No no no! They are friendly rockets for a firework display of some sort
How dare Israel try and defend itself!Revan, you think the UK or any other country for that matter would not retaliate in a similar way?
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
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No no no! They are friendly rockets for a firework display of some sort
How dare Israel try and defend itself!Revan, you think the UK or any other country for that matter would not retaliate in a similar way?
I think its safe to assume they are. Whether its a smart thing to do - probably not, but again its also probably safe to assume its down to desperation as opposed to military guile.
So Hamas actually and really wants to kill people, right? That's the intention behind firing rockets. Correct?
No no no! They are friendly rockets for a firework display of some sort
Revan, you think the UK or any other country for that matter would not retaliate in a similar way?
Dunno mate. I am not saying that Hamas is good or something like that, and very likely if they had Israel's strength they would have done the same.
Anyway defending itself and overreacting IMO are 2 different things. Firing rockets against the population and killing hundred of innocents non-military people is not defending itself in my book.
To my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong), their desperation is down to their dodgy leadership spunking all their limited money on new and inventive ways to try and destroy Israel?
Only reason for the civilian deaths is because the cowards who fire the rockets hide where they KNOW there will be collateral damage by any sort of retaliation.
I'm not saying Israel is free of any guilt they have made plenty of bad calls but I very much doubt these civilians would be dead if there were no rockets being fired somehow...
Yes. What else could it be?
I just don't believe it's down to desperation. It didn't work in 2009, why should it now? And why not bomb Egypt for a change?
I've never understood this argument.
The UK for starters aren't building illegal settlements in other people's lands, nor are they forcing people to endure humiliating checkpoints....in their own lands, nor are they forcing people within the confines of whats essentially a giant open prison. They did get involved a war in the region, but unsurprisingly were fired back at by people who didn't appreciate their militaristic presence.
If people ask me what would I do if rockets were being fired at me - well the first thing is I'd do is why the hell they're being fired me, and 99.9% of the time there's always a reason for it.
Yeh, I'd not thought of that. I was thinking the whole "mediator between two sides in a hopeless situation" side, not the "acting as a peace envoy in the very region you helped to violently destablise" side!
The way I see it the desperation sources from a combination of blockading the GS, the ongoing theft of land in the WB, and diplomatic efforts in achieving statehood being constantly shafted. Its that desperation which had led to the election of Hamas and their extreme doctrine. As I said there's no real logic to it which is why I'm unsurprised that the rockets didn't cease since 2009, but again many Gazans will feel its the only way could hit back, irrespective of how ineffective it is and how deadly the repercussions will most likely be. People with little to lose tend to adopt dangerous reasonings.
Not sure what you mean by Egypt.
Still plenty of checkpoints in Northern Ireland
I didn't want to open that can of worms, not in this thread at least anyway
Nah, they didn't need an "excuse". Hamas are violent fecking idiots, and if they were the only people killed in this little exercise by Israel then I'd not be unhappy. They do the work towards peace unimaginable harm and we'd be better off without them.
The way I see it Hamas are a symptom, not the underlying problem. You take care of the latter and the former should begin to to lose its effect.
I think their reasons must be to do with internal politics, including b/w them and other militant groups like IJ. And maybe Iranian demands. It only seems to strengthen Netanyahu's hand so I don't see how it benefits them coming up to an Israeli election, unless they want Netanyahu there.
They know exactly what's going to happen - the Israelis will take out their infrastructure and kill loads of people while hitting as many rockets/tunnels as they can. They also know it will generate a load of outrage across the world, which at least strengthens their hand in the PR battle. But everyone except the yanks already hates Israel, I don't really see what good it does them in the short-term.
They must have their reasons.
They know exactly what's going to happen - the Israelis will take out their infrastructure and kill loads of people while hitting as many rockets/tunnels as they can. They also know it will generate a load of outrage across the world, which at least strengthens their hand in the PR battle. But everyone except the yanks already hates Israel, I don't really see what good it does them in the short-term.
They must have their reasons.
I think a lot of them are genuinely blinded by hatred.
Yes Orduck, if you read all my posts you can see that I don't have any sympathy for Hamas (well maybe a little). Anyway I think that the main problem is Israel and it's occupation in Gaza and West Bank, and Hamas is more of a sort of counter-reacting. Also, firing rockets in civilian targets from Israel cannot be excused because Hamas fired rockets in them (which if I am not mistaken resulted in 3 deaths).
While I agree that Hamas are idiots (because in the end of the day they're only making things worse), I think that Israel has a much bigger part of fault here, and if nothing else Israel's government is even worse.
Sure, but why fire on TA and Jerusalem now in particular?
I wouldn't disagree with that being the prime reason the Hamas 'high command' have decided to persist with the rocket fire, but for the rank and file of Hamas, as well as the ordinary Palestinian, I think the desperation is more environmental.
But the point is they have a lot to lose! They have to lose their lives, or the lives of their children every single time their elected government fires a rocket at Israel. And that's just what I don't get, it's not as if the last time they tried it was a century ago and the present generation think ok let's try it again, maybe it will work this time (whatever that might be)- it happened only three years ago and resulted in 1000+ casualties. This is how much they have to lose.
There is obviously absolutely no logic to this. Unless they are completely blinded by hatred and the only reason for their existence is to see an Israeli get killed, someday, somehow. This is why I don't buy the desperation argument, a desperate person would try anything to improve their situation, but Hamas is trying absolutely nothing new but always the same violent method of achieving.. I don't even know what. They cannot possibly be that deluded as to think they could win by shooting their stupid rockets. It's mind boggling.
As for Egypt- why is Egypt not opening their border and releasing their Arab comrades from the 'prison'? If Egypt is just as wicked as Israel, surely putting some pressure on the Egyptian government (via bombing, suicide attacks, etc) and trying to get the world's attention to their cause might also be an option in their desperation to escape the imprisonment?
I find this whole proportionality meme strange.
My take on Israeli strategy, now and particularly in 06 and 08, is that it's collective punishment. They can't really fight an enemy hiding among its populace, not fight them properly. So they take out what military personnel and facilities they can, while sending a message that says, "If you attack our cities we will blow the absolute shit out of your infrastructure and do as much damage as we can, within acceptable levels of international outrage, until daddy tells us to stop."
As a strategy, I think it's basically evil. But I also think it's what pretty much every state does if the guys next door are shooting rockets at its major cities - irrespective of casualties. The reality is that politicians are accountable to their people, and if retaliation is a military option people won't accept anything less. It's what Russia did in Chechyna when terrorists hit Moscow, it's what Sri Lanka did with the Tigers. America had a city attacked 12 years ago and they're still bombing several entire countries.
It's only with Israel, and maybe America, that we get this level of coverage, pictures of kids with missing limbs on football message-boards, etc. Which is for the best I suppose, if it happens to reduce casualties in this one conflict.
Whether Hamas are justified in bombing Israel or not, it's stupid.
Well, my point is not that much different. Israel's strategy is evil and very disproportional. Hamas are idiots and they are doing things worse. Anyway, this situation cannot be hope to change if Israel doesn't really leave for good the occupied territories.
The last point is something I have entirely different opinion. If Israel was some other country, IMO the West would have done something more to stop the war, and not encourage them continuing it.
I doubt they're stupid so I assume they have their reasons. Partly it may be to keep the struggle alive in the West and the Arab street, since Israel withdrew its army and settlements 7 years ago and a partial siege isn't all that newsworthy.
But it's probably more to do with complex factional reasons, internal and external.
What they are is not stupid but extraordinarily cynical. Their strategy actually involves their own women and children dying.
Yes and you would of thought even after all this time that they would of learnt that anything they dish out they get back tenfold....
Absolutely, I'd agree there's no logic to this rocket fire as its unlikely to achieve anything productive, both in the short and long term. As to this argument as to whether they have much to lose, well its a sensitive issue. Just as the pro-Israeli side would argue that most of us wouldn't know what its like to live under the fear of Hamas rocket fire, you could also adapt that argument for the Palestinians and similarly suggest that none of us are aware of what its like living as a Palestinian in somewhere like Gaza.
For the most part its impoverished, underdeveloped and generally an unpleasant place to live. Yes, Hamas must take the blame for that with their stupid budgeting priorities, but I also think the blockading of it certainly plays a part too. I'm not suggesting these hardships justify the notion of saying "feck it, lets fire a few rockets" and compromising the safety of your family and your people. But I can understand why it makes extremist factions like Hamas appealing for such people., with Hamas of course being the perpetrators of these rocket attacks. I'm sure blind hatred comes into it too, but that hatred hasn't come from nowhere.
I agree, Egypt could do a lot more to alleviate the situation, and Palestinians have indeed clashed with Israelis on the Sinai, although infrequently. Though I think in the grand scheme of things they don't see Egypt as an aggressor like they see Israel, and furthermore I don't see an Islamist faction like Hamas firing rockets at an Arab, predominantly-Muslim nation like Egypt.
It's pretty stupid. If you are the underdog you have to play your cards wisely. If you start firing hundreds of missiles into Israli towns, what do can you expect other than military retaliation?
Really? At the risk of being accused of what-aboutism, Russia killed probably between one and two hundred thousand people in Chechnya not long ago. Sri Lanka killed 20,000 or so in its recent extinguishing of the Tamil Tigers. Sudanese militias have killed perhaps 400,000 minority non-Arabs. How many have died in Tibet? No-one knows, few care. I mean, in the 70s, the Jordanians massacred several thousand Palestinians, mostly civilians, and no-one outside the ME cared.
What would you do from a Palestinian perspective? Not saying rockets are the only option, just curious as to how you think they could 'play their cards wisely'.
the best option for the Palestinians is to use the media, the UN.
How many in the West still see Palestinians as terrorists? After this episode probrably even more.
They are in a terrible position.
They have to appeal through the media that they want to come to talks with Israel with ethe US as a mediator. Put PR pressure on Israel.
How many in the West still see Palestinians as terrorists? After this episode probrably even more.
They are in a terrible position.
They have to appeal through the media that they want to come to talks with Israel with ethe US as a mediator. Put PR pressure on Israel.
Who the feck could do something against Russia or China? There are cases when World doesn't care (especially in third world countries) but there are many other cases when West cared (Bosna, Kosovo, Libya).
The UN is not an option so long as the US vetos every initiative they use within it. They can achieve symbolic victories such as being admitted into UNESCO, but anything substantial will most likely get vetoed.
In the long term you could say it is costing Israel its legitimacy. Thirty years ago few outside the ME questioned its right to exist as a Jewish state. Now you just need to look at this one thread to see it's an open question, if not currently a very practical one.
In the end, Israel's legitimacy is the name of the game here.
A government that cared about its people's welfare in the here-and-now could get rid of the siege, gradually, by stopping hostilities/importing weapons. Israel doesn't want Gaza, and it doesn't want to lay siege to it, it just wants it to feck off.
But that means surrendering its dream of a nation in all of Palestine. And it was elected on a platform of carrying the fight to Israel (as well as not being corrupt like Fatah).
They no Israel just want an excuse, don't give it to them, and if you do, make sure you can win.
But The Israelis are worse
Wouldn't a two state solution be in the best interests of Israel? I don't get it...why can't everyone get around the table and make it happen for everyone's sake. Seems to be far too much finger pointing, it's almost school ground stuff.
I'm not smart enough to answer that question. But obviously neither is Hamas.
How about accepting the reality of the Jewish state and getting on with it? How about a little practical politics - try to make the lives of their constituents better - try to give them a future?
True. I guess there's a difference when the country doing the shit-kicking-out-of is an ally, and when terrorism is seen as the proximate cause.
The Gandhi way, never retaliate, be prepared to lose your loved ones in the process and use peace and compassion to win your war. As an underdog, it is the only way to win but it will never ever happen. No one in this age can mobilize the crowd to undergo that kind of sacrifice.