Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

holyland red said:
They always are to outside observers, who pick a side in the conflict. At the same time the locals feel the situation is rather depressing.
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I couldn't agree more, depression is a far more apt adjective. Interesting was the wrong word. I was trying to convey the sense of unpredictability, not make it seem as though one should be engaged in the goings on like some twisted form of entertainment.
 
Church o Choccy said:
I couldn't agree more, depression is a far more apt adjective. Interesting was the wrong word. I was trying to convey the sense of unpredictability, not make it seem as though one should be engaged in the goings on like some twisted form of entertainment.
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If you weigh up the tons of fake concern over here you can not avoid the conclusion that these cycles of violence serve for internet arm twisting, mostly by people who are not really interested in the actual facts.

The depressing part of it all is that this cycle isn't over but it is fair to say that it is not the last. Israel's retalations are unavoidable as you well know, and at the same time thay can not change the current situation dramatically.

Middle East, 2012.
 
holyland red said:
The depressing part of it all is that this cycle isn't over but it is fair to say that it is not the last. Israel's retalations are unavoidable as you well know, and at the same time thay can not change the current situation dramatically.

Middle East, 2012.
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Yep, Cast Lead changed nothing and neither will this, with the minor exception of a few knesset seats. Israel aren't about to level Gaza City and neither will they return to occupation so it seems like it could be pretty much be a repeat of 2009. Similarly, for all the fuss over the Observer Status bid it won't actually change anything in the medium term.

I'm certain that you and I would differ on any number of political viewpoints, HR, but I believe we can both agree that the cyclical nature of this non progression is fecking horrible.
 
Raoul said:
Where does Hamas get its weapons from?
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Is that a loaded, rhetorical question or a genuine enquiry? If the latter it depends whether you mean where do they come from geographically, in which case Egypt is the simple answer. But in terms of where they come from before that and how they are funded there are many more actors at work.
 
Current Death Toll
13 dead - 5 militants/terrorists/freedom fighters, 8 civilians on the Palestinian side
3 civilians killed on the Israeli side
 
Church o Choccy said:
I'm certain that you and I would differ on any number of political viewpoints, HR, but I believe we can both agree that the cyclical nature of this non progression is fecking horrible.
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I'm sure we would. There is a prevailing viewpoint that the Jewish people do not have a right for self-determination. As long as this is expressed in Dublin or on message boards it is potentially entertaining, but when it is a concensus among the other side of the conflict it leaves no hope for an alternative to these exchanges.
 
I'm not sure anyone's expressed the viewpoint that they "don't have the right to self-determination". What they don't have the right to do is steadily and illegally encroach upon and settle lands which don't belong to them, but you keep up your alarmist rhetoric by all means.

Also, this is about Israel, not about the Jews. More alarmist rhetoric. You're getting very good at that.
 
Count Orduck said:
I'm not sure anyone's expressed the viewpoint that they "don't have the right to self-determination". What they don't have the right to do is steadily and illegally encroach upon and settle lands which don't belong to them, but you keep up your alarmist rhetoric by all means.

Also, this is about Israel, not about the Jews. More alarmist rhetoric. You're getting very good at that.
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BS, Israel is the expression of the Jewish people's right for self determination, endorsed by the United Nations. Anti-Zionists single out the Jewish people as not entitled for its nation state. Simple.

If the dispute was about borders it would have been over long ago.
 
The essential problem is that the status quo currently suits both the hawkish Zionists and Hamas alike. For the former, no peace serves as a justification for the ongoing land theft and failure to declare borders, for the latter it ensures ongoing support for their extreme doctrine and political leverage over their Fatah rivals.

Unfortunately with the likes of Netanyahu at the helm and the US giving diplomatic immunity to Israel, this trend isnt likely to shatter anytime soon. The bloody cycle continues.
 
Kaos said:
The essential problem is that the status quo currently suits both the hawkish Zionists and Hamas alike. For the former, no peace serves as a justification for the ongoing land theft and failure to declare borders, for the latter it ensures ongoing support for their extreme doctrine and political leverage over their Fatah rivals.

Unfortunately with the likes of Netanyahu at the helm and the US giving diplomatic immunity to Israel, this trend isnt likely to shatter anytime soon. The bloody cycle continues.
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The essential problem is that the Arabs don't want Israel.

Except those Arabs that live in it of course.
 
Fearless said:
The essential problem is that the Arabs don't want Israel.

Except those Arabs that live in it of course.
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Now you're just being silly and circumventing the issue. So whats the solution then? Lock the Palestinians into living in appalling conditions in Gaza while stealing more land in the West Bank?
 
Kaos said:
The essential problem is that the status quo currently suits both the hawkish Zionists and Hamas alike. For the former, no peace serves as a justification for the ongoing land theft and failure to declare borders, for the latter it ensures ongoing support for their extreme doctrine and political leverage over their Fatah rivals.

Unfortunately with the likes of Netanyahu at the helm and the US giving diplomatic immunity to Israel, this trend isnt likely to shatter anytime soon. The bloody cycle continues.
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I've never actually realized who his dad was until there. Benzion Netanyahu wrote The Founding Fathers of Zionism didn't he?
 
JakeC said:
I've never actually realized who his dad was until there. Benzion Netanyahu wrote The Founding Fathers of Zionism didn't he?
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I'm not sure, haven't read any of his publications. And for good reason too - the man makes his son look like tree-hugging saint.
 
holyland red said:
BS, Israel is the expression of the Jewish people's right for self determination, endorsed by the United Nations. Anti-Zionists single out the Jewish people as not entitled for its nation state. Simple.

If the dispute was about borders it would have been over long ago.
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Are you accusing those who are against Israel's policies here of being anti-semitic?
 
Kaos said:
I'm not sure, haven't read any of his publications. And for good reason too - the man makes his son look like tree-hugging saint.
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He's a loon. Contradicts himself as much as Romney.
 
Kaos said:
Now you're just being silly and circumventing the issue. So whats the solution then? Lock the Palestinians into living in appalling conditions in Gaza while stealing more land in the West Bank?
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A viable solution??? I believe that direct negotiations between Israel and Jordan be undertaken to return the status quo of the West Bank to that which existed at 5 June 1967 - as far as is now possible given the lapse of 44 years and the events that have since occurred - and that sovereignty of the West Bank be allocated between Israel and Jordan accordingly.

Jordan illegally occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem between 1948-1967 and the world did not fall in.

The attempt to create a new Arab state between Israel and Jordan - where none ever existed in recorded history - has failed after 17 years of abysmal efforts to achieve that solution.
Jordan will not readily agree to such negotiations. There will need to be international pressure to bring Jordan to the negotiating table.


The Hashemite (King hussein etc.) regime has done more for the Palestinian Arabs than any other Arab politician or Arab state having secured 78% of Palestine as an exclusively Arab state.
 
Kaos said:
The essential problem is that the status quo currently suits both the hawkish Zionists and Hamas alike. For the former, no peace serves as a justification for the ongoing land theft and failure to declare borders, for the latter it ensures ongoing support for their extreme doctrine and political leverage over their Fatah rivals.

Unfortunately with the likes of Netanyahu at the helm and the US giving diplomatic immunity to Israel, this trend isnt likely to shatter anytime soon. The bloody cycle continues.
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What's non-hawkish Zionism in your opinion, RK?
 
holyland red said:
Is this really how you read my post?
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I'm not really sure how to read your post, that's why I'm asking for clarification.

For what it's worth, I'm not fond of the nation state of Israel's origins, but I accept that it exists as a sovereign entity now and that it would hurt far more people to "take it away". The arab countries need to accept that it exists and then the region can move forward. I'm hardly on the side of the Arab countries in this either; many of them are appallingly backwards morally and ethically.

I do, however, feel for the downtrodden in all situations and for the good of people on both sides this needs to end soon because a whole new generation is being caught up in it. Israeli civilians are being killed for doing nothing more than living and Palestinians are being killed in retaliation. A compromise needs to be reached and it needs to be reached soon, and neither side seems willing to do so. The Palestinians and arab countries need to stop antagonising Israel because it's achieving nothing, and Israel needs to stop seizing more and more land. It needs to work with what it's got, like every other country in the world.
 
Fearless said:
The size of Israel is about half of one percent of the Arab world, yet they want Israel to accept millions of Arabs whose grandparents once lived there
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As opposed to you who claim territory on the grounds that your great-great (x70)-grandparents lived there about 2000 years ago? What about accepting the realpolitik and negotiating a just settlement for the region.
 
Israel are allowed to though Peter, God sake, just play by the rules Peter!
 
One civilian, and potentially innocent victim speaking out for other potentially innocent victims.

A message to Israel's leaders: Don't defend me – not like this
As she listens to the rockets mortar bombs raining in her yard, a resident of Kibbutz Kfar Aza asks the government to rethink its operation on the Gaza Strip.
By Michal Vasser | Nov.15, 2012 | 3:21 PM | 20

By Haaretz | Nov.15,2012 | 3:21 PM | 110

The first thing I want to say is: Please don’t defend me. Not like this.

I am sitting in my safe room in Kibbutz Kfar Aza and listening to the bombardment of the all-out war outside. I am no longer able to distinguish between “our” bombardments and “theirs." The truth is that the kibbutz children do this better than I do, their “musical ear” having been developed since they were very young, and they are able to differentiate between an artillery shell and a missile fired from a helicopter and between a mortar bomb and a Qassam. Good for them.

Is this what “defending the home” looks like? I don’t understand – did all our leaders sleep through their history classes? Or maybe they studied the Mapai school curriculum or that of Education Minister Gideon Sa’ar (to my regret, the difference is not all that great) – and have wrongly interpreted the word “defense”? Does defending the well being of citizens mean a war of armageddon every few years? Hasn’t any politician ever heard of the expression “long-term planning?"

If you want to defend me – then please: Don’t send the Israel Defense Forces for us in order to "win." Start thinking about the long term and not just about the next election. Try to negotiate until white smoke comes up through the chimney. Hold out a hand to Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas. Stop with the “pinpoint assassinations” and look into the civilians’ eyes on the other side as well.

I know that most of the public will accuse me of being a “bleeding heart.” But I am the one who is sitting here now as mortar bombs fall in my yard, not Sa’ar, not Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and not Labor MK Shelly Yacimovich or Yesh Atid party head Yair Lapid, either. I am the one who has chosen to raise her children here even though I had and still have other options.

It is possible to accuse me of a lack of Zionism, it is possible to accuse me of flabbiness and weak-mindedness but it is impossible to accuse me of hypocrisy. My children have served in combat units in addition to their contribution of “year of service” for the country, voluntarily. We live here and we love this country.

Our war is a war for the coloration of the state, not its borders. For its democratic nature and for human dignity in it. For sanity. So please stop killing civilians on the other side of the fence in order to defend me.

If you are interested in stopping the hostile actions from the other side – open your ears and start listening. If we are important to you – please stop defending us by means of missiles, “pinpoints” and “aeronautical components.” Instead of Operation Pillar of Defense embark on Operation Hope for the Future. This is more complicated, you need more patience and it is less popular – but it is the only way out.

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/a-me...on-t-defend-me-not-like-this.premium-1.478105
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Need a Palestinian civilian to now say the same thing to Hamas. Get me my freedom, get me my nation, but not like this!
 
A rocket was earlier launched towards the city of Rishon Lezion, the farthest Hamas reached so far. Now a siren was sounded in Tel Aviv, which is even farther and of course the most populated area in Israel. Not certain what happened and where, if at all, a rocket landed. If true, this will only strengthen Israel's resolve to continue with the operation.

Update: 2-3 rockets landed around Tel Aviv, not in a populated area.
 
holyland red said:
BS, Israel is the expression of the Jewish people's right for self determination, endorsed by the United Nations. Anti-Zionists single out the Jewish people as not entitled for its nation state. Simple.

If the dispute was about borders it would have been over long ago.
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Rubbish. The issue isn't with a deep-seated problem with the concept of the Jewish peoples' right for self determination. The problem is that this latest incarnation of Jewish self-determination came about due to mass immigration and forced displacements.

If that land had, in 1948, been overwhelmingly Jewish in character, ethnicity and religion, there would have been no issue with the surrounding people over self-determination. If this piece of land existed elsewhere, they would have had even less issue.

I'm sure most caucasian Americans don't have an issue with the concept of Native American self-determination. It is when this concept ends up in them losing land or rights that it may become slightly more problematic.
 
holyland red said:
While you're at it, excuse the Israeli leadership for making a more concentrated effort than just hoping.
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They did more than just hope in Operation Cast Lead and now looks like we're possibly going to get a repeat 4 years later, once Hamas continue on their moronic drive forward.
 
africanspur said:
I'm sure most caucasian Americans don't have an issue with the concept of Native American self-determination. It is when this concept ends up in them losing land or rights that it may become slightly more problematic.
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In Canada they just give them money instead of land now. In the US they give them Casinos, sometimes in Canada, too.

Maybe Israel can give the Palestinians some Casinos?*

*I realize this is probably contrary to Islam.
 
Dr. Dwayne said:
In Canada they just give them money instead of land now. In the US they give them Casinos, sometimes in Canada, too.

Maybe Israel can give the Palestinians some Casinos?*

*I realize this is probably contrary to Islam.
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But in Canada and the US, they are still residents of the country and allowed to vote I'm guessing :angel:
 
Neutral said:
One civilian, and potentially innocent victim speaking out for other potentially innocent victims.



Need a Palestinian civilian to now say the same thing to Hamas. Get me my freedom, get me my nation, but not like this!
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Good luck finding one whose got the kind of balls required.

This is Hamas..........


 
Israel killed its subcontractor in Gaza

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diploma...in-gaza.premium-1.477886#.UKT-XF8nbmw.twitter

The political outcome of the operation will become clear on January 22, but the strategic ramifications are more complex: Israel will have to find a new subcontractor to replace Ahmed Jabari as its border guard in the south.

Ahmed Jabari was a subcontractor, in charge of maintaining Israel's security in Gaza. This title will no doubt sound absurd to anyone who in the past several hours has heard Jabari described as "an arch-terrorist," "the terror chief of staff" or "our Bin Laden."

But that was the reality for the past five and a half years. Israel demanded of Hamas that it observe the truce in the south and enforce it on the multiplicity of armed organizations in the Gaza Strip. The man responsible for carrying out this policy was Ahmed Jabari.

In return for enforcing the quiet, which was never perfect, Israel funded the Hamas regime through the flow of shekels in armored trucks to banks in Gaza, and continued to supply infrastructure and medical services to the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip. Jabari was also Israel's partner in the negotiations for the release of Gilad Shalit; it was he who ensured the captive soldier's welfare and safety, and it was he who saw to Shalit's return home last fall.

Now Israel is saying that its subcontractor did not do his part and did not maintain the promised quiet on the southern border. The repeated complaint against him was that Hamas did not succeed in controlling the other organizations, even though it is not interested in escalation. After Jabari was warned openly (Amos Harel and Avi Issacharoff reported here at the beginning of this week that the assassination of top Hamas people would be renewed), he was executed on Wednesday in a public assassination action, for which Israel hastened to take responsibility. The message was simple and clear: You failed - you're dead. Or, as Defense Minister Ehud Barak likes to say, "In the Middle East there is no second chance for the weak."

The assassination of Jabari will go down in history as another showy military action initiated by an outgoing government on the eve of an election.

This is what researcher Prof. Yagil Levy has called "fanning the conflict as an intra-state control strategy:" The external conflict helps a government strengthen its standing domestically because the public unites behind the army, and social and economic problems are edged off the national agenda.

This recipe is familiar from 1955, when David Ben-Gurion returned from his exile in Sde Boker and led the Israel Defense Forces to a retaliatory action in Gaza, and his party, Mapai, to victory in the election. (Barak recalled this period with nostalgia, when he spoke last week at a memorial for Moshe Dayan). Ever since, whenever the ruling party feels threatened at the ballot box, it puts its finger on the trigger. The examples are common knowledge: the launch of the Shavit 2 missile in the summer of 1961, in the midst of the Lavon affair; the bombing of the Iraqi reactor in 1981; Operation Grapes of Wrath in Lebanon in 1996, and Operation Cast Lead in Gaza on the eve of the 2009 election. In the two latter cases, the military action turned into a defeat in the election.

There is a disagreement among historians as to whether it is necessary to add the Yom Kippur War to the list. In that conflict, which broke out on the eve of the 1973 election, the Arabs fired first, but their decision to go to war was taken in the context of the increasingly extreme position of Prime Minister Golda Meir's government which had refused Egyptian President Anwar Sadat's peace offer and declared an expansion of Israeli settlements in Sinai.

This, for example, is the opinion of researchers Prof. Motti Golani and Shoshana Ishoni-Barri.

The current operation, Pillar of Defense, belongs in the same category. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is interested in neutralizing every possible rival, and Defense Minister Ehud Barak is fighting for enough votes to return to the Knesset. A war against Hamas will wipe out the electoral aspirations of the ditherer, Ehud Olmert, whose disciples expected him to announce his candidacy this evening and it will kick off the agenda the "social and economic issue" that serves the Labor Party headed by MK Shelly Yacimovich.

When the cannons roar, we see only Netanyahu and Barak on the screen, and all the other politicians have to applaud them.

The political outcome of the operation will become clear on January 22. The strategic ramifications are more complex: Israel will have to find a new subcontractor to replace Ahmed Jabari as its border guard in the south, and it will also have to ensure that its action in Gaza does not cause the collapse of its peace treaty with Egypt under the leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood, the Hamas movement's patron.

These are not easy challenges and the results of the operation will be judged by the extent to which they are met.
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Fearless said:
Good luck finding one whose got the kind of balls required.

This is Hamas..........


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You're as usual just bringing up random acts, and pointless bullshit.

Get out of their land. Stop building on the west bank.
 
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