Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Dante said:
Palestinians and Jews are, but not Arabs in general.

It's sad that Palestinians are the descendants of the ancient Hebrews who were persecuted by the Egyptians, the Romans and the Greeks. But because their ancestors decided to change religion, now modern day Jews are persecuting them as well :(. One day they'll get to the Promised Land.
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This forum is nuts.

You think today's Palestinian Arabs are descended from ancient Jews who were persecuted by ancient Egyptians.

Meanwhilst Mozza thinks todays Jews are descended from those very same ancient Egyptians who persecuted Hebrews.
 
Fearless said:
This forum is nuts.

You think today's Palestinian Arabs are descended from ancient Jews who were persecuted by ancient Egyptians.

Meanwhilst Mozza thinks todays Jews are descended from those very same ancient Egyptians who persecuted Hebrews.
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Two different opinions in a thread about Israel/Palestine. Whoda thunk it?
 
Actually, the truth is that there probably was no Exodus and the Hebrews were just a collection of disparate tribes who happened to be living in Palestine and decided to unite under a made up a new religion inspired by Babylonian scripture. The Palestinians still share the same ancestry as modern Jews, though.
 
Fearless said:
This forum is nuts.

You think today's Palestinian Arabs are descended from ancient Jews who were persecuted by ancient Egyptians.

Meanwhilst Mozza thinks todays Jews are descended from those very same ancient Egyptians who persecuted Hebrews.
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Holyland keeps banging on about homeland, just pointing out where hes really from
 
Sultan said:
I'm not sure why I wasted a few precious hours actually. I'm not sure there's an easy solution.
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The most intractable conflict not only in the history of man, but arguably older than man himself. Where faiths collude and collide, financed by oil and arms sales.

Whats not to like?
 
Raoul said:
How would you resolve the situation in a way that is acceptable to both sides ?
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Here's the latest 'initiative'* which seems to propose something between the two-state and one-state solutions (it basically seems to be the two-state solution without borders):



*Proposals like this are raised by well-meaning groups every so often, and mostly disappear without a trace.
 
2cents said:
Here's the latest 'initiative'* which seems to propose something between the two-state and one-state solutions (it basically seems to be the two-state solution without borders):



*Proposals like this are raised by well-meaning groups every so often, and mostly disappear without a trace.
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Sounds good, although it would need to be endorsed by the most extreme factions on each side in order to work, which of course will never happen.
 
It doesnt make sense to create a utopies like that; every child could do so. They just obfuscate reality and put you off the scent. Assuming, that both sides peacefully accept each other and cooperate, would mean that there wouldnt be any conflict. It is a nice presupposition, but doesnt match reality and there is not resonable way to reach such a state. At least non that I know. The question is how to come to a solution without peaceful acceptance in the first place.
The answer is a bit trickier but boils down to: There wont be a peaceful ending without foreing interference and there is only one country that could make the difference (without using unrealistic assumptions about behaviour and capabilities of other countries). It comes down to US foreign policy.
 
Here's an article on house demolitions: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articl...ks&utm_campaign=2014_EditorsPicks_12.1.14_SPE

"When you're dealing with people who have no qualms whatsoever about killing themselves in order to kill others, deterrence is a problem," Mark Regev, a spokesman for Netanyahu, told Foreign Policy on Nov. 24. "How do you deter someone who's willing to kill themselves in order to get others?"

It's a question the Israeli army established a commission to study over a decade ago, though, the group ultimately concluded that home demolitions were not the answer. The panel, headed by Gen. Udi Shani and convened as the Second Intifada died down in late 2004, was the first serious study on the subject, and its findings were stark: "There is no proof of the deterrent effect of house demolitions," it reported, after speaking with everyone from military officers to philosophers. As a result, the policy was largely suspended.

"If anything, the study found that the demolitions inflame the public and probably generate more attacks," said Jeff Halper, the founder of the International Committee Against Home Demolitions, a local activist group. "And there hasn't been another committee convened that said conditions have changed."

..................................

...Ironically, it was none other than current Defense Minister Moshe Ya'alon, who appointed the commission in 2004 during his stint as army chief, who, on a visit to the West Bank earlier this week, seemed to discard the study's findings, telling reporters the policy had proven itself "effective."

But Halper chalks Ya'alon's endorsement up to politics. "It's a political assertion," Halper said.

"If it doesn't deter, if in fact it is a provocation, then it all boils down to revenge, with no policy implications. It's just a penalty imposed on the entire community."

The Israeli government maintains that home demolitions are a particularly effective response to the seemingly uncoordinated attacks that have recently seized the country. A range of Palestinian factions, from Islamic Jihad to the secular Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, have praised the past month's attacks. But none have actually claimed responsibility; Israeli security officials believe the perpetrators acted independently.

"This is a deterrent, especially in the case of a so-called ‘lone wolf' terrorist," Regev said. "With an [organized] cell you can intercept intelligence. A lone wolf presents many challenges."

Interviews with the families, though, suggest otherwise. All of them insist that they had no prior knowledge of the attack, and the home demolitions only heightened their anger at what they view as a vindictive action by unaccountable Israeli authorities.
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Interestingly, the practice originated with the British:

The practice dates back to 1945, before the state of Israel was founded. The British Mandate passed an emergency resolution granting military commanders wide latitude to destroy any house from which they suspected a weapon was fired, or whose inhabitants attempted to violate military law.

When Israel occupied the West Bank in 1967, it applied a bewildering mix of Jordanian, Ottoman, British and Israeli law, including the 1945 regulation.
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Palestinian autopsy reveals minister died from heart attack

Palestinian-led autopsy of Ziad Abu Ein congruent with Israeli claims, says he died from stress-induced heart attack, but say attack, lack of medical care at fault; Israeli doctor: His heart was already functioning at less than 80%.

Israeli and Palestinian medical officials seemed to agree on the results of the autopsy of the Palestinian minister who died after being shoved and grabbed by the neck by an Israeli policeman at a West Bank protest, but issued conflicting interpretations Thursday.

Abu Ein, a Palestinian Authority cabinet minister, collapsed and died in the afternoon hours of Wednesday. Now a Palestinian-led autopsy claims his cause of death was a stress-induced heart attack.

The report, being led by Palestinian, Jordanian and Israeli pathologists, said the death was caused by blockage in the coronary artery, and said there were signs of light internal bleeding and localized pressure on the neck, at least according to the Israeli version of the report published by the Health Minixtry

The deceased suffered from heart disease, and there was evidence that plaque buildup were clogging more than 80% of his blood vessels, as well as signs that he had suffered heart attacks in the past.

The Palestinian government issued a statement after its meeting, blaming Israel for the "murder" of Abu Ein. "After publication of the results, we can say that Israel is responsible for the murder of Abu Ein," the government said.

Initially, Hussein al-Sheikh, a top Palestinian official, told Reuters that Jordanian and Palestinian doctors involved in the late night examination of the body said Ziad Abu Ein, 55, had died from being struck, inhaling tear gas and not receiving prompt medical attention.

However, Dr. Hen Kugel, the Israeli doctor who took part in the autopsy, told Ynet that the report was not final and that they were awaiting on the return of some tests, however "we know what happended there – he died from a heart attack. He had significant blockage of the arteries and his heart was in bad shape. When they grabbed his neck it caused massive stress which led to bleeding and then full blockage which is what killed him."

"There is no disagreement with the Palestinians about this, the only thing we still need to find out about is wounding to his front teeth, tongue and windpipe. These could be a result of resuscitation attempts or an attack as the Palestinians claim, but it doesn’t matter, he died because of his heart and stress," Dr. Kugel said.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4602214,00.html
 
The Israeli soldiers were clearly trying to give him CPR in those pictures, I don't know what the fuss is about.
 
Shamwow said:
The Israeli soldiers were clearly trying to give him CPR in those pictures, I don't know what the fuss is about.
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Israeli soldiers should have killed him 35 years ago, when he murdered two innocent Jewish boys in Tiberias. Unfortunately, he served only two years in prison before the first mass prisoner exchange with the Palestinians.

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Shame he went on to enjoy 35 years more than those two teenagres, and shame that he died from natural cause. Still, good riddance.
 
holyland red said:
Israeli soldiers should have killed him 35 years ago, when he murdered two innocent Jewish boys in Tiberias. Unfortunately, he served only two years in prison before the first mass prisoner exchange with the Palestinians.

5749675010015100490368no.jpg



Shame he went on to enjoy 35 years more than those two teenagres, and shame that he died from natural cause. Still, good riddance.
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I was wondering when you would bring this up. It makes the whole thing okay because if I've learned anything from the Israel-Palestine conflict, it's that two wrongs do make a right.
 
Shamwow said:
I was wondering when you would bring this up. It makes the whole thing okay because if I've learned anything from the Israel-Palestine conflict, it's that two wrongs do make a right.
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What I have learned from reading this thread is, both wrongs are always done by Israel, irrespective of context or evidence.
 
Shamwow said:
I was wondering when you would bring this up. It makes the whole thing okay because if I've learned anything from the Israel-Palestine conflict, it's that two wrongs do make a right.
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Why were you wondering instead of bringing it up yourself? I guess for the same reason The Guardian skipped that bit, saying he "spent time in jail before being released in a deal..."...the innocent Palestinians being locked up again.

According to the autopsy Israeli soldiers are not responsible for his death. I wish they were responsible for his death if that was 35 years ago. As on now, there was a confrontation between protesters and security forces. The man collapsed as evident from the video (edited by the Palestinians). Autopsy indicates a heart attack. Palestinians, with the help of the usual suspects, will not miss an opportunity to use another incident to incite furter violence.

#icantbreath
 
holyland red said:
Israeli soldiers should have killed him 35 years ago, when he murdered two innocent Jewish boys in Tiberias. Unfortunately, he served only two years in prison before the first mass prisoner exchange with the Palestinians.

5749675010015100490368no.jpg



Shame he went on to enjoy 35 years more than those two teenagres, and shame that he died from natural cause. Still, good riddance.
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As much as I agree that it's horrible that a murderer went free, I very much doubt you'd be saying the same thing if we were reversing the situations with it being an Israeli murderer who had been set free.
 
holyland red said:
Why were you wondering instead of bringing it up yourself? I guess for the same reason The Guardian skipped that bit, saying he "spent time in jail before being released in a deal..."...the innocent Palestinians being locked up again.

According to the autopsy Israeli soldiers are not responsible for his death. I wish they were responsible for his death if that was 35 years ago. As on now, there was a confrontation between protesters and security forces. The man collapsed as evident from the video (edited by the Palestinians). Autopsy indicates a heart attack. Palestinians, with the help of the usual suspects, will not miss an opportunity to use another incident to incite furter violence.

#icantbreath
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Why did I not bring it up? Because bringing up something that happened 35 years ago that has no bearing on the actual events that we are talking about would be stupid? Yeah probably that.
 
Cheesy said:
As much as I agree that it's horrible that a murderer went free, I very much doubt you'd be saying the same thing if we were reversing the situations with it being an Israeli murderer who had been set free.
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I believe that the brutal murder of the Jerusalem Arab boy has been discussed earlier in this thread. You can take the time and browse for youself to find my opinion of that incident, and what I think should be done with the suspects if convicted.
 
Shamwow said:
Why did I not bring it up? Because bringing up something that happened 35 years ago that has no bearing on the actual events that we are talking about would be stupid? Yeah probably that.
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I wonder whether having convicted murderers in the Palestinian cabinet has any bearing on the actual events, those that are first filtered by The Guardian et al before being served on sofas 1000's of kilometers away.
 
holyland red said:
I believe that the brutal murder of the Jerusalem Arab boy has been discussed earlier in this thread. You can take the time and browse for youself to find my opinion of that incident, and what I think should be done with the suspects if convicted.
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Convenient way to completely avoid my point.
 
holyland red said:
Israeli soldiers should have killed him 35 years ago, when he murdered two innocent Jewish boys in Tiberias. Unfortunately, he served only two years in prison before the first mass prisoner exchange with the Palestinians.

5749675010015100490368no.jpg



Shame he went on to enjoy 35 years more than those two teenagres, and shame that he died from natural cause. Still, good riddance.
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LOL.

Holyland red or how to sum up Talmudo-Zionism in one post.

Never forgive, never forget.

Just shows that peace is impossible with hateful Zionists like you.
 
2cents said:
Here's an article on house demolitions: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/12/01/demolition_derby_israel_lone_wolf_attacks_home_demolitions?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=*Editors Picks&utm_campaign=2014_EditorsPicks_12.1.14_SPE
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Contrary to the article posted above, the JPost reports on a new study which claims to show that house demolitions have been successful in deterring would-be suicide bombers: http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-C...eter-Palestinian-terrorism-study-finds-384205
 
So how did he die ? I saw he was pushed over but surely that didn't kill him. He must've had some sort of medical condition that was triggered when he fell over.
 
2cents said:
Contrary to the article posted above, the JPost reports on a new study which claims to show that house demolitions have been successful in deterring would-be suicide bombers: http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-C...eter-Palestinian-terrorism-study-finds-384205
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Thank you for sharing this.

I've had a read through it, aside from whether they have properly accounted for other factors - it seems that they have certainly made an effort to - my first thought is that it doesn't account for any long-term implications. It looks only at the immediate effects which to me is missing out a very large part of the picture. It is looking at the attacks originating from the areas in which the demolitions occur and not the overall picture. It also only considers suicide attacks, not terrorist attacks in general. That's not to say it's wrong - just things I question about the relevance of the study in relation to the overall issue.

As an aside, I was shocked when I read the study to find that Israel used to do what they called "precautionary demolitions" until 2005 - demolishing houses not because a terrorist lived there, or even anyone connected to a terrorist - but because they were in an area close to the Israeli border or near a settlement. According to the study these precautionary demolitions massively increase the chance of subsequent suicide attacks originating from the same district - I wonder if a study looking at other pre-emptive activities that Israel undertakes against the Palestinians would reveal similar results.

I'm also curious as to why this is being reported in the press as a new study when it seems to me that it was first issued in 2010. Am I missing something here?

If anyone else is interested: http://www.nber.org/papers/w16493.pdf
 
Worldwide attention has focused today on the death of Ziad Abu Ein, the Palestinian minister in charge of the Settlements and Annexation Wall portfolio, after he participated in a nonviolent demonstration north of Ramallah, in the West Bank. He had joined Palestinian farmers from the village of Turmusaya who were protesting today, Human Rights Day (10 December), to regain access to their land. While the circumstances of Abu Ein’s death are not yet clear, the reason for the demonstration and the way Israeli security forces handle Palestinian protests are all too familiar.

The demonstrators were holding saplings to plant on their plots of land, to which they have been barred access since the establishment of Israeli outpost Adei Ad east of their village. Such settlements, which are officially unauthorized by the state, are yet another means by which Israel has taken over land in the West Bank, excluding Palestinians from vast areas there. Although portrayed as the action of extremist settlers, the establishment of these outposts is in fact a state enterprise assisted by all government bodies, whether actively or by omission, a fact that has been well documented ( See “The Road to Dispossession” by human rights organization Yesh Din for a case study of Adei Ad, and “Access Denied” by B’Tselem for details of this policy implemented throughout the West Bank).

The protest today accompanied a High Court petition for the evacuation of the Adei Ad outpost, filed by the residents through Yesh Din. As in other cases in the West Bank, the decision to demonstrate to regain access to the land was made after all other avenues had been exhausted, including letters to authorities, legal action, involvement of international actors, media reports, and more. None of these efforts helped the landowners reclaim their property, nor did they improve the conditions of Palestinian communities harmed by the existence and expansion of the outpost.

Any form of Palestinian protest against the occupation, even when it is entirely nonviolent (as was apparently the case today) is unlawful under the Israeli martial law that applies to Palestinians in the West Bank. Israeli security forces are authorized to disperse any Palestinian demonstration, even when participants are nonviolent (see B’Tselem position paper on the right to demonstrate in the Occupied Territories), and often do so. To that end, they use crowd control weapons including stun grenades, tear gas grenades and “skunk” liquid (see B’Tselem report “Israel’s Use of Crowd Control Weapons in the West Bank”), as well as physical violence. Israeli security forces also arrest and prosecute demonstration organizers and participants, even when they are nonviolent. Needless to say, it is very rare for such measures to be taken against settlers protesting nonviolently. To the best of B’Tselem’s knowledge, and based on footage published by the media, the forces dispersed the protest today with tear gas grenades and stun grenades and also used physical violence to block the procession, in which Minister Abu Ein was participating.

The state sends settlers to forcefully take over Palestinian land in the West Bank and then sends the army to forcefully silence protest against the land grab – sometimes, at a lethal price. That is how Human Rights Day looks for people who live under occupation, where even demonstrating against dispossession is not allowed. That is what life, and sometimes death, under occupation looks like.
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Peaceful Protest is illegal. It would be funny if it wasn't such a tragic story.
 
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thegregster said:
Peaceful Protest is illegal. It would be funny if it wasn't such a tragic story.
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"As was apparently the case today"... Why bother looking at the (already edited) video... A murderer's ailing heart failed him after he seeked confrontation with security forces. Little wonder you need Yesh Din to translate the images for you.
 
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