gaza, where crumbling tombstones nestle in the sand amid wind-blown rubbish, Jamal al-Dura crouched at the grave of his son Muhammad to recite the Muslim prayer for the dead. With the youngest of his 11 children at his side, he took his hands from his face, laid them on the marble slab and looked up, a bitter as well as a bereaved man.

"Israel says my son isn't dead. Can you imagine how this feels for a father who has lost his child? They have all the technology tools in the world. He's not dead? Then bring him to me," he said.

The long, acrimonious war over the death of 12-year-old Muhammad al-Dura in September 2000 was reignited this week with the release of an official Israeli report attacking a 55-second television broadcast, aired on that day 13 years ago, for what it said was distortion, falsehood, fabrication and incitement to terror.

The Israeli report – commissioned by the prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, who endorsed its conclusions – suggested that the entire event may have been staged as a propaganda exercise and that Muhammad was not killed or even injured. This was dismissed with weary incredulity by Jamal, Talal Abu Rahma, the cameraman who filmed the incident, and by France 2, the television station whose broadcast ricocheted around the world.

The filmed scenes of Muhammad and Jamal cowering behind a concrete block on a street corner amid heavy gunfire, with the boy screaming in terror before slumping across his father's lap, became the most potent image of the Palestinian intifada, or uprising, that started shortly afterwards. It was reproduced on posters, stamps and murals across the Arab world and cited by al-Qaida in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks in the US.

It swiftly became part of what this week's Israeli report described as "the battle for the TV or computer screen [which] is often as or even more important than the actual military clash". Almost immediately, supporters of Israel sought to cast doubt on the veracity of the footage, and the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) retracted an early statement at a press conference that "apparently the boy was hit by our fire".

The day itself, 30 September 2000, began with an outing to buy a car. Jamal and Muhammad travelled from their home in the Bureij refugee camp in central Gaza north to a car market in Gaza City. At the time, the Gaza Strip was punctuated with Israeli military checkpoints, heavily fortified army posts and watchtowers, there to protect 21 Jewish settlements.

Unsuccessful in their mission, the al-Duras embarked on the return to Bureij by taxi. When they reached the Netzarim junction, a military gateway between the northern and southern halves of Gaza and a frequent flashpoint between the IDF and Palestinian youths, trouble had already started. The taxi driver refused to go further, and Jamal and Muhammad set off to cross the junction by foot.

As gunfire started, father and son sheltered by a concrete water barrel close to the crossroads, diagonally across from the IDF post and round the corner from a Palestinian security forces command post. "I tried to hide by the cement block. I was raising my hands and waving to ask them to stop," Jamal told the Guardian this week. "I could see the soldiers in the tower but they didn't stop shooting.

"I was only thinking about one thing: how to protect my son. He was scared. When he was shot by the first bullet, I was telling him, don't be afraid, the ambulance will come. He said, I'm not afraid, you don't be afraid. When he fell across my lap, I realised he was dead. These seconds felt like hours, days."

Pressed on the sequence and timings of the events, Jamal became agitated, saying he did not remember details amid the confusion and terror of the moment. He and his son were under sustained fire for 45 minutes, he said, at the end of which he was seriously hurt and Muhammad was dead.

The pair were taken to the Shifa hospital in Gaza City, where local reporters insist they saw the child's corpse in the morgue. Jamal was evacuated by the Jordanian authorities to a hospital in Amman, where he spent around three months being treated for his injuries.

In the immediate aftermath of the shooting, Guardian correspondent Suzanne Goldenberg visited the scene. In her dispatch, she described "a circle of 15 bullet holes on a cinder block wall, and a smear of darkening blood … Aside from the circle of bullet holes – most of them below waist level – the expanse of wall is largely unscarred. This appeared to suggest that the Israeli fire was targeted at father and son."

Goldenberg quoted a volunteer in the ambulance attending the scene. "There was still some breath in [Muhammad] when we reached the ambulance, but when we opened the doors, they started shooting again," said Bassam al-Bilbays. The ambulance driver was shot dead.

An affidavit given by Abu Rahma, the France 2 cameraman, on 3 October 2000, said: "I can assert that shooting at the child Muhammad and his father Jamal came from the above-mentioned Israeli military outpost, as it was the only place from which shooting at the child and the father was possible. So, by logic and nature, my long experience of covering hot incidents and violent clashes, and my ability to distinguish sounds of shooting, I can confirm the child was intentionally and in cold blood shot dead and his father injured by the Israeli army."

These eyewitness descriptions were challenged by the Israeli report, which relied on military accounts, analysis commissioned of the footage and medical reports. It concluded that "contrary to the [France 2] report's claim that the boy was killed, the committee's review of the raw footage showed that in the final scenes, which were not broadcast by France 2, the boy is seen to be alive. The review revealed that there is no evidence that Jamal or the boy were wounded in the manner claimed in the report, and that the footage does not depict Jamal as having been badly injured. In contrast, there are numerous indications that the two were not struck by bullets at all."

Central to its conclusions are the final few seconds of footage showing Muhammad as he "raises his arm and turns his head in the direction of [the cameraman] in what are clearly intentional and controlled movements". Abu Rahma's statements, the report says, "have been shown to be replete with contradictions, inconsistencies and falsehoods … Many additional contradictions, inconsistencies and falsehoods are to be found in the accounts given by [France 2's Jerusalem bureau chief, Charles] Enderlin, Abu Rahma, Jamal al-Dura and Palestinian medical professionals, which together make up the al-Dura narrative accepted throughout the world".

It also asserted that "the boy labelled as Muhammad al-Dura in photos from the Shifa hospital autopsy, and the one borne aloft at what was allegedly Muhammad al-Dura's funeral, has different physical characteristics than the boy seen crouching behind the barrel in the France 2 footage."

The Israeli committee did not contact Jamal, Abu Rahma or Enderlin in the course of its eight-month review of the incident, although it included Abu Rahma's affidavit in the appendices of its report. In a statement to the Guardian, the Israeli ministry of intelligence and international affairs said the committee "requested information and materials from France 2, of which Mr Enderlin and Mr Abu Rahma are employees, via the French ambassador to Israel. In addition, the committee conducted an extensive review of dozens of interviews, statements and written accounts regarding the incident given by Mr al-Dura, Mr Abu Rahma and Mr Enderlin from 2000 until today."

In response, Enderlin said no request had ever been received through the French foreign ministry. "If they want to contact us, I am here in Jerusalem; I have an Israeli lawyer, they do not need to go through the French ambassador. We have said many times we are ready for any independent investigation following international standards."

All three said they were prepared to testify before an independent international commission of inquiry, and Jamal said he was willing to have his son's body exhumed for forensic and DNA analysis.

"All the answers are in the footage. The camera is trustworthy," Abu Rahma told the Guardian this week in his Gaza City office. He said he was not surprised at the Israeli committee's conclusions. "In whose interests is this committee? I am ready to stand, anywhere and any time, in front of an independent international commission."

The Israeli report spoke of "malignant narratives", "mendacious media coverage" and "repeated attempts [by local stringers] to stage or fabricate media items". Abu Rahma pointed to his 27 years experience as a journalist and cameraman, working for, among others, France 2 and CNN, and an award in 2009 from the Rory Peck Trust. "No one else has accused me of bias," he said.

France 2 is also engaged in a long-running libel case in Paris over its broadcast after a pro-Israel media monitor claimed the incident had been staged. A ruling was expected three days after Israel published its report, but has been deferred until 26 June.

Jamal said he had no idea at the time that he and his son were being filmed, and that he didn't see the broadcast until two months later. "These are lies from Israel. They are trying to hide the truth, but the truth is too strong to be hidden."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/23/israeli-report-denies-death-al-dura
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/17/naftali-bennett-two-state-solution-hopeless

The challenge, he added, was "how do we move forward from here, knowing that a Palestinian state within Israel is not possible ... We have to move from solving the problem to living with the problem." Annexation of "Area C", the 62% of the West Bank under total Israeli control, should proceed "as quickly as possible".

Bennett said: "The most important thing in the land of Israel is to build, build, build. It's important that there will be an Israeli presence everywhere.

"This land has been ours for 3,000 years. There was never a Palestinian state here and we were never occupiers. The house is ours and we are residents here, not the occupiers."
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/17/naftali-bennett-two-state-solution-hopeless

The challenge, he added, was "how do we move forward from here, knowing that a Palestinian state within Israel is not possible ... We have to move from solving the problem to living with the problem." Annexation of "Area C", the 62% of the West Bank under total Israeli control, should proceed "as quickly as possible".

Bennett said: "The most important thing in the land of Israel is to build, build, build. It's important that there will be an Israeli presence everywhere.

"This land has been ours for 3,000 years. There was never a Palestinian state here and we were never occupiers. The house is ours and we are residents here, not the occupiers."


Looking forward to the resident spin doctors explanation of this, and the previous article.
 
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=855&x_context=3

And Bennett et al are a danger to both Jews and Palestinians.


You do understand that the report that went against the Israelis blame for the shooting were produced by your Government?

Israel, and indeed Palestine both have an obsession with a propaganda war, but in this one, if Israel aren't lying. Where is he?

Muhammad-and-Jamal-al-Dur-008.jpg

In a scrubby cemetery in central Gaza, where crumbling tombstones nestle in the sand amid wind-blown rubbish, Jamal al-Dura crouched at the grave of his son Muhammad to recite the Muslim prayer for the dead. With the youngest of his 11 children at his side, he took his hands from his face, laid them on the marble slab and looked up, a bitter as well as a bereaved man.
"Israel says my son isn't dead. Can you imagine how this feels for a father who has lost his child? They have all the technology tools in the world. He's not dead? Then bring him to me," he said.
"I don't hate Israel, I hate the occupation. I am for peace. War is against humankind. I don't want others to lose their sons. Which parent doesn't want their children to grow up safe and secure?"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/23/israeli-report-denies-death-al-dura
 
The Palestinians will get nothing. The US and the current Israeli politicians are happy with the current situation. I cannot see anything changing the state of affairs that has prevailed in the last 50 years. The Palestinians have a stark choice do they fight on for nothing or try leave to somewhere who will accept them?
 
The Palestinians will get nothing. The US and the current Israeli politicians are happy with the current situation. I cannot see anything changing the state of affairs that has prevailed in the last 50 years. The Palestinians have a stark choice do they fight on for nothing or try leave to somewhere who will accept them?

They will never leave. The truth is that a stalemate will work in their favour in the long term. One state between the river and the sea will have an Arab majority, and an end to a democratic Jewish state.
 
They will never leave. The truth is that a stalemate will work in their favour in the long term. One state between the river and the sea will have an Arab majority, and an end to a democratic Jewish state.

Nor should they!
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/jun/18/israel-build-build-build-naftali-bennett

Indeed, Israel's settlements grew most during the Oslo peace process that began in 1993. Now, settlements have gone through another growth spurt and are on a seven-year high, which a senior Haaretz columnist has described as a spectacular suicide for Israel.

Few people paid attention to the news that during the first quarter of 2013, there were 865 housing starts in the settlements. That was a 176 percent increase over the parallel quarter last year and a 355 percent increase over the fourth quarter of 2012. Although settlers are only four out of every 100 Israelis, of every 100 housing starts this year, 8.5 were in the settlements. While in sovereign Israel the...

Its a winning policy.
 
http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/01/shared-genetic-heritage-of-jews-and.html

Kind of puts a spanner in the its our land as we were here first argument made by both sides - they were both here!

Who was here first is hardly a good argument when trying to find a way to a peaceful future. Fact is that there are two sets of people there, none of which is going to disappear. Having said that, the "both were there (to some extent)" argument is a good enough to undermine claims by Jewish extremeists on onwe hand, and the entire Palestinian establishment on the other...and their worldwide support. Those refer to the Zionism as colonialism and some kind of reward to the Jews who had suffered all kinds of persecutions in Europe. "Both were there" means that Zionism is the realisation of the Jews' right to return to their homeland and express their right for self-determination.

Here's hoping (again) that this can coexist with the political aspirations of another set of people which shares this land.
 
Who was here first is hardly a good argument when trying to find a way to a peaceful future. Fact is that there are two sets of people there, none of which is going to disappear. Having said that, the "both were there (to some extent)" argument is a good enough to undermine claims by Jewish extremeists on onwe hand, and the entire Palestinian establishment on the other...and their worldwide support. Those refer to the Zionism as a colonialism and some kind of reward to the Jews who had suffered all kinds of persecutions in Europe. "Both were there" means that Zionism is the realisation of the Jews' right to return to their homeland and express their right for self-determination.

Here's hoping (again) that this can coexist with the political aspirations of another set of people which shares this land.


Right given by whom? In the UK we have descendents from Angles and Saxons does that mean we have a right to return to those lands?
 
Right given by whom? In the UK we have descendents from Angles and Saxons does that mean we have a right to return to those lands?

These rights are earned rather than given. We've claimed our right back, and that right isn't any less legitimate than those of any other nation state.
 
How do you earn these rights?

I guess closing ranks when facing adversity (and we had a few over the years), not giving up on our tradition, coupled with the right statesmanship is what earned us reclaim the basic right of self-governance. Having been persecuted under foriegn rule for practically our entire history adds a moral justification if needed. Personaly I don't think it is though. I'm willing to give up our right for a nation state shorty after all the rest do.
 


My views on Israel have changed in the sense I've grown up. I'm still no fan of Zionism or any theocracy being honest, but BN is a scourge on society.
 
And the Jews? Can they stay too?


I couldn't give a shit what religion they are. Personally I think all religion is bullshit so I don't think any God promised any land to any people, but if Jewish people want to live there, of course they should be allowed. As long as the Arabs have 100% equal rights, and vice versa. Which doesn't happen.

I'm against extremism on both sides.
 
I couldn't give a shit what religion they are. Personally I think all religion is bullshit so I don't think any God promised any land to any people, but if Jewish people want to live there, of course they should be allowed. As long as the Arabs have 100% equal rights, and vice versa. Which doesn't happen.

I'm against extremism on both sides.


OK, so Arabs who live in Israel are Israeli citizens and have equal rights. So, is your problem the fact that Arabs who live in Palestinian territories aren't Israelis?
 
OK, so Arabs who live in Israel are Israeli citizens and have equal rights. So, is your problem the fact that Arabs who live in Palestinian territories aren't Israelis?


Arabs who live in Israel do not have equal rights. How can they possibly have equal rights in a 'Jewish State', unless this is a meaningless term? Evidently it is not a meaningless term. For example, Jews receive preferential treatment when it comes to purchasing and leasing land. Israel's 1.6 million Arabs are barred from buying or leasing 13% of the land in Israel, as it is reserved only for Jews. And away from specific legal rights, the nature of a Jewish State means that those within it who are not considered Jewish are, as the name suggests, never going to be able to feel fully part of the state.
 
OK, so Arabs who live in Israel are Israeli citizens and have equal rights. So, is your problem the fact that Arabs who live in Palestinian territories aren't Israelis?


That's a lie. That's not even a fact the Israeli Government claim.
 
Arabs who live in Israel do not have equal rights. How can they possibly have equal rights in a 'Jewish State', unless this is a meaningless term? Evidently it is not a meaningless term. For example, Jews receive preferential treatment when it comes to purchasing and leasing land. Israel's 1.6 million Arabs are barred from buying or leasing 13% of the land in Israel, as it is reserved only for Jews. And away from specific legal rights, the nature of a Jewish State means that those within it who are not considered Jewish are, as the name suggests, never going to be able to feel fully part of the state.

So, I live in a country with a bit of a dodgy past to say the least. Having said that, we have one of the most forward thinking fair constitutions in the world. Keeping this in mind, white South Africans are legally disadvantaged under affirmative action and black economic empowerment laws. Yet South Africa is still considered a free and fair country.


In addition, white South Africans make up a relatively small proportion of the South African population - a much smaller proportion than Israeli Arabs. Black South Africans are and will always be the majority in South Africa. Does this mean white South Africans can't fully feel part of the state?
 
So, I live in a country with a bit of a dodgy past to say the least. Having said that, we have one of the most forward thinking fair constitutions in the world. Keeping this in mind, white South Africans are legally disadvantaged under affirmative action and black economic empowerment laws. Yet South Africa is still considered a free and fair country.


In addition, white South Africans make up a relatively small proportion of the South African population - a much smaller proportion than Israeli Arabs. Black South Africans are and will always be the majority in South Africa. Does this mean white South Africans can't fully feel part of the state?


South Africa doesn't refer to itself as a black state, in fact it goes out of its way to ensure that it is a state of all citizens. Being a minority is not the reason why Arab-Israelis are made to feel as though they can never be fully part of Israel, so I wouldn't accept your analogy with white South Africans. Arab Israelis are made to feel like outsiders because the law treats them like second class citizens, and perhaps most importantly, the prevailing concept of the 'Jewish State' does too.

Laws in South Africa that you claim discriminate against white people are hardly comparable to Israel's laws that discriminate against Arabs. Firstly, whites in South Africa are still economically advantaged, and black Africans as a group are still economically disadvantaged, and there still exists an institutionalized prejudice against them. Positive discrimination laws exist to level the playing field. In Israel, Arabs are disadvantaged to Jews, both economically and politically. Discriminatory laws in Israel exist to further the political and economic dominance of the Jewish population under the concept of the 'Jewish state', at the expense of the Arabs. For this reason they are more comparable to laws which discriminated against black people in Apartheid South Africa than the laws which apparently discriminate against white people in SA today.