3 rockets hit Israel, so they kick ten types of shit into every man women and child they can get their hands on.
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
But in Canada and the US, they are still residents of the country and allowed to vote I'm guessing
Technically I'm not "Canadian" (I think that's mostly to decide who pays for my healthcare costs), but they do allow me to vote and live wherever I like, yes.
Rockets hitting Tel Aviv area - this does not end well
So the people of Tel Aviv get a taste of what their fellow Citizens in the South have been through for 12 years.
Avatar, how spring has treated you? Any idea who launched those rockets from Egypt to Israel earlier this week?
*checks map to see where Haifa is*
If we agree that violence isn't the answer to the unjust expansion of Israeli settlements and the nature of the occupation/blockade, then we need to separate those issues from what has been happening. Either Hamas chooses to support a policy of violence as a way of achieving its political aims or it does not. Currently it is committed to violence, and if the principle of self defence means anything, clearly Israel does have a right to use force in order to reduce the military capabilities of Hamas. It seems to me that you are justifying the policy of violence by Hamas.
The only way Palestine is going to achieve its goals is by committing itself to peace. Until then, the situation regarding the occupation and the blockade will remain the same and military action by Israel will always be on the cards. Supporters of Palestine who choose to ignore the war crimes of Hamas are doing nothing to help the situation.
That's not strictly true, is it?
Rockets have been fired from Gaza into Israel for months. Even before this week's events, 800 rockets have been fired into Israel since the turn of 2012, usually targeted at civilian areas, often during rush hours in order to increase the likelihood of civilian casualties.
Yanks
If Hizbollah joins the dance we'll be right in it. Life in Tel Aviv was uniterrupted when Haifa was bombarded in 2006.
Except 120 rockets hit Israel in the weeks preceding the killing of the military leader of a terrorist organisation, but let's just ignore that.
Why did they fire the rockets?
I sincerely believe there are two groups of Israelis - one which what nothing more than peace and are happy for Israel to abide by international law and to live alongside a pre-1967 Palestine. The other are a violent bunch who genuinely believe they are divinely entitled to ALL of 'greater Israel' and hence persist in violent landgrabs in the WB. When I refer to ultra-Zionists I refer to the latter group. Unfortunately, this current government seems to protect them and greenlight their crimes. They are much a hinderance to the peace process as Hamas are.
What is their land? This a serious question - are Israel not entitled to any land?
Just curious here so I'm going to play devil's advocate abit. Now I am in no way endorsing the targeting of Israeli civilians, but assuming Hamas lay down their weapons and that Palestinians abandon any form of armed struggle - you really think the Hawkish element of the Israel are simply going to say "fair play, we'll stop with the settlements then". Like hell they will, Netanyahu himself has very recently approved to double the funding of illegal Israeli settlements - does that sound like a man who's willing to make concessions?
We know for a fact diplomacy isn't working too, not when the US vetos every UN resolution condemning illegal settlement program, or initiatives towards Palestinian statehood...so they're already fighting an impossible battle there.
The fact of the matter is organisations like Hamas exist and enjoy popular support not because of the merits of their virtues, but rather because of Israeli government - they're the best recruitment tool Hamas has.
I'm pretty sure he's referring to the Palestinian territories as they are defined under international law. They're currently being illegally occupied and the Israeli government are sponsoring a settler colonisation program there.
ultra or not, Zionism is about a national home for the Jewish people. We don't have an Arab, let alone a Palestinian, partner for an agreement based on this principle. This renders WB "landgrabs" irrelevant.
Zionism is an inherently racist ideology. It shares virtues with Islamic extremism. To sugercoat it with the principles of Judaism only mocks the faith.
I'm not. After all he opposes Zionism.
And what do you think motivates the illegal settlers in the WB above all? Olive trees?
Zionism adresses the national aspirations of the Jewish people, and is anything but religious extremism. In fact, the Zionist ideology is largely secular.
Same here. It comes across as if he believes Israel has no right to any part of the land. That's why I'm waiting to see his answer.
No need for slogans, RK. Those you refere to as "settlers" include a large majority of law-abiding citizens who would abandon their homes if and when the democratically elected government tells them to (see the evacuation of the Gaza Strip settlements). Then there are elements who are indeed as much as obstacle to peaceful existence here as Hamas, but these are a minority thankfully.
firstly both sides don't recognise each other as legitimate 'nations'.
..too much history...
you lot will never be in peace.
..too much history...
you lot will never be in peace.
Oh deary me. Your leftie/Islamic leanings do you no favours
"Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention (1949) states: 'The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies'" But Israel IS NOT an "Occupying Power" it is a liberator of land illegally annexed by Jordan in defiance of The Mandate For Palestine which states that no foreign power shall exercise control over Palestine. In 1967 Israel repelled the Jordanians who settled with a peace deal. Hence both Jews and Arabs now live in the West Bank as designated by The Mandate.
You cannot "illegally occupy" what you have been given legal title to - unless you now call Israel a foreign country exercising control over Palestine. Even if you argue that then Jews STILL have equal rights of settlement in West Bank
...
To be honest with you I don't think many here or elsewhere can actually say who the Palestinian people are, what their collective history is or indeed how come they didn't even know they were a nation 100 years ago.
Having said that, the vast majority of Israelis accept that peace for Israel would require an independent Palestinian state.
Fearless
I've edited your post buddy. Debate without name calling, please.
I've edited your post buddy. Debate without name calling, please.
Even if this was the case, you can bet your house that any withdrawl from the West Bank has just been taken off the menu.
Not even the most left-wing Israeli will buy into that fantasy if the stupid withdrawl from Gaza and immediate Hamas coup is anything to go by.
Israel will not be spit-roasted.
Sultan I think Fearless referred to Hamas as the scum, not the poster.
Correct.
To quote Plech, (currently sitting on his hands trying not to post on this thread)
"It seems to me that complaining about this is a bit like complaining that a home for battered women is sexist because it doesn't admit men. The place exists because Europeans (and later Arabs) couldn't stop themselves massacring their Jewish populations. If it's therefore racist in conception, so be it - better to live in a racist state than not to live at all."
Israeli poster from the newbie wanted to have their say:
DrunkenYoda said:
If I'm understanding the article correctly you could argue that Hamas is illegally occupying Gaza which according to Oslo was originally given for governance to the Palestinian National Authority.
The essential problem is when such an exclusive ideology permits outsiders from all corners of the globe to be entitled to a home at the expense of a native. Jews and Arabs had lived harmoniously alongside one another for centuries - its only when Zionism creeped its head and then soured the entire situation.
Hamas was democratically elected by the Gaza electorate. The Palestinians had no say on whether they approved Israeli's settling in their territories.
'Spit-roasted' by whom exactly? The stone-throwers against one of the most powerful militaries in the world? The neighbouring Arab states who are too busy killing each other? (And even if they were united would probably still be humiliated in another Arab-Israeli war).
And I'm not sure why you're speaking on behalf of the Leftie Israeli consensus - most the ones I've spoken to (moderates included) see no issues with abandoning the settlement program in the WB.
DrunkenYoda, firstly, I hope you and your loved ones are safe, nobody deserves to feel threatened in their home. However, the people who's homes are under questioned, shouldn't be there in the first place, it's not Israeli land, it stems back to 1881, you can't just come in, take peoples land and claim it as a God given right.
Hamas are a terrorist organisation, and an extremist one at that, but that's not why Israel have problems with them. The IDF are just as bad, the only difference is they're organised.
I will never have to go through what you are, so I won't understand it as well, but I have close family members who have gone through the same situation (being bombed) up North, and what they have gone through is similar to what the Palestinians, and to a lesser but no less important amount, the Israelis.
When people are persecuted, tortured and run out of their homes, extremism happens, think the IRA (a once respected organisation turned terrorist paramilitary organisation.) Think the rise of the far right in Greece. When bad things happen, these people think they have an excuse. I'm not saying I sympathize with extremism, Jihad or Hamas, but what I'm saying is, your Government is in no means innocent, it's worse.
Hamas are a terrorist organisation, and an extremist one at that, but that's not why Israel have problems with them. The IDF are just as bad, the only difference is they're organised.
I will never have to go through what you are, so I won't understand it as well, but I have close family members who have gone through the same situation (being bombed) up North, and what they have gone through is similar to what the Palestinians, and to a lesser but no less important amount, the Israelis.
When people are persecuted, tortured and run out of their homes, extremism happens, think the IRA (a once respected organisation turned terrorist paramilitary organisation.) Think the rise of the far right in Greece. When bad things happen, these people think they have an excuse. I'm not saying I sympathize with extremism, Jihad or Hamas, but what I'm saying is, your Government is in no means innocent, it's worse.
If you have an Isreali leader (not Bibi) that can convince the Palestinians you are sincerely working towards this, you will get somewhere.
In his second term, I hope Obama will work with both sides towards this.
'Liberator' ?
That's an interesting justification used for the thousands of Arabs expelled by the Israelis at the time - they weren't being violently expelled from homes they've occupied for generations, they were being 'liberated'. I'm sure their grandchildren sitting in refugee camps are thrilled with their saviours.
You're clutching to straws which don't really exist. Its a simple matter really:
United Nations Security Council Resolution 242:
Those territories include the WB and East Jerusalem, which Israel are currently occupying. Their violations of this have been crystal to the point where follow-up resolutions were out through condemning settlement expansion within these territories (vetoed by the US). The legal standings for this aren't even debatable.
I sincerely hope so, though his track record for neutrality hasn't exactly been entirely convincing considering he's been wheeling out Susan rice to veto any resolution which condemns Israel and puts forward the motion of a Palestinian state.
I'm hoping he'll be slightly more impartial in his second term now that he's definitely wrapped up the election, though I won't hold my breath.
I wont put any stock on Natenyaho...but if they get somone like Rabin, perhaps. Obama wont have to worry about relection and if they do not get radicals on the Palestinian side...
As much as I would like to see this as I said, think there is so much chance of this not happening. History, Religion...distrust.
As much as I would like to see this as I said, think there is so much chance of this not happening. History, Religion...distrust.