Ive had a crazy week at work so haven't been able to sit down and reply to some of the silliness in this thread. But you've just said what I was going to say in a mini essay (amongst other things).
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
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Ive had a crazy week at work so haven't been able to sit down and reply to some of the silliness in this thread. But you've just said what I was going to say in a mini essay (amongst other things).
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...dren-shell-shocked-after-the-war-in-Gaza.html
Sayed Bakr lived through a deadly missile bombardment in the darkest days of the war in Gaza.
But posing underneath a portrait of his closest brother, Mohammed, who he lost in that attack, proved too much. After volunteering to stand with the picture, the 12-year-old broke down and called for his mother.
Sayed and his friends were the target of one of the most harrowing episodes of last summer’s war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. While playing football on the beach, they came under fire from an Israeli pilot who apparently mistook them for militants.
Four boys from the Bakr family died in the missile strike and four were injured. In the immediate aftermath, Sayed was left paralysed with terror, unable to speak, writhing hysterically against a wall.
Today, more than six months later, he is one of hundreds of thousands of children in Gaza who need treatment for shell-shock.
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After his crying fits, nightmares and frequent violent outbursts he was given a course of powerful anti-psychotic drugs for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). He no longer goes to school, and is frequently visited by visions of the blast.
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"I used to dream that I was dead," said Sayed, speaking hesitantly in the living room of his family's spartan home, a few hundred yards from where the strikes happened. "I always saw my brothers and cousins running after me in the dream. When the missiles struck and we were running away, I was certain we were all going to die. "Even today I am in continuous fear. Whenever I hear a loud noise or a bang, I feel terror."
This picture has emerged showing the four Palestinian boys running on the beach in Gaza moments before they were killed by an Israeli shell (mosaabelshamy)
He is not alone. There is no shortage in Gaza of stories of severely traumatised children still gripped by the after-effects of the war. The 50-day conflict left 539 Palestinian children deadand close to 3,000 injured, but according to United Nations, the mental scars have been just as devastating, if harder to quantify.
Children who saw their siblings or parents killed, often gruesomely, have been left stricken and around 35 per cent to 40 per cent of Gaza’s million children are suffering from shell-shock according to Hasan Zeyada, a psychologist with the Gaza Community Mental Health Programme.
On Wednesday, an Israeli human rights group said Israeli politicians and military leaders broke international law by persisting in bombing civilian homes, even after it became obvious that it would kill thousands of innocent people.
Sayed Bakr photographed at home (ROBERT TAIT)
Unicef admits it lacks the resources to cope. "We estimate that 373,000 children in Gaza needed psycho-social support after the war," said Pernille Ironside, head of the agency's Gaza field office. "We have been meeting on an on-going basis about one-third of those. The other two-thirds still require support - and they are not getting it."
Eyad Habib, 5, stands outside his family home on the way to school (ROBERT TAIT)
The outlook is grim even for those receiving help.
Muntaser Bakr, 11, Sayed's cousin, who suffered head, arm and back wounds in the beach attack, which killed his 10-year-old brother, Zakaria, has likewise been diagnosed with PTSD yet is arguably in an even worse plight.
Drugs costing £66 per prescription - a huge burden for his impoverished family are needed to control periodic fits and nervous convulsions.
Weeks after the incident, Muntaser tried to jump from a balcony in the first-floor family home in an apparent suicide attempt following a row with his father, Ahad, who caught him in the nick of time.
Muntaser Bakr, injured in the Gaza beach bombing, who is now on powerful drugs to control nervous convulsions (ROBERT TAIT)
He had to be withdrawn from school after he "almost killed a boy" in his class, according to Mr Bakr, 55, a fishermen, like most of the men in his family. The violent tendencies have continued at home, culminating in him trying to hang the four-year-old daughter of one of his older brothers.
"I die 100 times a day just seeing him like this," said Mr Bakr, as Muntaser fidgeted beside him with two teddy bears. "He is not the same child. He won't obey anything we say. If he wants something, he demands it no matter how it affects others. For a while, he used to say he wanted to become a fighter so he could avenge the deaths of his brother and his cousins. He has stopped saying it now and I don't want to remind him."
While many boys affected by last summer's carnage resort to violence, among girls the traumas often manifest themselves in withdrawn and depressed behaviour.
Ten-year-old Sara Kudaih is still haunted by the death of her younger brother, Anas, who died from blood loss after being wounded during shelling in the town of Khurza'a, near Gaza's border with Israel.
Sara Kudaih, posing beside a picture of her late brother, Anas, whose agonising death throes she witnessed. (ROBERT TAIT)
The family were forced to flee under a hail of missiles, leaving seven-year-old Anas on the ground with a horrific stomach wound, a ghoulish scene witnessed by Sara and filmed by a Red Crescent paramedic who arrived hours later to find the dying boy.
Today she is a frightened, introverted child who often refuses to eat or do homework, having previously been an excellent pupil, according to her parents.
Asked how she is feeling, she replies: "Sad. I lost my brother. He was killed."
Specialists have recommended 12 intensive therapy sessions to treat Sara's PTSD. Even then, she is only likely to reach 70 per cent recovery, according to Mahmoud Abdul Aziz Abu-Toaima, a psychologist with the Palestinian Centre for Democracy and Conflict Resolution.
She is one of the lucky ones. Diana and Mohammed Ayad, were orphaned after their widowed mother was killed during shelling of Gaza City's Shejaiya neighbourhood as the family tried to evacuate their home.
Neither child has received psychological testing or support, despite experiencing enduring mental health problems, according to relatives, in addition to physical injuries that left Diana, 15, needing extensive skin graft surgery, and Mohammed, 10, having a toe amputated.
Scenes from Shejaiya, one of the neighbourhoods of Gaza City most heavily bombarded during the war
Diana, who once wanted to be a doctor, no longer attends school and is confined to the family's shell-ravaged home by her injuries.
"I feel very bad psychologically because of the incident and suffer badly from my leg injuries," she said. "I'm not glad I survived. I wish I had died."
All this takes place against a backdrop of a dystopian landscape of ruined buildings and physical infrastructure - with the £3.3 billion reconstruction effort promised after the conflict having so far failed to get off the ground. Shejaiya, scene of some of the worst violence, looks little different from its shattered appearance last summer immediately after Israel's ground offensive.
It makes for a grim vista that has mental health professionals fearing a "lost generation" of Gazan children.
"The recent war surpassed the combined number of deaths and injuries from all the previous conflicts and the impact that is having on the children of Gaza and their future looks absolutely bleak," said Unicef's Ms Ironside."The adolescents here are at huge risk of losing hope and we face the danger of losing a whole generation of kids who decide they have nothing to lose and potentially get involved in militant activities."
Israel to build 430 new settler homes in West Bank
PLO says new plans amount to "war crime" after tenders issued to build new homes in Occupied Palestinian territory.
The Israeli government has published tenders to build 430 new settler homes in the occupied West Bank, according to an NGO that monitors settlement activity.
Terrestrial Jerusalem reported that the tenders were published on Friday for new homes in four existing settlements across the West Bank, including 112 in Adam, 156 in Elkana, 78 in Alfei Menashe and 84 in Kiryat Arba.
Building settlements in the West Bank is considered illegal under international law and opposed by the United States and international community as an obstacle to an eventual peace deal with the Palestinians.
Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) official Wassel Abu Yusef told the AFP news agency that "what the Israelis announced is part of a wider war... against the Palestinian people. This is a war crime which should push the settlements issue to the International Criminal Court".
Daniel Seidemann, head of Terrestrial Jerusalem, whose group particularly monitors settlement in Israeli-annexed East Jerusalem, told the AFP that he believed building plans were likely to be announced there soon.
"It's the opening of the settlement floodgates," he said. "I don't think it's over."
His group also linked the publication of tenders with Israel's March 17 election, where Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud Party will be competing with others for the settler vote.
"Today's W Bank tenders could not be published without Netanyahu's explicit knowledge and consent. Expect more and worse before elections," the group tweeted on Friday morning.
The Palestinians want both the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem, captured by Israel in the 1967 Middle East war, to be part of a future state.
PLO says new plans amount to "war crime" after tenders issued to build new homes in Occupied Palestinian territory.
The Israeli government has published tenders to build 430 new settler homes in the occupied West Bank, according to an NGO that monitors settlement activity.
Terrestrial Jerusalem reported that the tenders were published on Friday for new homes in four existing settlements across the West Bank, including 112 in Adam, 156 in Elkana, 78 in Alfei Menashe and 84 in Kiryat Arba.
Building settlements in the West Bank is considered illegal under international law and opposed by the United States and international community as an obstacle to an eventual peace deal with the Palestinians.
Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO) official Wassel Abu Yusef told the AFP news agency that "what the Israelis announced is part of a wider war... against the Palestinian people. This is a war crime which should push the settlements issue to the International Criminal Court".
Daniel Seidemann, head of Terrestrial Jerusalem, whose group particularly monitors settlement in Israeli-annexed East Jerusalem, told the AFP that he believed building plans were likely to be announced there soon.
"It's the opening of the settlement floodgates," he said. "I don't think it's over."
His group also linked the publication of tenders with Israel's March 17 election, where Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud Party will be competing with others for the settler vote.
"Today's W Bank tenders could not be published without Netanyahu's explicit knowledge and consent. Expect more and worse before elections," the group tweeted on Friday morning.
The Palestinians want both the occupied West Bank and East Jerusalem, captured by Israel in the 1967 Middle East war, to be part of a future state.
Must an independent Palestine necessarily be Jew-free?
Also, lol at the 'war crime' accusations.
Daniel Seidemann, head of Terrestrial Jerusalem, whose group particularly monitors settlement in Israeli-annexed East Jerusalem
Annexed from whom?
Independent Palestine ? The rate at which Israel regularly grabs Palestinians land more important question here would be will there be any Palestinian land left in near future.
A single state or a few giant open prisons of Palestinians is the long term outcome.
The myth about this set of maps has been debunked long ago. The one on the left marks privately-owned Jewish land in white while presenting the rest as "Palestinian land". What part of this land was actually owned by Palestinians, and how big a chunk was the government land, be it mandate or prevously The Ottoman government?
A single state or a few giant open prisons of Palestinians is the long term outcome.
These maps again!
They don't portray what you think, or they claim, they do.
When I was in the newbies I did a fairly long post on these maps, since then someone has done a much better job:
http://www.thetower.org/article/the-mendacious-maps-of-palestinian-loss/
http://www.thetower.org/article/the-mendacious-maps-of-palestinian-loss/
From your article.
"We move to the fourth map, shameless deception is the only thing that remains consistent. This map, usually labeled either 2005 or “present,” purports to show the distribution of political control following the Oslo process and the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. The patches of Palestinian land in the West Bank are areas handed over to the Palestinian Authority in the 1990s, mostly under the 1995 Oslo II agreement. Expanding upon the autonomy put in place after previous agreements in the Oslo process since 1993, this agreement created a complex patchwork of administrative and security zones, splitting the West Bank into areas of exclusive Palestinian control, joint control, and Israeli control. It was meant as a five-year interim arrangement, after which a final status agreement would be negotiated."
Israel will never hand over the remaining occupied territories. So the final map is accurate as to the future in my opinion. No two state solution.
The map is ridiculous as, first of all, it doesn't even include the territory east of the river Jordan. And it also, almost comically, implies that every single centimeter of 'Palestine' (in green) was owned by the Arabs.
I'm astounded. Are you guys denying Israel's perpetual land encroachment?
My problem is with the maps. I'm not denying that the Palestinians have become a minority in a land where they were once a majority, or that the Israelis have seized territory opportunistically on occasion (And there are elements of the article I posted that I disagree with, especially the characterization of the 48 and 67 wars).
But these maps are as blatant propaganda as you'll see, only obscuring what is a complex historical process in order to score cheap points .
You may want to present the Olmert plan map to support your argument...or not.
I definitely assign fault to Israel as well. But building housing for its people on Palestinian land is quite a different thing than the daily violence brought Hamas against Israelis.
Hammas had held year long truces with Israel. Israel is the one that brings daily violence on the Palestinians. The Palestinians are jailed in their own nation
I think you will find that Israelis are also jailed in their 'own nation', if there's a reason for it.
Why do you post in a thread you know so little about? The Palestinians are living under occupation. It really isn't that hard to follow. Id suggest you google what living under occupation is.
I suppose building on their land, cutting their water, food and electricity, marginalising and abusing them physically under the guise of the army is fine?
The thing that annoys me most about some of you commenting in this thread is that you have this belief that it's an even playing field. That Hamas are terrorists camped up plotting in tunnels beneath the cities. And that the balls in the Palestinians court and hence need to make the effort for some sort of peace treaty. At the end of the day, Hamas are democratically elected.
Palestinians are living under occupation in their own land. Israeli apartheid exists. This isn't my opinion, or an agenda. This is simply how it is currently.
Netanyuhu has systematically attempted to cut Palestinian bloodlines (600+ children killed) and further encroach on land that isn't his. There is no defence.
Palestinians are living under occupation in their own land. Israeli apartheid exists. This isn't my opinion, or an agenda. This is simply how it is currently.
Netanyuhu has systematically attempted to cut Palestinian bloodlines (600+ children killed) and further encroach on land that isn't his. There is no defence.
Are you Hellboy?
What? What's Hellboy?
It's not necessarily fair that the Palestinians, despite the fact that they're militarily the weaker party, should be expected to be the side making concessions. That's the reality of the situation, and all similar situations, though. In any given conflict, the stronger side will only concede anything of their own good will, and then only rarely, since everything is perceived in zero-sum terms. A while back in this thread I tried to flesh out a little thought experiment on how the Palestinians might potentially break the stalemate without officially conceding core demands, I don't know if you read it but here it is - https://www.redcafe.net/threads/israeli-palestinian-conflict.306471/page-179#post-16675517
Also, the question of which side is stronger isn't as clear-cut as it might seem. Obviously the Israelis are militarily, economically, and diplomatically far superior (the latter due to the support they receive from the US). Yet the Palestinians have some advantages which they and the Israelis are very aware of. Chat to many Palestinians and you'll find a real sense of confidence that they're destined to succeed in this conflict. They have the moral and sometimes diplomatic backing of the entire Islamic world, military assistance from an alternate collection of Arab and Muslim states, higher birth rates than the Israelis, growing support in the Western world, and most of all a firm belief that history is on their side - that the Israelis are nothing more than the new Crusaders, destined to be defeated by the real inhabitants of the land. All of this means that, in my opinion, a majority of Palestinians still believe they can regain by force what they have lost by force (i.e. reverse the consequences of the war of '48).
Damn....the Israelis are good, they should stop messing with them and learn their language, then they would learn the word "civilization" and actually enjoy life.A single state or a few giant open prisons of Palestinians is the long term outcome.
I'm not sure what this means. Could you clarify the systematically attempted to cut Palestinian bloodlines part?
The land was not Britian/France's to divide and bring in people from outside that land to live in. For me it is simply not right at all. However looking at it from a political perspective the Ottoman Empire were on the losing side and the winners could do whatever the feck they wanted. The manner in which the Jewish people have suffered in Europe for all those years was terrible but to simply give them land in which other people lived (i'm aware they purchased the land but the British intent was for a Jewish state to be created) is not right. The Arabs were indeed stupid for trusting the Brits and they continue to be stupid to this day.
In any case, Israel has existed now for 60+ years families have been rooted there now and the Israelis have made a life for themselves on that land. A two state solution is the only real solution for the problem at hand. I can honestly see this happening in the future. I believe it is in the hands of Israel, hopefully younger generations will take leadership positions and they would be more inclined to make some concessions.
In any case, Israel has existed now for 60+ years families have been rooted there now and the Israelis have made a life for themselves on that land. A two state solution is the only real solution for the problem at hand. I can honestly see this happening in the future. I believe it is in the hands of Israel, hopefully younger generations will take leadership positions and they would be more inclined to make some concessions.
300+ children killed in 2008/2009
10 members of the Al Dalu family killed in 2012 (5 of which were children) 105 civilians killed (don't have statistics for how many of these were children).
500+ children killed in 2014-25% of all Palestinians killed were children.
They're targeting children for a reason (under the guise of war), and I believe the reason is to cut Palestinian bloodlines.
Agree with your first paragraph.
What exactly is Israel's justification for these settlements? To me they seem antithetical to a nation wanting peace.
They don't want peace. They want Palestinian land, and to remove Palestinian existence from the land. This is the ultimate Zionist goal, for them to have total control, populated by their own people. There is a guise of wanting peace, but it is a ruse.
Isn't that exactly what the Palestinians want too though? Try replacing Palestinian with Israeli, and Zionist with Hamas and tell me that isn't exactly what they want too?
I'll help you out:
Actually-when the land was under Muslim (Ottoman rule), the Jews weren't persecuted. They were allowed to freely move and to worship in their sacred places In fact, the Zionist movement began to gain pace because the Jewish population of Jerusalem began increasing (whilst under Ottoman rule), and they began building outside of the Old City. This wasn't a bad thing. Jewish people weren't barred from the Wall or their synagogue, and neither were Christians from the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. I'm not saying they lived in perfect harmony without any bloodshed, but the bloodshed was isolated, and there wasn't anyway near the level of animosity as there is today. I think when the Zionist movement began taking form, the Sephardic Jews (? can't remember 100%) in Jerusalem at the time were actually against the idea.
Edit: wanted to add this is in direct contrast to now when Palestinians are being barred from going to Al Aqsa mosque and the Palestinians are living under occupation.
That's all very well, but we are where we are now and have to deal with the situation in front of us. In which case my amendment to your statement stands.
The situation in front of us is
"They don't want peace. They want Palestinian land, and to remove Palestinian existence from the land. This is the ultimate Zionist goal, for them to have total control, populated by their own people. There is a guise of wanting peace, but it is a ruse."
This is the situation in front of us.
And there we have the crux of the problem.
Why the Europeans and the liberal media worry more about Israel/Palestine then Ukraine/Russia? 2200 people died in Ukraine and 2100 in Palestine but in Ukraine they still dying every day.
Longer conflict, more familiarity.
The Ukraine conflict is between two (relatively) equal factions, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is heavily lopsided with the former possessing a huge military and diplomatic stranglehold over the latter.
32,000 children were killed in the first gulf war.
10,000 plus children dead in Syria not including those who are raped and tortured.
Israel has done a lot of reprehensible stuff but to think they are deliberately targeting children is approaching conspiracy theory territory. When you used bombs and missles and other explosive type weapons then you get that famous term collateral damage . Tell me how many kids America has killed in Pakistan and whether you believe Obama is trying to cut Pakistani bloodlines.
The Palestinians in the WB and Gaza have higher life expectancy, lower child mortality rate, and higher ratio of literacy and higher education compared to most other Arab states.
Them Zionists are crap with that genocide business. They should focus on being victims again. They were bloody good at that (if those stories were not just a Zionist conspiracy...)
Them Zionists are crap with that genocide business. They should focus on being victims again. They were bloody good at that (if those stories were not just a Zionist conspiracy...)
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Bombs, missiles and other explosive type devices? Collateral damage?
This is from one month (not from the 3 conflicts I outlined earlier).
Edit: when that list was being compiled a further 43 civilians were killed.
It's interesting you brought up America. I'm from Punjab as well and I've seen the damage drones have done and have been very vocal of this as well, and likewise there is no justification. But America has no desire to eradicate Pakistan.
Now I agree, cutting of bloodlines is my own opinion. But I can't think of any other reason why a soldier would want to shoot a child. I can't think of a soldier wanting to shoot a 3 year old other than 1) sadism 2) an agenda. Sadism would suggest this is unique to the killer. But this is widespread.
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