Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

[holyland red]

Though the question is not on me, I will reply on it (don't think I am doing any harm if I do it).

While Hamas's rockets have make situation worse, IMO in the end of the day it was just an excuse by Israel. For the smallest incident Israel makes sure to pay it 100 times worse to Palestinians.

You are definitely right.

Considering the Hamas is not interested in PEACE with the State of Israel, what would be the alternative for achieving some sort of normal life here, even if temporarily? Obviously, any agreement under these circumstance has to guarantee that Hamas will not increase its capability ahead of the next round of violence.

 

[holyland red]

I've never understood this argument.

The UK for starters aren't building illegal settlements in other people's lands, nor are they forcing people to endure humiliating checkpoints....in their own lands, nor are they forcing people within the confines of whats essentially a giant open prison. They did get involved a war in the region, but unsurprisingly were fired back at by people who didn't appreciate their militaristic presence.

If people ask me what would I do if rockets were being fired at me - well the first thing is I'd do is why the hell they're being fired me, and 99.9% of the time there's always a reason for it.

If 0.1% were shot before the creation of Israel then you see eye to eye with Sunni fundamentalists. That's a start.

 

[holyland red]

Yes Orduck, if you read all my posts you can see that I don't have any sympathy for Hamas (well maybe a little). Anyway I think that the main problem is Israel and it's occupation in Gaza (1)and West Bank, and Hamas is more of a sort of counter-reacting. Also, firing rockets in civilian targets from Israel cannot be excused because Hamas fired rockets in them(2) (which if I am not mistaken resulted in 3 deaths)..

(1) It isn't occupied
(2) Well the latter is a war crime and the first isn't, as long as Israel fires back at military targets which it does. I don't know about excuses, but that's international law so often being cited on here.

While I agree that Hamas are idiots (because in the end of the day they're only making things worse), I think that Israel has a much bigger part of fault here, and if nothing else Israel's government is even worse.

So you don't agree with Hamas not for their war crimes, but because of the backlash.

 

[Amir]

Obviously, any agreement under these circumstance has to guarantee that Hamas will not increase its capability ahead of the next round of violence.

Which it clearly will not. Had it not been for IDF's early action, there would have been much more fire towards Tel Aviv. Next time it may be different.

 

[holyland red]

BBC’s Jon Donnison Tweets malicious fauxtography

 

[holyland red]

Well, my point is not that much different. Israel's strategy is evil and very disproportional. Hamas are idiots and they are doing things worse. Anyway, this situation cannot be hope to change if Israel doesn't really leave for good the occupied territories.

The last point is something I have entirely different opinion. If Israel was some other country, IMO the West would have done something more to stop the war, and not encourage them continuing it.

The Arabs (and apparently some Irish people) want Israel removed.

The stopped fighting conventional wars against Israel.

Instead, they fire rockets at Israeli civilians.

Retaliating against Arab fire is pretty much legitimate, I'm sure you'd agree (well, international law does).

Israel is a prosperous state that invests heavily in both passive (bomb shelters are mandatory in the construction of every appartment in Israel) and active (Arrow, Iron Dome systems; others to follow shortly) defense mechanisms. These result in disproportionate casualty count on both side deapite the disproportionate intents- the Arabs want to maximise death toll on the Israeli side, whereas Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties as much as it can.

 

[Neutral]

Anderson Cooper telling a stupid bitch off

The dumb cow, just saw Israel, and immediately went to the 'oh look everyone is biased' card.

 

[holyland red]

the best option for the Palestinians is to use the media, the UN.

How many in the West still see Palestinians as terrorists? After this episode probrably even more.

They are in a terrible position.

They have to appeal through the media that they want to come to talks with Israel with ethe US as a mediator. Put PR pressure on Israel.

Exactly, but they still wouldn't. I'd argue that people fighting their corner even when they are committing war crimes doesn't help their cause. This vocal minority makes them stubborn, thinking time is on their side.

 

[holyland red]

Nope. Israel tactics are working - lets be honest why do they need a two state solution?

You will never get everyone to agree.

The Palestinians want to start discussions beginning with the borders in 1967 - not going to happen. The right of return of the palestinian refugees is not going to happen.

The Palestinians will never accept the state of Israel.

You think after all this struggle Israel will just trade land for supposed peace? The current slow enroachment and control of the West Bank will continue and the West bank will fall further into Israel control - its a tactic thats working.

Perhaps Plech might be right in the long term ultimately success in the territorial struggle will be a pyhrric victory.

Bollocks maps. Most areas in green were not Palestinian owned, but leased by the Ottoman Empire. It's no longer here despite Erdogan resurrection attmpts.

 

[Sultan]

Muslims on this board will not like what I'm quoting here. However, I'll still go ahead.

Why this oppression?

"As you are (as far as your actions are) so will be the rulers that will soon be set over you." (Mishkat)

 

[Sultan]

I urge Muslims themselves to change for the better before expecting others to change their attitudes towards us.

 

[holyland red]

BBC’s Jon Donnison Tweets malicious fauxtography

The latest from this BBC "journalist":

 

[Chabon]

Most in the world find israel distasteful already, and to be honest the US would send some strong words but long term the US won't distance itself from israel if israel waged sherman-esque total warfare in gaza or worse.

If Israelis are smart they'll be very concerned about the various headlines this week about both Obama in East Asia and the future of US oil production.

 

[Sultan]

One innocent killed (Israeli or Palestinian) is not worth all the land in the world.

 

[Neutral]

Muslims on this board will not like what I'm quoting here. However, I'll still go ahead.

Why this oppression?

"As you are (as far as your actions are) so will be the rulers that will soon be set over you." (Mishkat)

Why not? I've been saying this since I joined this forum.

Every issue, be it Palestine, Terrorism, Extremism etc etc...we need to step back from the politics of it all, and look at ourselves in the mirror.

 

[Sultan]

Why not?

When emotions are running high, women and children being killed it's not exactly easy to think with a level head. Especially for those who are actually in the firing line in Israel and Palestine.

 

[holyland red]

One innocent killed (Israeli or Palestinian) is not worth all the land in the world.

Too bad this idea isn't shared by the Muslims involved, a democratically-elected Muslim regime may I add.

 

[Sultan]

Too bad this idea isn't shared by the Muslims involved, a democratically-elected Muslim regime may I add.

It's not just the Muslims who need to address my point. If you look on the previous page many democratically Israeli politicians are sending out pretty horrific sound bites. You guys (Palestinians and Isrealis') have been living this for decades - a slow and systematic poisoning of hearts and against each other is to be expected. I'm not exactly sure how you get out of this cycle of hatred.

 

[Sultan]

Personally I'd go with Ghandi approach in this particular conflict.

If the Palestinian leadership went with his non-violent philosophy they would be a lot better off than they are at present. Present day conflicts is not about who kills most and captures most land. Winning the PR war is just as vital.

 

[holyland red]

Forum of top nine ministers has decided that Israel will attempt to reach a lull

While the massive firing of rockets at Israel's south continues alongside IDF airstrikes in Gaza it appears Operation Pillar of Defense may be drawing to an end. A senior state official said that the forum of top nine ministers has decided that Israel will attempt to reach a lull.

"The goal is to reach a ceasefire and discontinue the operation," the official said. The ministers discussed the Egyptian proposal for a truce until 4 am. An official statement about the contents of the meeting has yet to be issued.

 

[holyland red]

It's not just the Muslims who need to address my point. If you look on the previous page many democratically Israeli politicians are sending out pretty horrific sound bites. You guys (Palestinians and Isrealis') have been living this for decades - a slow and systematic poisoning of hearts and against each other is to be expected. I'm not exactly sure how you get out of this cycle of hatred.

How about recognizing each other's right for independent nation states? Sounds like a fair start to me before we even argue about drawing lines on the map.

 

[Sultan]

How does it feel to defend something you don't believe in, to claim rights you know you don't have, to justify crimes as self defence but you know in fact are blood thirst and to run a way from a history you know you'll face again. sucks being a zionist, right stealland_red?

With respect brother, most Israelis' genuinely believe it's their land, and if it's not they need to annex the same for security reasons. They don't think they are stealing, and only getting back what was theirs.

 

[Sultan]

How about recognizing each other's right for independent nation states? Sounds like a fair start to me before we even argue about drawing lines on the map.

No arguments from me...

I'm not even sure anyone needs to get so hung about Israel existing. It's a fact of life. That argument has long gone.

 

[Sultan]

I'm not sure why I couldn't help myself getting involved in this thread again.

 

[holyland red]

No arguments from me...

I'm not even sure anyone needs to get so hung about Israel existing. It's a fact of life. That argument has long gone.

I wish it did. I reckon Muslim "allies" and the JakeCs of this world prevent the Palestinians reaching that conclusion.

 

[holyland red]

I'm not sure why I couldn't help myself getting involved in this thread again.

As ever, the Chosen People being chosen again!

 

[Commadus]

Bollocks maps. Most areas in green were not Palestinian owned, but leased by the Ottoman Empire. It's no longer here despite Erdogan resurrection attmpts.

Revisionism? So show me some maps then that show the true picture as everyone I have seen its pretty much the same.

Btw Israel doesn't want Peace as it doesn't need or require peace. You are just being faceitous. Israel tactics are working - Why should they settle for two state solution. With the upperhand their is no need to compromise. You only get worked up because you feel its a just fight whilst others disagree. But the cold reality is Israel is succeeding in doing what many countries have done in the past and will continue to do so in the future.

I posted before a solution - just buy out the Palestinians. This whole territorial issue is just one about assets.

 

[Revan]

You are definitely right.

Considering the Hamas is not interested in PEACE with the State of Israel, what would be the alternative for achieving some sort of normal life here, even if temporarily? Obviously, any agreement under these circumstance has to guarantee that Hamas will not increase its capability ahead of the next round of violence.

The HAMAS is not interested in peace. Israel is not interested too.

You are definitely right.

Considering the Hamas is not interested in PEACE with the State of Israel, what would be the alternative for achieving some sort of normal life here, even if temporarily? Obviously, any agreement under these circumstance has to guarantee that Hamas will not increase its capability ahead of the next round of violence.

For a start, Israel to really leave Gaza alone and not send them in Middle Age, to don't make economical blockades. Of course a signing of peace which will end in both states knowing each other.

(1) It isn't occupied
(2) Well the latter is a war crime and the first isn't, as long as Israel fires back at military targets which it does. I don't know about excuses, but that's international law so often being cited on here.




So you don't agree with Hamas not for their war crimes, but because of the backlash.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it's not that Israel has left Gaza and it's not intervening in every second of their lives. Add to that every some years a brutal occupations and economical blockades.

I am not agreeing with Hamas at all, they are violent organization who is doing a lot of harm. But that doesn't mean that I agree with Israel too.

Firing rockets into military targets you say, but the majority of victims are civilians (childs, womens)

The Arabs (and apparently some Irish people) want Israel removed.

The stopped fighting conventional wars against Israel.

Instead, they fire rockets at Israeli civilians.

Retaliating against Arab fire is pretty much legitimate, I'm sure you'd agree (well, international law does).

Israel is a prosperous state that invests heavily in both passive (bomb shelters are mandatory in the construction of every appartment in Israel) and active (Arrow, Iron Dome systems; others to follow shortly) defense mechanisms. These result in disproportionate casualty count on both side deapite the disproportionate intents- the Arabs want to maximise death toll on the Israeli side, whereas Israel tries to avoid civilian casualties as much as it can.

Jewish people have right for a state (it's not that you are not from Earth). That state should be in their historical territory and I am not against it. But, as you say it was defined by international law and Israel should return in borders of 1947 which will never happened. Until then we will see these scenes everyday.

Don't get me wrong and I am not in Arab side, because they have a lot to blame for situation too. But I don't buy the argument which is in West's media that they are all for blaming. Israel is doing even worse things then them.

 

[holyland red]

Revisionism? So show me some maps then that show the true picture as everyone I have seen its pretty much the same..

I doubt there are any on the web, but I refer you to the Israeli Supreme Court ruling regarding the Bedouin claims for vast areas in the Negev Desert which comprises of most of the territory painted green in that map on the left.

Btw Israel doesn't want Peace as it doesn't need or require peace. You are just being faceitous. Israel tactics are working - Why should they settle for two state solution. With the upperhand their is no need to compromise. You only get worked up because you feel its a just fight whilst others disagree. But the cold reality is Israel is succeeding in doing what many countries have done in the past and will continue to do so in the future..

BS. Israel is the sum of its citizens, and the vast majority are interested in peace. There is also a loud violent minority that is intersted in Jewish supremacy between the river and the sea but then there is an even larger minority interested in eliminating the state's Jewish identity. Ironically, both these extremes drive Israel into a one-state solution which would look like the Balkans at their worst.

I vote for Likud, considered as politically "right wing". I'd accept the utopian genuine peaceful two-state solution tomorrow morning if offered one. I know most other Likud voters would.

 

[Excal]

Not enough. It's been over four months since JakeC posted in the Syria thread. I don't want to jump to conclusions but that says a lot about his character.

Yes it does, because everyone knows that when you want to help out an oppressed people, you post about it on a football board, ergo if Jake hasn't posted in the Syria thread, it's because he doesn't care about Syria, the dirty leftist,

 

[holyland red]

The HAMAS is not interested in peace. Israel is not interested too..

See the above post

For a start, Israel to really leave Gaza alone and not send them in Middle Age, to don't make economical blockades. Of course a signing of peace which will end in both states knowing each other

Correct me if I am wrong, but it's not that Israel has left Gaza and it's not intervening in every second of their lives. Add to that every some years a brutal occupations and economical blockades...

When Israel is attacked I expect my government to respond brutally. That's what we have a state and an army for.

Hamas declares its intensions to destroy Israel, hence the Gaza Naval blockade fits well with international law.

I agree with the "leave Gaza alone" sentiment though. We should pull the plug on their Israeli water and electricity supply. Every time they fire a rocket/bullet.

Are you aware of the fact that we supply them with water and electricity? Yes, they're firing rockets and we supply them with their basic needs.

I am not agreeing with Hamas at all, they are violent organization who is doing a lot of harm. But that doesn't mean that I agree with Israel too.

Firing rockets into military targets you say, but the majority of victims are civilians (childs, womens)...

Both Hamas and Hizballah deliberately use their respective populations as human shields (war crime #1) in order to launch rockets at civilian populations here (war crime #2). Judging by the graphics on this thread they actually have a good reason to do that. It's up to you to make up your mind which side you're on. We don't have that luxury. When our kids hear a siren they have 15 seconds to run for their lives because there is a rain of crude missiles in the sky.

Jewish people have right for a state (it's not that you are not from Earth). That state should be in their historical territory and I am not against it. But, as you say it was defined by international law and Israel should return in borders of 1947 which will never happened. Until then we will see these scenes everyday.

I wish this simple logic sinks in on the other side one day. As for the 1947 borders- never gonna happen. You start wars of extermination and lose territory, too fecking bad. Backed by international law. The same applies for the 1967 borders, but if common sense prevails, those are the base for any future lasting agreement.

Don't get me wrong and I am not in Arab side, because they have a lot to blame for situation too. But I don't buy the argument which is in West's media that they are all for blaming. Israel is doing even worse things then them.

It's easy to get you wrong based on your previous posts. I disagree with you regarding the Western media too.

 

[Revan]

See the above post



When Israel is attacked I expect my government to respond brutally. That's what we have a state and an army for.

Hamas declares its intensions to destroy Israel, hence the Gaza Naval blockade fits well with international law.

I agree with the "leave Gaza alone" sentiment though. We should pull the plug on their Israeli water and electricity supply. Every time they fire a rocket/bullet.

Are you aware of the fact that we supply them with water and electricity? Yes, they're firing rockets and we supply them with their basic needs.

No, I wasn't aware of that. This could be a solution, when they fire rocket you have every right to not supply them with their basic needs.

I wish this simple logic sinks in on the other side one day. As for the 1947 borders- never gonna happen. You start wars of extermination and lose territory, too fecking bad. Backed by international law. The same applies for the 1967 borders, but if common sense prevails, those are the base for any future lasting agreement.

That is a big problem, because if there is any hope of peace then both sides should make compromises. Arabs should recognize Israel as an indipendent state and all organization that have in their program to destroy Israel should not be legal (by Arabs because in the West they are not legal even now). Israel should make compromises too, even if you win the war that doesn't mean that you have right to get territory from the enemy. But as you say, it never gonna happen.

It's easy to get you wrong based on your previous posts. I disagree with you regarding the Western media too.

I am not in any side here, I just want that every time I see the news to don't see how many children, women and civilians have been killed (regardless of their nationality or religion, in the end of the day I am neither Jewish, Israeli, Arab or Muslim), and let's face it most of the times the victims are civilians not military.

About Western Media and more importantly Western politics they are very one-sided and totally blame Arabs. Most of the times, for a war to happen there should be 2 nations/fractions willing to fight.

 

[holyland red]

About Western Media and more importantly Western politics they are very one-sided and totally blame Arabs. Most of the times, for a war to happen there should be 2 nations/fractions willing to fight.

Well, that's obviously over-simplistic. No need to get back to Nazi Germany to emphasize this.

 

[Revan]

Well, that's obviously over-simplistic. No need to get back to Nazi Germany to emphasize this.

For that I used 'Most of the times'.

 

[ha_rooney]

Looks like a truce may be agreed today. If agreed, how long it lasts for remains to be seen.

After the war with Lebanon, didn't the UN deploy some peacekeeping force on the border? They should do something similar this time round to ensure both sides abide by a truce and, hopefully, give time for a longer and more stable peace agreement to be made.

 

[Commadus]

I doubt there are any on the web, but I refer you to the Israeli Supreme Court ruling regarding the Bedouin claims for vast areas in the Negev Desert which comprises of most of the territory painted green in that map on the left.

So you have nothing to back your statement with.

BS. Israel is the sum of its citizens, and the vast majority are interested in peace. There is also a loud violent minority that is intersted in Jewish supremacy between the river and the sea but then there is an even larger minority interested in eliminating the state's Jewish identity. Ironically, both these extremes drive Israel into a one-state solution which would look like the Balkans at their worst.

I vote for Likud, considered as politically "right wing". I'd accept the utopian genuine peaceful two-state solution tomorrow morning if offered one. I know most other Likud voters would.

Why would you want to trade land for peace? You have no need to compromise - you have the upper hand and you are negotiating from a position of control. You are being facetious towing the two state solution. It has the veneer of being fair - where the Israelis and Palestinians have each get a state but why would that create peace?

The Red Indians got a tough deal and I suspect the Palestinians will do so also. The victors write history as so well put by McNamara in the Fog of War.

 

[sammsky1]

‎"We have enough religion to hate each other but not enough to love each other"

-Jonathan Swift.

 

[sammsky1]

I'm not sure why I couldn't help myself getting involved in this thread again.

Yep, im out too. Been round the loop on this one too many times.

Same old does not however soften the deep sadness and horror I feel.

Still, one day, a resolution will be found for the Palestinians who had their lands stolen.

 

[Sultan]

‎"We have enough religion to hate each other but not enough to love each other"

-Jonathan Swift.

If we had true faith, which is basically love of Gods creation then the word hate would never come into equation.

-Sultan

 

[peterstorey]

I'd have thought Israel should negotiate a settlement now when they are in a position of relative strength. Who knows if their bargaining position will be as strong in 10 or 20 years time.