Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

[Kaos]

Hey Raoul, should I watch American Sniper to get a better understanding and a more positive picture of your government's contribution toward spreading democracy in Iraq?

 

[Mihajlovic]

I purposely used the word communities when describing the Palestinians and government when describing the Israelis. I was challenging the stereotype of Palestinians as all bloodthirsty arabs vs the portrayal of Israel as zionist genocide causers. There are moderates to be found on both sides and naturally more of them in the larger, economically,socially,politically,intellectually advanced country.

I honestly struggle to identify the moderates within the Palestinian communities. And if they exist in any significant numbers, why can't we see them? In what ways do the actually shape Palestinian politics? Funnily enough, there are so many so called 'self-hating Jews' who are enormously active in pointing out the injustices of their own government- are there any 'self-hating Palestinians', in that sense, to provide a balance?

 

[Desert Eagle]

I honestly struggle to identify the moderates within the Palestinian communities. And if they exist in any significant numbers, why can't we see them? In what ways do the actually shape Palestinian politics? Funnily enough, there are so many so called 'self-hating Jews' who are enormously active in pointing out the injustices of their own government- are there any 'self-hating Palestinians', in that sense, to provide a balance?

Something about those with power in the Palestinian communities makes me think they're not the type to be open to moderate views. But you raise an interesting moral debate in what is the right thing to do if one side will never accept peace.

 

[Mihajlovic]

Something about those with power in the Palestinian communities makes me think they're not the type to be open to moderate views. But you raise an interesting moral debate in what is the right thing to do if one side will never accept peace.

I think that's a debate that Israel is having internally ever since the creation of the state. Not sure if they've come any closer to any answers. The history of modern Israel is still relatively young and there literally wasn't a decade since 1948 that would allow for the implementation of any sort of long-term peace agreement. Israel seemed to have only managed to react to the ever growing challenges- external attacks, domestic terrorism, etc. without ever reaching a solution, and I believe the only reason for this is because there have been no valid 'partners for peace' on the other side.

 

[Dante]

Palestinians have been on a war footing since 1947, effectively. That's always going to foster a conservative, militant political class. They need a bit of breathing space if you want moderation to take hold. Paramilitaries are currently the only people able to police, build, smuggle essential supplies, etc.

 

[holyland red]

Palestinians have been on a war footing since 1947, effectively. That's always going to foster a conservative, militant political class. They need a bit of breathing space if you want moderation to take hold. Paramilitaries are currently the only people able to police, build, smuggle essential supplies, etc.

Israel did not take control of the WB and the GS until 1967. Enough time for developing medration, only that the PLO was founded in 1964 or "liberating" the area from Israel (Yes, 1964. That's 3 years before the Six Days war).

I'm not sure what essential goods need to be smuggled other than weapons too. What paramilitaries need to smuggle what goods to the WB?

 

[Dante]

Israel did not take control of the WB and the GS until 1967. Enough time for developing medration, only that the PLO was founded in 1964 or "liberating" the area from Israel (Yes, 1964. That's 3 years before the Six Days war).

I'm not sure what essential goods need to be smuggled other than weapons too. What paramilitaries need to smuggle what goods to the WB?

20 years after being ethnically cleansed from their land!?! I think you're asking for a bit too much! Israel is hardly a nation that forgets its history when attempting to justify its future! It's not like Palestinian political parties would have been made up of teenagers.

Medicine, building materials, food, fuel...

 

[holyland red]

20 years after being ethnically cleansed from their land!?! I think you're asking for a bit too much! Israel is hardly a nation that forgets its history when attempting to justify its future! It's not like Palestinian political parties would have been made up of teenagers.

Medicine, building materials, food, fuel...

Many more Jews were ethnically cleansed from their land by Arabs than the other way round. Many more Arabs stayed in their homes under Israeli/Jews and prospered than the other way round. Both sides are allowed to remember recent history, and at the same time work for a viable solution that will not preserve the annimosity.

Building materials need to be smuggled to Gaza because the Palestinians use those materials for building bunkers for missiles and tunnels from Gaza to Israel. Fuel, food and medicine can be transfered through the border crossings with Israel. The thing is that going that way Hamas will not be able to collect the taxes which are transferred to the PI. This is moot point anyway, as nothing have to be smuggled to the WB (weapons aside) and there is no sign of moderation there either.

 

[Dante]

Many more Jews were ethnically cleansed from their land by Arabs than the other way round. Many more Arabs stayed in their homes under Israeli/Jews and prospered than the other way round. Both sides are allowed to remember recent history, and at the same time work for a viable solution that will not preserve the annimosity.

Building materials need to be smuggled to Gaza because the Palestinians use those materials for building bunkers for missiles and tunnels from Gaza to Israel. Fuel, food and medicine can be transfered through the border crossings with Israel. The thing is that going that way Hamas will not be able to collect the taxes which are transferred to the PI. This is moot point anyway, as nothing have to be smuggled to the WB (weapons aside) and there is no sign of moderation there either.

That's got nothing to do with the point I was making. Stop with the petty point scoring, I couldn't give a shit and I'm really not interested in who's 'winning'.

Saying that Palestinians need some breathing room in order to develop a moderate opposition is hardly a controversial opinion. The fact that you feel the need to argue against everything that paints Israel as anything other than saints does you no favours. It just makes you look uncompromising and nationalistic.

 

[Dante]

as nothing have to be smuggled to the WB

That's such an inhuman way to look at them as a people. You can't expect anyone to be happy with the bare essentials... and that's assuming that the bare essentials are even getting through to everybody. The economy is being suffocated and unemployment is through the roof.

 

[2cents]

That's such an inhuman way to look at them as a people. You can't expect anyone to be happy with the bare essentials... and that's assuming that the bare essentials are even getting through to everybody. The economy is being suffocated and unemployment is through the roof.

Yeah but you have to separate the WB from Gaza. There are nightclubs in Ramallah, which itself is a massive construction site in recent years - luxury apartments, cars, etc. The WB is actually flooded with goods and NGOs, if you have the money there's nothing you can't buy legally. The problem is, of course, the wealth being generated there is not distributed evenly, but this is a problem for all countries in the region. Much of the WB is visibly more prosperous than most parts of Jordan and Syria. Gaza obviously is a different matter entirely.

 

[holyland red]

That's got nothing to do with the point I was making. Stop with the petty point scoring, I couldn't give a shit and I'm really not interested in who's 'winning'.

Saying that Palestinians need some breathing room in order to develop a moderate opposition is hardly a controversial opinion. The fact that you feel the need to argue against everything that paints Israel as anything other than saints does you no favours. It just makes you look uncompromising and nationalistic.

My post has nothing to do with sainthood. Israel hardly good breathing room from its neighbours. At the same time the WB and GS Arabs were not under occupation pre-1967 (were they?) and there was no sign of moderation there. Neighbouring state have not lacked "breathing space" at all, and still you'd struggle to find relevant moderation in any.

I am uncompromising when it comes to my nation's right for self-determination in a nation state in the ME. I guess this makes me nationalistic. How would you call Arabs who reject that right? Are they the moderates we are looking for?

 

[holyland red]

That's such an inhuman way to look at them as a people. You can't expect anyone to be happy with the bare essentials... and that's assuming that the bare essentials are even getting through to everybody. The economy is being suffocated and unemployment is through the roof.

Bare essentials? I thought you were more familiar with the region tbh.

 

[Dante]

My post has nothing to do with sainthood. Israel hardly good breathing room from its neighbours. At the same time the WB and GS Arabs were not under occupation pre-1967 (were they?) and there was no sign of moderation there. Neighbouring state have not lacked "breathing space" at all, and still you'd struggle to find relevant moderation in any.

I am uncompromising when it comes to my nation's right for self-determination in a nation state in the ME. I guess this makes me nationalistic. How would you call Arabs who reject that right? Are they the moderates we are looking for?

Neighbouring states are monarchies. There's a huge groundswell of support for moderate governments even if the Arab Spring struggled to establish one. The reasons for that are complicated, though.

Stop changing the subject to so that you can engage in petty mud slinging. You're talking to the wrong guy. I'm not pro-Palestinian, I just don't like the way the Israeli government is working. It's not about being bi-partisan.

"In the labor force, one out of six Palestinians in the West Bank and nearly every second person in Gaza were unemployed even before the recent conflict, this is an unsustainable situation,” said Steen Lau Jorgensen, World Bank Country Director for West Bank and Gaza. “Without immediate action by the Palestinian Authority, donors and the Government of Israel to re-vitalize the economy and improve the business climate, a return to violence as we have seen in recent years will remain a clear and present danger.”

The fact that the West Bank is in a better state than the Gaza is irrelevant. The situation is shit in both places. Moreover, Palestinians in the West Bank are not blind to what's going on to their countrymen a few miles away. You can't expect moderation to develop in those circumstances.

You keep wanting to ring fence certain places and peoples. That's not how human beings work.

http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/pr...ne-and-unemployment-rising-to-alarming-levels

I am uncompromising when it comes to my nation's right for self-determination in a nation state in the ME. I guess this makes me nationalistic. How would you call Arabs who reject that right? Are they the moderates we are looking for?

That's not what I said, but well done for changing the subject.

 

[holyland red]

Neighbouring states are monarchies. There's a huge groundswell of support for moderate governments even if the Arab Spring struggled to establish one. The reasons for that are complicated, though.

Stop changing the subject to so that you can engage in petty mud slinging. You're talking to the wrong guy. I'm not pro-Palestinian, I just don't like the way the Israeli government is working. It's not about being bi-partisan.



The fact that the West Bank is in a better state than the Gaza is irrelevant. The situation is shit in both places. Moreover, Palestinians in the West Bank are not blind to what's going on to their countrymen a few miles away. You can't expect moderation to develop in those circumstances.

You keep wanting to ring fence certain places and peoples. That's not how human beings work.

http://www.worldbank.org/en/news/pr...ne-and-unemployment-rising-to-alarming-levels


That's not what I said, but well done for changing the subject.

I have not changed the subject even in the slightest. There is no Arab moderation which Israeli moderates could meet for a chance for a viable peaceful solution. Whether you are pro-Palestinian or not is irrelevant too. What is relevant here is that you do your best to find justification for Arab radicalism. It's the monarchies, 1947, unemployment, countrymen in Gaza...I'm not going to argue with those attempt to justify violence. Instead I'll highlight again the subject of our discussion. There is no moderate Palestinian politician in sight.

 

[Dante]

I have not changed the subject even in the slightest. There is no Arab moderation which Israeli moderates could meet for a chance for a viable peaceful solution. Whether you are pro-Palestinian or not is irrelevant too. What is relevant here is that you do your best to find justification for Arab radicalism. It's the monarchies, 1947, unemployment, countrymen in Gaza...I'm not going to argue with those attempt to justify violence. Instead I'll highlight again the subject of our discussion. There is no moderate Palestinian politician in sight.

What!?! I've not justified violence at all. I've only given the reason as to why there is a paucity of moderate politicians.

You really are something else, HR. Crikey!

By the way, you've justified a hell of a lot of Israeli violence over the years. Just saying...

 

[holyland red]

What!?! I've not justified violence at all. I've only given the reason as to why there is a paucity of moderate politicians.

You really are something else, HR. Crikey!

By the way, you've justified a hell of a lot of Israeli violence over the years. Just saying...

You are aware that the lack of pragmatism leads to an impasse in any attempt to reach a peaceful conclusion to the conflict here. It's not like we are in a position to sit peacefully together until the Arabs forget 1947 and become moderate. Excusing the Arabs for lack of moderation means one thing- escalation to violence.

This has a lot to do with your concluding comment. As long as Israel is attacked, a result of lack of moderation that we've discussed, it has no alternative but to retaliate. Seeing that it is its civilian populations that attacked it has no alternative but retaliate heavily.

 

[LeChuck]

To paint Israel as vying for alliance or reaching compromise is complete tripe, from Ben Gurion to Netanyuhu. I'm not going to rehash my views of the legitimacy of 'the State of Israel', but to suggest a gov't that butchered children playing football on a beach, or blowing up hospitals as anything other than abhorrent is ridiculous.

Edit: and don't suggest that those kids were 'Hamas agents' or anything unsubstantiated or ridiculous as you usually do.

 

[Mihajlovic]

I agree with HR here, and I made the same point earlier, there are no moderate, progressive voices to be heard from the Palestinian side.

To paint Israel as vying for alliance or reaching compromise is complete tripe, from Ben Gurion to Netanyuhu. I'm not going to rehash my views of the legitimacy of 'the State of Israel', but to suggest a gov't that butchered children playing football on a beach, or blowing up hospitals as anything other than abhorrent is ridiculous.

Edit: and don't suggest that those kids were 'Hamas agents' or anything unsubstantiated or ridiculous as you usually do.

To reduce the actions of Israel's government to a beach attack and hospitals (which sustained damages during the bombing of Hamas targets who fire rockets from hospital grounds), that is ridiculous.

That's the same reason why it's near impossible to have an intelligent debate on the of the civil war in Yugoslavia, because there's always someone that screams 'Srebrenica' and thinks therefore there's nothing else to be discussed.

 

[barros]

Arabs never gave 2 shits about Palestine until Israel was re-founded .... why? Arabs don't give 2 shits about the Kurds...why? Europeans worry more about Palestine than the arabs ... why? Jews were prosecuted for over 2000 years in Europe but still that's not enough. Anyway can someone tell me why people see the Jews in such negative way even before Israel was re-founded?

 

[Kaos]

Arabs never gave 2 shits about Palestine until Israel was re-founded .... why? Arabs don't give 2 shits about the Kurds...why? Europeans worry more about Palestine than the arabs ... why? Jews were prosecuted for over 2000 years in Europe but still that's not enough. Anyway can someone tell me why people see the Jews in such negative way even before Israel was re-founded?

Mainly because they're entirely different you'd imagine?

Its true though that the Arab states don't care for Palestine. They're obviously using it as a red herring to deflect away from the their own internal injustices. Its very common of Arab states to be involved in covert diplomacy with Israel behind closed curtains, and then to bash them in public.

 

[holyland red]

Mainly because they're entirely different you'd imagine?

Its true though that the Arab states don't care for Palestine. They're obviously using it as a red herring to deflect away from the their own internal injustices. Its very common of Arab states to be involved in covert diplomacy with Israel behind closed curtains, and then to bash them in public.

This doesn't explain their disgraceful treatment of Palstinians living within their borders.

 

[Kaos]

This doesn't explain their disgraceful treatment of Palstinians living within their borders.

It does: they don't care.

When has an Arab state treated its own with dignity, never mind outsiders.

 

[LeChuck]

I agree with HR here, and I made the same point earlier, there are no moderate, progressive voices to be heard from the Palestinian side.


To reduce the actions of Israel's government to a beach attack and hospitals (which sustained damages during the bombing of Hamas targets who fire rockets from hospital grounds), that is ridiculous.

That's the same reason why it's near impossible to have an intelligent debate on the of the civil war in Yugoslavia, because there's always someone that screams 'Srebrenica' and thinks therefore there's nothing else to be discussed.

I can't discuss Israel because I've mentioned the deaths of civilian Palestinian children? Makes sense.

Israel are not moderate or trying to reach a middle ground or whatever you want to call it. If I massacre a couple of thousand of people, am I trying to reach a middle ground or am I trying to exterminate? If I keep a significant number of people under occupation, and regulate what comes in and what goes out, am I trying to reach a middle ground?

And people have every right to mention the Srebrenica genocide when talking about Bosnia/Serbia. It's a/the defining moment of that conflict. Another genocide that could have and should have been avoided.

 

[LeChuck]

https://arielgoldblog.wordpress.com...sh-children-in-the-age-of-the-zionist-empire/

"AND YOU SHALL TEACH THIS TO YOUR CHILDREN"
A Jewish family's journey through Palestine

Why I took my Children to Palestine: Raising Ethical Jewish Children in the Age of the Zionist Empire

Many Jewish families take their children to Israel to strengthen their children’s Jewish identities. I, as a Jewish mother, instead took my children to Palestine. Rather than touring the modern Israeli city of Tel Aviv, we toured the heavily occupied West Bank city of Hebron. Rather than going to Israeli resorts to float in the dead sea, we took infrequent “Arabic showers” where water for bathing is heated on the stove because fuel is too expensive to have continuous running hot water. Instead of going to the Ayalon Institute, a Tel Aviv museum of munitions productions from 1945 to 1948, we picked up the tear gas canisters and rubber bullet casings that scatter the ground in West Bank villages.

Why, as a Jewish mother would I choose this option for my children? Isn’t this a terrible choice for a children’s vacation and shouldn’t adolescent American Jewish children be shielded from the ugly realities of war and oppression, allowed simply to enjoy themselves in Israel without the knowledge of what goes on the other side of the Separation Wall?

Zionist narratives permeate Hebrew schools and Jewish summer camps across America. They teach Jewish children to celebrate the founding of the modern nation state of Israel and that mandatory service in the Israeli Defense Forces is an honor and sacrifice that Israeli youth make for the sake of all Jews throughout the world. As participants in Hebrew school and Jewish summer camp, my children have already been heavily exposed to this Zionist propaganda. I wanted them to see with their own eyes the truth of the Israeli Palestinian conflict, and meet with their hearts and bodies the thoughtful and kind human beings, who are just like them, but suffer everyday from Israel’s military occupation.

The Sh’ma, one of the most important prayers of Judaism, begins with, “Hear, O Israel, the Eternal is our God, the Eternal is One”. It goes on to says, “And you shall love the Eternal, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be in your heart. And you shall teach them diligently to your children,…”

For me, diligently teaching this to my children means passing down to them the responsibility to work for justice. This is especially important when injustice is being perpetrated in their names as Jews. It was for this reason that instead of simply taking my children to see Israel and pray at the Wailing Wall, I instead took them to see Palestine and protest at the Apartheid Wall.

 

[2cents]

Woman who opposes her children being exposed to a one-sided narrative of the conflict travels with them to Palestine and ensures they are only exposed to a one-sided narrative of the conflict.

Standard 'asajew' piece.

 

[LeChuck]

Woman who opposes her children being exposed to a one-sided narrative of the conflict travels with them to Palestine and ensures they are only exposed to a one-sided narrative of the conflict.

Standard 'asajew' piece.

** For clarification, our visit to Palestine/Israel included going to places of historic Jewish religious significance, such as the Wailing Wall, and incredibly joyful and rich experiences of human connection, historical meaning, and family bonding.

I think she wanted her children to see what life is like under occupation.

If you see one side of a conflict...
...and you also see the other side of the conflict...

you have now seen

Spoiler: the big reveal

both sides of the conflict, thereby making an better informed opinion on the matter. I suggest you do the same.

 

[holyland red]

It does: they don't care.

When has an Arab state treated its own with dignity, never mind outsiders.

Are/were they outsiders though? How were 1948 Galilee refugees outsiders in Lebanon and Syria? Or Gazans in Egypt?

 

[2cents]

I think she wanted her children to see what life is like under occupation.

If you see one side of a conflict...
...and you also see the other side of the conflict...

you have now seen

Spoiler: the big reveal

both sides of the conflict, thereby making an better informed opinion on the matter. I suggest you do the same.

Visiting the Western Wall does not constitute seeing the other side of the conflict (by the way, referring to the Kotel as the 'wailing wall' is quite an unusual thing for a Jew to do). Visiting Sderot might.

 

[LeChuck]

Visiting the Western Wall does not constitute seeing the other side of the conflict (by the way, referring to the Kotel as the 'wailing wall' is quite an unusual thing for a Jew to do). Visiting Sderot might.

Zionist narratives permeate Hebrew schools and Jewish summer camps across America. They teach Jewish children to celebrate the founding of the modern nation state of Israel and that mandatory service in the Israeli Defense Forces is an honor and sacrifice that Israeli youth make for the sake of all Jews throughout the world. As participants in Hebrew school and Jewish summer camp, my children have already been heavily exposed to this Zionist propaganda.

Did you actually read the article?

 

[2cents]

Yes. She follows the bit you quoted by writing "I wanted them to see with their own eyes the truth of the Israeli Palestinian conflict". Clearly, she has her own ideas on what constitutes the 'truth' in this case, and no doubt her children have already been informed that whatever they learned previously ("Zionist propaganda") was lies. So no, her children have not 'seen' both sides of the conflict - they have been actively denied that opportunity.

 

[LeChuck]

I'm sorry, but your logic really is nonsensical. If she has brought her children up in a traditional Jewish household, going to Jewish camps and summer schools what not, one can assume they have been exposed to, and seen the Jewish side of the conflict (I actually don't like using that phrase, and would prefer to say it's the Zionist side of the conflict, but I said Jewish because it's a Jewish school in the article etc).

As I said, up to this point they've only been exposed to that side. It's not like she's sent her kids to a madrassa (Islamic school) or have they been exposed to anything that is the Palestinian side of the story.

Also, she hasn't once said or suggested that what they were taught at these schools etc were lies. She just wants them to see the other side of the coin. It seems to be you have the agenda here, and don't like a Jewish mother showing her kids a different narrative.

Anyway. this all suggests that the children will now have a more rounded view of the conflict because they have been and seen both sides of the argument. How you fail to see that is beyond me.

 

[Mihajlovic]

I can't discuss Israel because I've mentioned the deaths of civilian Palestinian children? Makes sense.

Israel are not moderate or trying to reach a middle ground or whatever you want to call it. If I massacre a couple of thousand of people, am I trying to reach a middle ground or am I trying to exterminate? If I keep a significant number of people under occupation, and regulate what comes in and what goes out, am I trying to reach a middle ground?

And people have every right to mention the Srebrenica genocide when talking about Bosnia/Serbia. It's a/the defining moment of that conflict. Another genocide that could have and should have been avoided.

Your statements are void of any context. As if like in some bizarre story Israel all of a sudden decided to start killing Palestinians, and that's it. The whole discussion was about the absence of any significant number of moderate voices within the Palestinian group.

(Btw, nothing you said about Srebrenica is factually true, but that's another discussion entirely)

 

[2cents]

Also, she hasn't once said or suggested that what they were taught at these schools etc were lies.

She calls it "Zionist propaganda", and then says she wants her children to see the "truth"! It doesn't get any more suggestive than that. Whatever the kids learned in school/camp, etc., they didn't see it "with their own eyes", and it's clear she sees the trip to Palestine as a corrective one, not a balancing one. I think it's pretty obvious the effect such a trip with such a parent would have.

It seems to be you have the agenda here, and don't like a Jewish mother showing her kids a different narrative.

I've no problem with her exposing her children to the Palestinian narrative - in fact I think it would be a commendable thing to do if done in a dispassionate spirit. And even if she can't do that, well, how she raises her children is her business.

I do have a problem, however, with writing a self-congratulatory blog post which not only draws on her Jewishness for credibility, but also implies that deliberately avoiding the full picture is something to be lauded for (asajew).

By the way, I would feel the exact same way with a blog post which read "As an Arab family, my kids have only been exposed to Pallywood propaganda, so I sent them on a birthright tour so they could discover the truth about Israel."

 

[LeChuck]

She calls it "Zionist propaganda", and then says she wants her children to see the "truth"! It doesn't get any more suggestive than that. Whatever the kids learned in school/camp, etc., they didn't see it "with their own eyes", and it's clear she sees the trip to Palestine as a corrective one, not a balancing one. I think it's pretty obvious the effect such a trip with such a parent would have.

I've no problem with her exposing her children to the Palestinian narrative - in fact I think it would be a commendable thing to do if done in a dispassionate spirit. And even if she can't do that, well, how she raises her children is her business.

I do have a problem, however, with writing a self-congratulatory blog post which not only draws on her Jewishness for credibility, but also implies that deliberately avoiding the full picture is something to be lauded for (asajew).

By the way, I would feel the exact same way with a blog post which read "As an Arab family, my kids have only been exposed to Pallywood propaganda, so I sent them on a birthright tour so they could discover the truth about Israel."

I still think you're being quite partisan in your viewing of this.

Firstly, the woman moves in Jewish spheres suggesting this way of thinking isn't the norm. Understandable, which is why she qualifies this line of thinking by stating 'as a Jew'.

And also, if she really felt that strongly about the Jewish schools etc why would she continuously send her kids to them? She's saying it's propaganda simply because it's a very one sided viewpoint. Showing them the other side is the best education they can receive on such a sensitive topic. She's done nothing wrong here and to suggest so is churlish.

Edit: and it is her blog so the self congratulatory bit can be excused for now.

 

[LeChuck]

Your statements are void of any context. As if like in some bizarre story Israel all of a sudden decided to start killing Palestinians, and that's it. The whole discussion was about the absence of any significant number of moderate voices within the Palestinian group.

(Btw, nothing you said about Srebrenica is factually true, but that's another discussion entirely)

The people living under occupation with the spectre of death looming large. What would a moderate voice sound like in such circumstances? 'Don't kill us?' 'Don't let us live under occupation?' 'Don't take our land' Is that moderate to you? I've heard these moderate voices loud and clear, but I seem to be the only one.

It's not like, I don't know, these people have the freedom to move within their own country unregulated. Or have access to basic needs such as water, food or energy.

The moderate view of many of them is to remove Israeli occupation and Israeli apartheid.

And are you denying the Srebrenica genocide?

 

[2cents]

I still think you're being quite partisan in your viewing of this.

And I think you're ignoring the entire tone and the nuances of the article. The "Age of the Zionist Empire" indeed!

Showing them the other side is the best education they can receive on such a sensitive topic.

No, showing them both sides would be the best way to go about it.

As in, by all means visit Hebron (btw I think the situation in the 'heavily-occupied' part of town there is deplorable), but make sure that your children's experience of the few hundred or so fanatical Jewish settlers who live there is offset by the experience of visiting Tel Aviv, a run-of-the-mill Mediterranean city where hundreds of thousands of Jews go about living their lives quite normally. (Also ensure they know something of the recent history of Hebron, i.e. not just the Goldstein massacre, but also the 1929 massacre). This would not only have to effect of showing them that Israeli Jews mostly don't spend all their time harassing Arabs, but also that they are not the guardians of world Jewry she claims they are made out to be. In other words, it would serve to demystify Israeli Jews - a trip to Ramallah, or even just the part of Hebron not 'heavily-occupied' (i.e. the majority of it) would serve the same function for Palestinians, who she clearly romanticizes in the same way she claims Israeli Jews are romanticized at those Hebrew school/Jewish camps.

 

[Desert Eagle]

Arabs never gave 2 shits about Palestine until Israel was re-founded .... why? Arabs don't give 2 shits about the Kurds...why? Europeans worry more about Palestine than the arabs ... why? Jews were prosecuted for over 2000 years in Europe but still that's not enough. Anyway can someone tell me why people see the Jews in such negative way even before Israel was re-founded?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism#Ancient_world

 

[Mihajlovic]

The people living under occupation with the spectre of death looming large. What would a moderate voice sound like in such circumstances? 'Don't kill us?' 'Don't let us live under occupation?' 'Don't take our land' Is that moderate to you? I've heard these moderate voices loud and clear, but I seem to be the only one.

It's not like, I don't know, these people have the freedom to move within their own country unregulated. Or have access to basic needs such as water, food or energy.

The moderate view of many of them is to remove Israeli occupation and Israeli apartheid.

And are you denying the Srebrenica genocide?

The moderate view needs to develop within the religious circles. It should be preached from every mosque and be taught in every school that armed struggle is not the way forward but only dialogue is. There needs to be a shift in the mindset of all people, especially those in power, that will create a new culture, i.e a culture in which anyone can criticise the government without the fear of being chained to a motorcycle and dragged through the streets, or a culture that allows for the establishment of a variety of political parties without the fear of being thrown off roof tops. Those and other internal changes need to happen.

(Yes I think Srebrenica was a war crime but it definitely wasn't genocide)

 

[holyland red]

Going back on topic, starting here would help our discussion on where are Palestinian moderates, if they exist of course:

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=1019

As for kids and narratives, this is what guarantees that there won't be any moderates to talk peace with in the next generation too. It's not 1947, running water or any other basic needs:

http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=339

These are not personal blogs, but the official PA television. This is what Palestinian kids are being fed with with by their official media. That of the "moderates" funded by the West.