I guess it the nature of that 'future' that's at stake. A lot of people surely voted for Hamas because they had a reputation for efficiency and clean hands (in the corruption sense) so they thought they'd run things better. But a lot of others voted for them because they thought they'd carry the fight, with a view to the long-term 'future' of a state in all of Israel/Palestine.
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
I guess it the nature of that 'future' that's at stake. A lot of people surely voted for Hamas because they had a reputation for efficiency and clean hands (in the corruption sense) so they thought they'd run things better. But a lot of others voted for them because they thought they'd carry the fight, with a view to the long-term 'future' of a state in all of Israel/Palestine.
Yes, but that worked against the British, I suspect it wouldn't had it been against the Japanese.
That's racist
I got it!
LSD!
LSD!
Hypothetically, had Palestine had Gandhi as a leader, you don't think they would have been in much much better state than they are now? I believe he would reasoned and achieved a two-state solution easily. I am sure there are peaceful people in Israel who would pressure the extreme military nut jobs to stop the relentless attack if there's no retaliation.
Definitely. If Israel wouldn't have been US little brother, I doubt that they would had this commodity of doing even worse than Hamas. But instead, Hamas is terrorists while Israel is doing things right.
I'm not sure it would'be been possible to have a Gandhi type leader of the Palestinians...mainly because the conditions in British India were hardly a kin to Gaza. But yeah, their leaders need to bite the bullet...and stop the missile attacks, the response is always going to be disproportionate. Would the Palestinians see that as a weakness, though?
Agreed.. Both sides are just as pathetic as the other. I hope the day comes where they finally realise that violence only brings more violence but there is more chance of me suddenly sprouting wings and being able to fly....
Well if Gandhi was in power in Gaza there wouldn't be any fighting anyway. And if he was in power in Israel there wouldn't be any Israel.
Gandhi's strategy was good for that place and time but it's hardly a universal panacea. It's a good job he wasn't in charge of the Allies in WWII.
decades of hate. There is no trust. That is why teh US needs to broker a peace. But to do that the two parties who will benefit form it must want it.
Yes. The rocket attacks by the Palestinians must stop first. It is a no win for them.
Yes. The rocket attacks by the Palestinians must stop first. It is a no win for them.
I find this whole symptom/cause, proactive/reactive talk to be complete bollocks. Everything is both a symptom and a cause. Israel itself is the symptom of Jewish oppression throughout history and more specifically the holocaust... and in turn Nazi Germany was the symptom of the treatment of Germany after WW1... and so on and so forth.
Everyone should take responsibility for their own actions.
Yes, there needs to be another round of negotiations similar to the Taba summit. Hopefully there will be more political time to get an agreement on this occasion.
I have no idea who broke the ceasefire on this occasion, but based on what happened in 2008/9 it's likely to be Israel who instigated some kind of aggression that escalated into a breakdown of the agreement.
That's the lemming version of the future.
It's the job of practical politicians to wean their people from impractical dreams. After the Republic of Ireland landed violently on the floor of the nation state maternity theatre, one of its first post-natal acts was to declare its unswerving commitment to the achievement of National Unity. That aim was written into its constitution, where it remained for most of the century. But successive Irish governments did nothing to turn that dream into reality. Until it was quietly smothered with a scented, embroidered pillow as part of the NI agreement.
The palestinians have lost several generations to their dream. Enough is enough.
If there is one thing people like Gandhi and MLK Jr taught us, it is the path of non-violence can succed.
These people were very provocative...not passive.
The palestinians need to keep their cause constantly in the public view. What has just happened if anything only helps those on Israel's side that do not want peace.
These people were very provocative...not passive.
The palestinians need to keep their cause constantly in the public view. What has just happened if anything only helps those on Israel's side that do not want peace.
It only worked because the british knew there would be a massive armed struggle if gandhi was killed by them. Plus hitlers antics did also help. Gandhi took inspiration from irish freedom fighter terence macswiney.
The tibetans have been peacefully protesting and even burning themselves in the process for 50 years now. No one seems to give a flying feck about them.
This happened yesterday http://www.thehindu.com/news/intern...elfimmolations-in-one-week/article4112300.ece
Bloodlust in Israel: 'Flatten Gaza, send it back to Middle Ages, they need to die!'
A new wave of hatred towards Palestine is sweeping through Israel from public figures to the man on the street. This hostility is in sharp contrast to efforts in Cairo, where Arab leaders and Western diplomats are trying to hammer out a peace plan.
While Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO) official Nabil Sheath expressed hope Sunday night that negotiations would continue, very different noises were coming out of Israel.
Interior Minister Eli Yishai said Operation Pillar of Defense would continue and likely be expanded, a reference to the possibility that a ground offensive has already been given the go-ahead.
The war in Gaza “must be so painful and difficult that the terror groups will not think twice but a hundred times before they fire missiles against Israel again,” it was reported in The Israel National News.
“Destroy and damage infrastructure, public buildings and government buildings. We must make sure that Hamas will be spending many years rebuilding Gaza, and not attacking Israel,” he continued.
A few days ago he said, “The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages, only then will Israel be calm for the next 40 years.”
His words were relatively mild compared to some of the comments that have been coming out of Israel in recent days.
Journalist, Gild Sharon, the son of former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, in an editorial in the Jerusalem Post on Sunday called for Gaza to be flattened like the US flattened the Japanese city of Hiroshima in 1945 with an atomic bomb.
“We need to flatten all of Gaza. The American’s didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough – so they hit Nagasaki too. There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire,” ranted Sharon.
As the former Prime Minister’s son publicly urged the military to wipe Gaza off the map, a member of the Knesset and the National Unity Party, Michael Ben-Ari, called for Israeli soldiers to kill Gazans without thought or mercy.
“There are no innocents in Gaza, don’t let any diplomats who want to look good in the world endanger your lives – mow them down!” it was reported on the Hakol HaYehudi website.
He also told soldiers to ignore Goldstone; in reference to the UN commissioned Goldstone report on Israel’s 2008-2009 invasion of Gaza, which found evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Israel Katz, the country’s transport minister, has called “for Gaza to be bombed so hard the population has to flee into Egypt.” While Avi Dichter, the minster of home front defense, has urged the IDF to “reformat” Gaza – to wipe it clean with bombs.
Even religious leaders joined the fray, with a prominent Israeli rabbi, Yaakov Yosef, the son of former chief rabbi, Ovadia Yosef, in a sermon at the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron blessed IDF soldiers while urging them “to learn from the Syrians how to slaughter the enemy.”
The Syrian army has come under widespread international criticism for indiscriminately shelling and bombing whole civilian areas.
Incitement to kill by Israeli rabbis is nothing new. In 2007 Eliyahu, chief rabbi of Safad, urged Israel to kill a million Palestinians to stop the rocket fire from Gaza.
Regular Israeli citizens have also taken to the streets to almost gleefully express their racist hatred of the inhabitants of Gaza and other Arab states.
A group of Israelis demonstrating in Tel Aviv on Thursday night shouted “They don’t deserve to live, they need to die”, “May your children die” and “Now we want to go back there [Gaza] and kick out all the Arabs”.
While anti-war voices exist, they are in a minority and much of the population is firmly behind it.
Journalist Patrick Cockburn observed during a visit to Israel during the 2008-2009 attack on Gaza the siege mentality of Israeli society.
“Israeli society reminds me of the Unionists in Northern Ireland in the late 1960’s or the Lebanese Christians of the 1970’s. Like Israel, both were communities with a highly developed siege mentality, which led them always to see themselves as victims even when they were killing other people.”
A spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry, Paul Hirschon, vigorously defended Israeli’s actions to RT. When asked about the Interior Minister’s comments that “Gaza should be bombed into the middle ages” and this could mean destroying infrastructure, water supplies and therefore targeting an entire population, which amounts to a war crime, he replied, “That is absolutely not the case as to what is happening and I think you will agree with me that in 1,400 military strikes in the last week, with a tragic incident of 47 deaths, I think you’ll agree with me that the Israeli army is taking every possible step to avoid civilian casualties.”
But Hamas is undaunted by the bombs. Osama Hamden, the director of Hamas’s international affairs, told the Al-Jadeed Satellite channel, “The Palestinians are not in a rush for a truce; we are accustomed to such attacks.”
Insults and threats between the two sides are traded as freely as the bombs and missiles. After the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) twitter warning that, “No Hamas operatives, whether low level or senior leaders, show their faces above ground in the days ahead.”
The Alqassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas, hit back with, "Our blessed hands will reach your leaders and soldiers whereever you are (you opened the gates of hell on yourselves)"
But there is a crucial difference between them. Hamas is a militant organization, which many in the world see as terrorist. Israel, however, is a civilized democracy and a rich developed nation and so the hyperbole and venom coming from the mouths of its leaders seems that much more shocking.
http://rt.com/news/israel-gaza-hamas-war-103/
A new wave of hatred towards Palestine is sweeping through Israel from public figures to the man on the street. This hostility is in sharp contrast to efforts in Cairo, where Arab leaders and Western diplomats are trying to hammer out a peace plan.
While Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO) official Nabil Sheath expressed hope Sunday night that negotiations would continue, very different noises were coming out of Israel.
Interior Minister Eli Yishai said Operation Pillar of Defense would continue and likely be expanded, a reference to the possibility that a ground offensive has already been given the go-ahead.
The war in Gaza “must be so painful and difficult that the terror groups will not think twice but a hundred times before they fire missiles against Israel again,” it was reported in The Israel National News.
“Destroy and damage infrastructure, public buildings and government buildings. We must make sure that Hamas will be spending many years rebuilding Gaza, and not attacking Israel,” he continued.
A few days ago he said, “The goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages, only then will Israel be calm for the next 40 years.”
His words were relatively mild compared to some of the comments that have been coming out of Israel in recent days.
Journalist, Gild Sharon, the son of former Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, in an editorial in the Jerusalem Post on Sunday called for Gaza to be flattened like the US flattened the Japanese city of Hiroshima in 1945 with an atomic bomb.
“We need to flatten all of Gaza. The American’s didn’t stop with Hiroshima – the Japanese weren’t surrendering fast enough – so they hit Nagasaki too. There should be no electricity in Gaza, no gasoline or moving vehicles, nothing. Then they’d really call for a ceasefire,” ranted Sharon.
As the former Prime Minister’s son publicly urged the military to wipe Gaza off the map, a member of the Knesset and the National Unity Party, Michael Ben-Ari, called for Israeli soldiers to kill Gazans without thought or mercy.
“There are no innocents in Gaza, don’t let any diplomats who want to look good in the world endanger your lives – mow them down!” it was reported on the Hakol HaYehudi website.
He also told soldiers to ignore Goldstone; in reference to the UN commissioned Goldstone report on Israel’s 2008-2009 invasion of Gaza, which found evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity.
Israel Katz, the country’s transport minister, has called “for Gaza to be bombed so hard the population has to flee into Egypt.” While Avi Dichter, the minster of home front defense, has urged the IDF to “reformat” Gaza – to wipe it clean with bombs.
Even religious leaders joined the fray, with a prominent Israeli rabbi, Yaakov Yosef, the son of former chief rabbi, Ovadia Yosef, in a sermon at the Cave of the Patriarchs in Hebron blessed IDF soldiers while urging them “to learn from the Syrians how to slaughter the enemy.”
The Syrian army has come under widespread international criticism for indiscriminately shelling and bombing whole civilian areas.
Incitement to kill by Israeli rabbis is nothing new. In 2007 Eliyahu, chief rabbi of Safad, urged Israel to kill a million Palestinians to stop the rocket fire from Gaza.
Regular Israeli citizens have also taken to the streets to almost gleefully express their racist hatred of the inhabitants of Gaza and other Arab states.
A group of Israelis demonstrating in Tel Aviv on Thursday night shouted “They don’t deserve to live, they need to die”, “May your children die” and “Now we want to go back there [Gaza] and kick out all the Arabs”.
While anti-war voices exist, they are in a minority and much of the population is firmly behind it.
Journalist Patrick Cockburn observed during a visit to Israel during the 2008-2009 attack on Gaza the siege mentality of Israeli society.
“Israeli society reminds me of the Unionists in Northern Ireland in the late 1960’s or the Lebanese Christians of the 1970’s. Like Israel, both were communities with a highly developed siege mentality, which led them always to see themselves as victims even when they were killing other people.”
A spokesman for the Israeli Foreign Ministry, Paul Hirschon, vigorously defended Israeli’s actions to RT. When asked about the Interior Minister’s comments that “Gaza should be bombed into the middle ages” and this could mean destroying infrastructure, water supplies and therefore targeting an entire population, which amounts to a war crime, he replied, “That is absolutely not the case as to what is happening and I think you will agree with me that in 1,400 military strikes in the last week, with a tragic incident of 47 deaths, I think you’ll agree with me that the Israeli army is taking every possible step to avoid civilian casualties.”
But Hamas is undaunted by the bombs. Osama Hamden, the director of Hamas’s international affairs, told the Al-Jadeed Satellite channel, “The Palestinians are not in a rush for a truce; we are accustomed to such attacks.”
Insults and threats between the two sides are traded as freely as the bombs and missiles. After the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) twitter warning that, “No Hamas operatives, whether low level or senior leaders, show their faces above ground in the days ahead.”
The Alqassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas, hit back with, "Our blessed hands will reach your leaders and soldiers whereever you are (you opened the gates of hell on yourselves)"
But there is a crucial difference between them. Hamas is a militant organization, which many in the world see as terrorist. Israel, however, is a civilized democracy and a rich developed nation and so the hyperbole and venom coming from the mouths of its leaders seems that much more shocking.
http://rt.com/news/israel-gaza-hamas-war-103/
From a long term purely israeli point of view, a one state solution with the palestinians dumped into jordan, the sinai, into the sea or into the ground would be their best solution.
Most in the world find israel distasteful already, and to be honest the US would send some strong words but long term the US won't distance itself from israel if israel waged sherman-esque total warfare in gaza or worse.
And regardless, general worldwide/western opnions would blow over in 50 years...see relations with germany, who commited systematic genocide only 70 years ago.
Taking emotion and 'what is right' out of it for a second, the only thing that is stopping israel from taking over all of the westbank and gaza and either killing or pushing all palestinians out is self-restraint.
Nothing new really in those comments. It is clear that Israel doesn't give a shit about crimes it does in Gaza.
I really think that US and many EU countries would applause for Israel.
I really think that US and many EU countries would applause for Israel.
Nope. Israel tactics are working - lets be honest why do they need a two state solution?
You will never get everyone to agree.
The Palestinians want to start discussions beginning with the borders in 1967 - not going to happen. The right of return of the palestinian refugees is not going to happen.
The Palestinians will never accept the state of Israel.
You think after all this struggle Israel will just trade land for supposed peace? The current slow enroachment and control of the West Bank will continue and the West bank will fall further into Israel control - its a tactic thats working.
Perhaps Plech might be right in the long term ultimately success in the territorial struggle will be a pyhrric victory.
But what about externalities - costs passed onto others who cannot reclaim the cost / debt from you who caused it?
I don't see the big deal. Should everyone drop everything to report on Gaza?
You can see her point though. "Go into Gaza? feck that! Our rockets are actually killing people. I'll stay here, thanks!"
Yes they should because it matters to more than a few armchair leftists the world over. Heard much out of Syria lately ?
Not enough. It's been over four months since JakeC posted in the Syria thread. I don't want to jump to conclusions but that says a lot about his character.
http://www.crethiplethi.com/the-irish-palestinian-connection/israel/2010/
Palestinians have always had a lot of support among the Irish.
Palestinians have always had a lot of support among the Irish.
Not necessarily
The solution to Gaza…return to Syria!
Unfortunately, wars in our region have become like a race, so each war is to cover another one. In other words, these wars are nothing more than a move to escape forward. Therefore what is happening in Gaza is escaping forward, particularly in the hope of saving al-Assad or at least ensuring that the cost of toppling him will be greater for everybody. The greatest architect of such wars is Iran, from the unmanned Ayoub drone, not to mention all the attempts in the Sinai Peninsula. When the Golan front did not move quickly enough for al-Assad and Iran, they resorted to the Gaza front, because this can be inflamed far quicker, whilst it is also easier for Israel in this regard.
The infamous red-green alliance, Irish version.
The Irish left here supports regimes that execute homosexuals, exhibit next to zero women rights, zero religious tolerance and fire rockets on civilian targets for good measure.
Heartbroken that Stalin is no longer, aren't you?
Why'd you post that picture?No wonder, MidEast violence beats Gaelic football.
Northern Ireland always goes full retard.
No need for name calling, but drafting this lot for intenet debating is no different to this:
We're a cosy little community here. We all know by now that what you (and the gentlemen you mention) talk about a nation's right for self-determination in its homeland and not the action of its government.
I already thanks the US Congress for their support in the Iron Dome project. If we resorted to firing 1500 rockets into Gaza in return to Palestinian fire the death toll there would have been much higher than it is right now.
The lad shot in Hebron threw a molotov cocktail at the soldiers. Always a risky thing to do.
Oh, and Israeli Airstrike on building where local, foreign news organizations have offices leaves at least one senior Islamic commander dead, others injured
Is it a war crime?
Iron Dome has intercepted and stopped over 200 rockets fired towards populated areas. The fact Israel has worked and invested towards defending the public is the reason the number of deaths and injuries has not been high. Hamas uses everything it has towards improving its attacks of Israel. So forgive me for not being shocked by death tolls. You reap what you sow.