milemuncher777
formerly kid777
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2011
- Messages
- 5,156
Even I can post tens of videos and pictures like above about how Israeli childrens are brainwashed to hate Palestinians and especially Arabs in general.
Going back on topic, starting here would help our discussion on where are Palestinian moderates, if they exist of course:
http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=1019
As for kids and narratives, this is what guarantees that there won't be any moderates to talk peace with in the next generation too. It's not 1947, running water or any other basic needs:
http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=339
These are not personal blogs, but the official PA television. This is what Palestinian kids are being fed with with by their official media. That of the "moderates" funded by the West.
Even I can post tens of videos and pictures like above about how Israeli childrens are brainwashed to hate Palestinians and especially Arabs in general.
The moderate view needs to develop within the religious circles. It should be preached from every mosque and be taught in every school that armed struggle is not the way forward but only dialogue is. There needs to be a shift in the mindset of all people, especially those in power, that will create a new culture, i.e a culture in which anyone can criticise the government without the fear of being chained to a motorcycle and dragged through the streets, or a culture that allows for the establishment of a variety of political parties without the fear of being thrown off roof tops. Those and other internal changes need to happen.
(Yes I think Srebrenica was a war crime but it definitely wasn't genocide)
23 January 2015 – The United Nations Resident and Humanitarian Coordinator for the occupied Palestinian territory expressed concern today over the Israeli authorities’ recent spate of demolitions of Palestinian homes in the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
“In the past three days, 77 Palestinians, over half of them children, have been made homeless,” said James Rawley in a statement from Jerusalem.
“Some of the demolished structures were provided by the international community to support vulnerable families. Demolitions that result in forced evictions and displacement run counter to Israel’s obligations under international law and create unnecessary suffering and tension. They must stop immediately,” added Mr. Rawley, who is also UN Deputy Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process.
Demolitions that result in forced evictions and displacement run counter to Israel’s obligations under international law and create unnecessary suffering and tension
Since 20 January, the UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA) has recorded the Israeli authorities’ demolition of 42 Palestinian-owned structures in the Ramallah, Jerusalem, Jericho and Hebron governorates.
In addition to those displaced, 59 Palestinians were otherwise affected, mainly due to the demolition of structures essential for their livelihood, mostly animal shelters. At least eight of these structures were funded by international donors.
In the 1990s, several authorities, along with a considerable number of legal scholars, asserted that ethnic cleansing as carried out by elements of the Bosnian Serb army was genocide.[14] These included a resolution by the United Nations General Assembly and three convictions for genocide in German courts, (the convictions were based upon a wider interpretation of genocide than that used by international courts).[15] In 2005, the United States Congress passed a resolution declaring that "the Serbian policies of aggression and ethnic cleansing meet the terms defining genocide"
However, in line with a majority of legal scholars, the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia (ICTY) and theInternational Court of Justice (ICJ) have ruled that, in order for actions to be deemed genocide, there must be physical or biological destruction of a protected group and a specific intent to commit such destruction. To date, only the Srebrenica massacre has been found to be a genocide by the ICTY, a finding upheld by the ICJ.[17] Former Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadžić is currently on reinstated charges for genocide in several Bosnian municipalities other than Srebrenica, a verdict is not expected before 2015
Has Palestine acknowledged Israel's right to exist?
How about one Palestinian leader?
A few days earlier, Abbas surprised Enrique Zimmerman, who interviewed the PA president for Channel 2, by confessing that the Arabs' refusal to accept the partition decision was a mistake that he is trying to rectify.
In this important interview, Abbas elaborated on the Arabs' 2000 peace initiative, which offers Israel normalization with all Arab states in exchange for a generous partition plan, one that nobody could have dreamed of 64 years ago: Instead of 55% of the territory of the land of Israel, it covers 78% of its area (the 1967 borders with land swaps ).
Prior to signing the accords, Arafat—as Chairman of the PLO and its official representative—signed two letters renouncing violence and officially recognizing Israel. In return, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, on behalf of Israel, officially recognized the PLO.[84]
Two in fact. And they are famous enough that you might have heard their names.
Mahmoud Abbas:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...-wave-of-palestinian-prisoners-freed-1.399760
Yasser Arafat:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat#Palestinian_Authority_and_peace_negotiations
I got those two from 2 google searches and 3 minutes of reading.
Firstly, you've just changed your point (probably because it was an unsubstantiated and a moronic original comment). But this one seems even more baseless. What is the moderate voice? Surely, a moderate voice would say something along the lines that I've already mentioned i.e. to not live under occupation. To not have your land encroached. To have equality in opportunities. To live unregulated. To not be killed. I could go on and on. I really don't understand what you expect people to say. What is a moderate view to you? To be happy living their lives under these conditions?
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=49885#.VMLuqfmsUZU
Here's something from today. Is Israel being moderate in their land encroachment? What is the moderate take on this? I'd love to know, honestly. I'd really like you to qualify your statement and explain how both sides can show moderation. Maybe the Palestinians can show moderation and not complain about losing their homes.
The sad reality is, they are living under occupation, under the whims of Netanyuhu and the IDF. There's a clear agenda to annex Palestinian land, further aggravating the situation. A moderate Palestinian view would surely be asking to end the occupation, and end the apartheid. Which is what they have been asking for, indefinitely.
And now onto Srebrenica-
But there's this little bit added on aswell.
(From Wiki)
Once again, claiming that it was a war crime and not a genocide is such an unfounded, moronic thing to say. Call a spade, a spade.
Two in fact. And they are famous enough that you might have heard their names.
Mahmoud Abbas:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...-wave-of-palestinian-prisoners-freed-1.399760
Yasser Arafat:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat#Palestinian_Authority_and_peace_negotiations
I got those two from 2 google searches and 3 minutes of reading.
I only just saw this. I couldn't care less what decisions the ICTY is making. Naser Orić, Hashim Taci and Ante Gotovina are free men, that's all you need to know about how just and unbiased that kangaroo court is.
Srebrenica- the weirdest genocide ever where Serbian troops make every effort to escort women and children to safety and only execute men who were old enough to be soldiers. 3500 Serbian civilians were murdered in the Srebrenica area between 92-95, incl. women and children but that apparently wasn't genocide.
As for moderate voices within the Palestinian circles, Ive got nothing more to add to what I've already said. Lets wait until the next Hamas adventure and listen out to those voices who will call them to stop provoking the IDF pointlessly.
I got these in one:
Abbas:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-palestinians-will-never-recognize-israel-as-jewish-state/
Yasser Arafat:
http://answering-islam.org/Index/A/arafat_yasser.html
edit: bumped into this recent gem a bit later:
We Will Not Recognize A Jewish State So As Not To Damage The Right Of Return Or Harm Israeli Arabs
"We cannot recognize a Jewish state. We will stand against this enterprise, not out of obstinacy, but because it contradicts our interests. The first to suffer from this law would be the 1.5 million Arabs who would be no longer belong to Israel, due to their religion. The first to protest this law were the Druze...
"There is another reason. [Israel] will not allow the return of refugees. There are six million refugees who wish to return, and by the way, I am one of them. We need to find creative solutions because we cannot close the door to those who wish to return. Israel aspires to a Jewish state, and ISIS aspires to an Islamic state, and here we are, suspended between Jewish extremism and Islamic extremism. [ISIS leader]Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi will have an excuse to establish an Islamic state after the Jewish state law is approved. This is another matter from which we and everyone else suffer..."
Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin in addressing the Knesset in June 1982 ranted that the Palestinian “are beasts walking on two legs.” Another prime minister, Yitzhak Shamir, was no more charming when he stated in a 1981 speech to Israeli settlers that, "[The Palestinians] would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls."
And Netanyahu himself is no angel. As Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, he told students at Bar Ilan University in 1989: "Israel should have exploited the repression of the demonstrations in China, when world attention focused on that country, to carry out mass expulsions among the Arabs of the territories."
Palestinians have been compared to many varieties of animals. Ehud Barak compared them to crocodiles, Raphael Eitan, former chief of staff, the late Rabbi Ovadia Yusef called them “snakes” and Netanyahu “wild beasts.”
Ohhhhh so we're finding contradictory statements by leaders?
There was a specific question on the thread, which I answered. The question whether any Palestinian leader has ever acknowledged/conceded Israel's right to exist. Two of them clearly have.
Two in fact. And they are famous enough that you might have heard their names.
Mahmoud Abbas:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...-wave-of-palestinian-prisoners-freed-1.399760
Yasser Arafat:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasser_Arafat#Palestinian_Authority_and_peace_negotiations
I got those two from 2 google searches and 3 minutes of reading.
Abbas at least acknowledges that the Holocause is a historical fact, that it not some trumped up myth created by evil Zionists.
I should have clarified one "current" Palestinian leader. Arafat did famously come to the table, but he couldn't close to deal. In any event, Arafat is dead.
Mahmoud Abbas:
http://www.nydailynews.com/opinion/...defends-capture-gilad-shalit-article-1.970866
Abbas at least acknowledges that the Holocause is a historical fact, that it not some trumped up myth created by evil Zionists. But acknowledging Israel's existence and Israel's right to exist are two very different things. We all understand the political constraints Abbas has to deal with and I have no doubt that Abbas personally believes that any lasting solution has to include the Palestinian state formally recognizing Israel's right to exist. But we're not there yet.
Arafat did offer to revise the Palestinian Charter, the relevant point here of which denies Israel's right to exist, but of course the Palestinian Charter was not amended and still, to this day, denies the right of Israel to exist.
A predicament!
##
All of us understand that Palestinians have deeply held beliefs about whose land "Palestine" legally/morally belongs to. And each of us understands that Israel has committed atrocities as well as lesser crimes in the name of its security interests (I'm pro-Israel, so that I'm not misunderstood. But I'm also for a two-state solution, as what we've witnessed over the last 60 or so years is madness.).
But IF the subject at hand is how a lasting peace between these two peoples may be realized, we at least have to recognize that the entire political leadership of the Palestinian people fundamentally denies the right of Israel to exist. Israel has blood on its hands, but we're going nowhere fast with the current political leadership of the Palestinian people.
That's a fairly recent revelation on his part - his PHD dissertation argued that the extent of the Holocaust had been widely exaggerated, and that in any case, it transpired as a result of a joint Nazi-Zionist conspiracy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Other_Side:_The_Secret_Relationship_Between_Nazism_and_Zionism
The Saudis come to my mindMainly because they're entirely different you'd imagine?
Its true though that the Arab states don't care for Palestine. They're obviously using it as a red herring to deflect away from the their own internal injustices. Its very common of Arab states to be involved in covert diplomacy with Israel behind closed curtains, and then to bash them in public.
The Palestinians will recognise Israel's right to exist when there is a peace deal to be signed. Israel has made this issue its current condition that must be met before negotiations can start. If the Palestinians sign this away something else will become the next condition that must be met before negotiations can start.
But how do you sit down with someone who even denies your right to sit down?
Truth is, the current Palestinian leadership has no vested interest in peace, but only in maintaining a de facto state of war with a political entity that it denies has a right to exist. Much of their funding comes from Iran, whose intentions in the Middle East do not include peace and democracy.
Think of it this way. The Palestinians are simply not held hostage currently by the Palestinian equivalent of the American tea party; this denial of Israel's right to exist exists in the Palestinian Charter, which is the functional equivalent of the American Declaration and Constitution. This belief, that Israel has no right to exist, is the very cornerstone of the Palestinian people's political and cultural foundation.
For there to be ever a table to sit at and work through the issues, the Palestinian leadership has to recognize Israel's right to exist. So long as they refuse to do that, there isn't going to be that table. And the only people who will continue to suffer are the Palestinians.
Without getting into the rest of your post:
What do you think is the vested interest of Netanyahu (and every other right/centre-right politician in Israel right now)?
Gazan rockets do single-digit casulaties every year, make peace seem impossible, and thus strengthen anti-peace (rightwing) Israeli politicians. Gazan rockets provide a great diplomatic shield so that condemning settlement-building becomes harder, and also split Gaza and the WB further. Win-win-win for Netanyahu.
But how do you sit down with someone who even denies your right to sit down?
Truth is, the current Palestinian leadership has no vested interest in peace, but only in maintaining a de facto state of war with a political entity that it denies has a right to exist. Much of their funding comes from Iran, whose intentions in the Middle East do not include peace and democracy.
Think of it this way. The Palestinians are simply not held hostage currently by the Palestinian equivalent of the American tea party; this denial of Israel's right to exist exists in the Palestinian Charter, which is the functional equivalent of the American Declaration and Constitution. This belief, that Israel has no right to exist, is the very cornerstone of the Palestinian people's political and cultural foundation.
For there to be ever a table to sit at and work through the issues, the Palestinian leadership has to recognize Israel's right to exist. So long as they refuse to do that, there isn't going to be that table. And the only people who will continue to suffer are the Palestinians.
I only just saw this. I couldn't care less what decisions the ICTY is making. Naser Orić, Hashim Taci and Ante Gotovina are free men, that's all you need to know about how just and unbiased that kangaroo court is.
Srebrenica- the weirdest genocide ever where Serbian troops make every effort to escort women and children to safety and only execute men who were old enough to be soldiers. 3500 Serbian civilians were murdered in the Srebrenica area between 92-95, incl. women and children but that apparently wasn't genocide.
I the same way Israel sat down and talked to Egypt, they recognised Israel as part of the peace deal. Not before. Israel talks to the PA right now, and even has closed door dealings with Hamas. This is just an artificial road block from Israel. They are not intrested in peace so they put up a barrier to negotiations
I the same way Israel sat down and talked to Egypt, they recognised Israel as part of the peace deal. Not before. Israel talks to the PA right now, and even has closed door dealings with Hamas. This is just an artificial road block from Israel. They are not intrested in peace so they put up a barrier to negotiations
Sadat traveled to Jerusalem and addressed the Knesset in 1977, the first Arab leader to do so, and well before the peace deal was finalised. No Palestinian leader has done anything comparable.
Surely you must acknowledge that Egypt never had any pretense of controlling Jerusalem or any of the rest of what we might call "Palestine".
It may also be worth noting that the Egyptian peacemaker, Anwar Sadat, was accused of apostasy and was assassinated at the direction of a Muslim Brotherhood for having made peace with Israel. A fatwa was issued ordering the assassination.
Let me repeat for emphasis: Sadat was assassinated because he made peace with Israel.
As for Hamas, it's hard to believe that you seriously believe it is interested in peace with Israel. One may have whatever honorable views about who should control Jerusalem and the rest of Palestine, but a peaceful, mutually prosperous coexistence between the Palestinians and Israelis is not, to put it mildly, particularly high on Hamas' agenda.
What's the latest -- as in yesterday -- threat from Hamas?
"Our message to the world, which is scared of terrorism and extremism, is that the delay in rebuilding Gaza and the continuing blockade against it will make it a ripe environment for the spread of extremism and terrorism," Khalil al-Haya told a Gaza City meeting of the movement's representatives in the Palestinian parliament.
http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Mi...e-repairs-saying-donors-failed-to-pay-up.ashx
A few points. Most of the cash Hamas is waiting for is pledged by Arab nations, but these pledged donors understand that Hamas will not use the cash to rebuild civic infrastructure, but to reopen the tunnels into Israel that the Israelis destroyed and to rearm itself. Second, when Israel left Gaza (I'm one of the very posters on redcafe who's actually been to Gaza), in 2005 the Palestinians had the opportunity to build a functioning state. But they, shall we say, passed up on that opportunity.
The problem, at root, is that Hamas demands revenge, not reconciliation with Israel.
But don't believe me (and the facts of history), believe Hamas itself:
Hamas' 1988 charter states that Hamas "strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine" (Article Six) and that "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (Article Six)
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp
It still wasnt a declaration that Israel had a right to exist.
Israel has in the past managed to negotiate with the Palestinians, whats changed that they suddenly can't?
Have a read of the speech he gave, it was a lot more than simple recognition.
As far as I'm aware they haven't ruled out negotiations. The question at hand is their demand for Palestinians to not just recognise the state of Israel, but to recognise it as a Jewish state, i.e. the nation-state of the Jewish people. This demand is aimed to counter the Palestinian demand for the right of return of the '48 refugees, it cuts to the heart of the conflict since, in a two-state solution, the right of return would turn Israel into a binational state with an Arab majority to go alongside a Palestinian Arab state in the West Bank and Gaza. If Palestinian leaders were to drop the demand for the right of return (they won't and they can't), then I think you'd see demands for recognition of the 'Jewish state' dropped pretty quickly, since there would be little utility in them.
The right of return is one of the Palestinians bargaining chips
Yitzhak Rabin
Egypt wanted to destroy Israel totaly, Israel still negotiated.
If you keep the Palestinians of Gaza in a prison they will react, rebuild or we will be back at war in a couple of years.
Hamas has negotiated truces and periods of calm with Israel in the past, they can negotiate a peace deal that is more permanent
We must not conveniently overlook the fact that the PLO strenuously objected to the Camp David accord. There is today no Palestinian Anwar Sadat, whose life was taken under order of a fatwa because he reached peace with Israel.
I agree that this madness must end. But it can't end until after Palestinian authorities recognize Israel's right to exist. Until they do, their people will continue to suffer.
But then again, the suffering of the Palestinian people has never been a concern of Palestinian authorities or their sponsors.
Israel is not going away unless it is destroyed, but it will not self-destruct.
We must not conveniently overlook the fact that the PLO strenuously objected to the Camp David accord. There is today no Palestinian Anwar Sadat, whose life was taken under order of a fatwa because he reached peace with Israel.
I agree that this madness must end. But it can't end until after Palestinian authorities recognize Israel's right to exist. Until they do, their people will continue to suffer.
But then again, the suffering of the Palestinian people has never been a concern of Palestinian authorities or their sponsors.
Israel is not going away unless it is destroyed, but it will not self-destruct.
Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
“No protected person [that is, a civilian] may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited. . . . Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.”
Is there a thread for the Israel-Hezbollah clashes or do we use this?
Israel will get recognition as part of a peace deal so its for then to sit down and negotiate, Israel wont because it does not want to free the Palestinian people
Is there a thread for the Israel-Hezbollah clashes or do we use this?
None of us can know the true intentions of either the Palestinian or Israeli people, but what we can see from our armchair position is that the political leadership of the Palestinian people have done absolutely nothing over the last 50 or so years to make possible the conditions for a lasting peace (with an emphasis on the word "lasting") with its Israeli neighbor.
Israel has, I believe the historical record clearly shows, reached lasting peace agreements with at least two of its neighbors, Egypt and Jordan.