Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
Who aren't in the least bit biased against Israel...
Wanna talk about your bias? If you have different numbers, put them up, and I'm only too happy to use them.
I'm not a cheerleader for either side here, not sure we can say the same about you or some of the others doing the same job for the Palestinians.
I'm not point scoring, simply thought I'd put up some of the stats from overnight. If Hamas fired 99 rockets overnight, so be it.
EDIT: Haaretz 'neutral' enough for you?
Neutral, is this an attempt to discuss wars matchday-thread style? 
I'm a bit confused to be honest. If these are your 5 personal reasons for Hamas' victory in the elections and subsequent tightening of power, I don't see anything that these people you argued with 7 years ago would disagree with except perhaps number 5?
neutral, is this an attempt to discuss wars matchday-thread style?
:d
Wikipedia has a list of Israeli assassinations since the 50's: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations
I'm sure this list is incomplete. Still, not sure many missing from it would qualify as democratically-elected politicians.
There are no perhaps here. You are aware that unless 5 was there Israel would have had no problem with Hamas.
Iron Dome batteries getting a real workout...more incoming
Probably more Fajr missiles - if a couple of them get through the defensive shields and hit a crowded market/mall
Probably more Fajr missiles - if a couple of them get through the defensive shields and hit a crowded market/mall
Aye, Iranian nuclear scientists for instance. Naturally some of the assassinations are quite hard to verify too.
I'm not actually haveing a go at you on this, I'm merely pointing out that the BBC have a history of bias against Israel & so are likely to quote numbers which paint Israel in a poor light.
They may have 'only' sent over 11 rockets last night, but they have fired hundreds over the past few weeks, as has been already stated in this thread.
Also please note that some of those 'cheerleaders' for Israel are actually living in fear of these missile attacks everyday, even as we post on here.
That was a decent post by DrunkenYoda yet more or less the only response to it was:
I don't know how old he is, but he's done his 18 months, as, no doubt, has HR, this is really happening to them now & you would expect them to defend their country. In addition, I have no doubt whatsoever that they want nothing more than to live in peace with their neighbours, whereas Hammas would like nothing more than if Israel didn't exist anymore.
Don't take this personally Neutral, I'm just having general rant...
Presidents, leaders, regimes have changed plenty over many decades on both sides. Hamas and Bibi being the latest. Same underlying issues remain.
That was a decent post by DrunkenYoda yet more or less the only response to it was:
I don't know how old he is, but he's done his 18 months, as, no doubt, has HR, this is really happening to them now & you would expect them to defend their country. In addition, I have no doubt whatsoever that they want nothing more than to live in peace with their neighbours, whereas Hammas would like nothing more than if Israel didn't exist anymore.
Don't take this personally Neutral, I'm just having general rant...
It wasn't a "decent post" in any way, shape or form, unless you're the most blinkered of zionists. I appreciate he's writing it from the perspective of someone who is deeply entrenched in the middle of this as an Israeli, but it couldn't have been much more biased if it tried.
And I'm sure most Israelis would like to live in peace, everyone would, but it's not like they're just getting on with things and the mean old Arabs won't let them. The Irish would have liked to "live in peace" too, I'm sure, but they had no other choice than to rise up in violent rebellion against the oppressive British occupation.
Harry Fear has just tweeted that he is preparing to begin live streaming for the day, LIVE from Gaza City http://www.ustream.tv/user/harryfear
Harry Fear is reporting that clashes have spread into the West Bank
Harry Fear is reporting that clashes have spread into the West Bank
Unsubstantiated rubbish.
I've not been out and about much today - had a bunch of work to do and have spent most of the day in front of the computer. I've seen there's been a couple of protests throughout the West Bank and the Hamas flags have been out, even in Ramallah, with the PA leaving them alone, which is interesting.
I'll say this, there isn't the will for the 3I here, or anywhere in the WB. The economic development since 2006 along with the (relative) stability has taken it away to a large degree. This latest escalation will fuel anti Israeli sentiment but I'll stick my neck out and say it won't kick anything off here unless the Israelis decide to provoke it.
I wonder where "Palestine" will be after this. Will this drive a further wedge between the WB and Gaza, will Gazans interpret the PA's refusal to stand up as a betrayal too far. Or will the common enemy be enough to force the unity agreement that has stalled over the last year? Throw the observer status bid in and Abu Mazen's impending retirement and Palestine could be a changed political entity very soon.
I'll say this, there isn't the will for the 3I here, or anywhere in the WB. The economic development since 2006 along with the (relative) stability has taken it away to a large degree. This latest escalation will fuel anti Israeli sentiment but I'll stick my neck out and say it won't kick anything off here unless the Israelis decide to provoke it.
I wonder where "Palestine" will be after this. Will this drive a further wedge between the WB and Gaza, will Gazans interpret the PA's refusal to stand up as a betrayal too far. Or will the common enemy be enough to force the unity agreement that has stalled over the last year? Throw the observer status bid in and Abu Mazen's impending retirement and Palestine could be a changed political entity very soon.
How long are you going to delude yourself that this is some kind of Star Wars uprising against colonising Jews???
All of Israel is the Jewish homeland, no more so than the 'West Bank', the cradle of Judaism.
The Arabs already have 80% of 'Palestine'. Thats right - 80%.
How many more bits of our cake do you think they should kill for?
Eh? I don't think it's some sort of Star Wars uprising, I'm merely pointing out that Israel isn't innocent in all of this, as that poster tried to paint them. Their hands are bloody, too.
And when you say "All of Israel is the Jewish homeland", what do you mean? That "the Jews" (and not an ethnically-mixed Israel) legally own and should own the whole of Israel, including the West Bank? According to who? A mandate from sixty years ago drawn up by rich white men from thousands of miles away? Seems strange to cling to such a document, when it was based on politics and geography devised by colonising imperialists (the British). Hardly the most fair and reasonable people in the world; just look what they did to Ireland and India.
You can't claim the whole thing as a Jewish homeland and disregard the other ethnicities of people who live there. That is staggeringly racist.
Mentioning Judaism as a reasonable reason for reclaiming the land smacks of a holy war, to be frank. That you feel the Israelis (sorry, the "Jews") deserve to to rule all of the land because their religion considers it sacred is an utterly absurd reason, especially when at the same time you condemn the Jihadists for pursuing a policy of violent Islamic extremism. Israel seizing land because it's the "holy land" is simply a parallel expression of Judaism, no?
And when you say "All of Israel is the Jewish homeland", what do you mean? That "the Jews" (and not an ethnically-mixed Israel) legally own and should own the whole of Israel, including the West Bank? According to who? A mandate from sixty years ago drawn up by rich white men from thousands of miles away? Seems strange to cling to such a document, when it was based on politics and geography devised by colonising imperialists (the British). Hardly the most fair and reasonable people in the world; just look what they did to Ireland and India.
You can't claim the whole thing as a Jewish homeland and disregard the other ethnicities of people who live there. That is staggeringly racist.
Mentioning Judaism as a reasonable reason for reclaiming the land smacks of a holy war, to be frank. That you feel the Israelis (sorry, the "Jews") deserve to to rule all of the land because their religion considers it sacred is an utterly absurd reason, especially when at the same time you condemn the Jihadists for pursuing a policy of violent Islamic extremism. Israel seizing land because it's the "holy land" is simply a parallel expression of Judaism, no?
So take it, publicly declare the river Jordan as the border and start dishing out passports and votes to everyone who was born inside what you call "Israel".
Which would be fine, except people of Fearless' ilk make it very clear that Israel is the Jewish homeland.
This is my point. You can't have it both ways.
Please watch this presentation. While you may dismiss it, this is where I am batting from.
Why stop with the Palestinians then? Surely the Genesis definition of Greater Israel constitutes Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq etc. Why not also start taking those nations and uniting them under the banner of the Jewish promised land?
I'll have to wait a while for it to load (my internet connection is horribly slow at the best of times) but from the frozen clip I'm fairly certain I've been shown this before.
Oh wow, I'm sure a video called "What really happened in the Middle East", produced by the David Horowitz Freedom Center (widely regarded as a far-right, Islamophobic institute) and based upon a pamphlet called "Why Israel is really the victim" is going to be a bastion of unbiased journalistic integrity
Oh wow, I'm sure a video called "What really happened in the Middle East", produced by the David Horowitz Freedom Center (widely regarded as a far-right, Islamophobic institute) and based upon a pamphlet called "Why Israel is really the victim" is going to be a bastion of unbiased journalistic integrity
Dont watch it then.
At least here we have someone on the ground & a perspective form the 'other side'.
Maybe if Gaza took a leaf out of the West Bank stance, they would be able to get on with their lives without living in fear every day.
Wasn't it you who posted that thread about organising football matches between Palestinian & Israeli youngsters?
I didn't want to get into this debate but Fearless is really saying only what goes in his agenda. All of Israel is Jewish land, why? What about Arabs who born there? They don't have the right to live there, but some Jewish who came there from every part of the world have more right?
It's very sad to see how a nation who had an unprecedented suffering from a fascist system and were the biggest victims of a terrible genocide is doing now something similar to an another nation.
It's very sad to see how a nation who had an unprecedented suffering from a fascist system and were the biggest victims of a terrible genocide is doing now something similar to an another nation.
I think you are confusing Fearless's personal views with those of Israel & Israelis as a whole, and anyway, I don't believe Fearless is really that extreme in any case, I think he's just a bit pissed off overall & doesn't have HR's patience.
All Israel is Jewish place and Arabs can feck off, he is saying all the time something like this.
Israel, a state which was created in 1948 in a place which was mostly inhabited by Arabs, a state which was created from West thousands of miles away.
I do find it a little odd that a whole load of people born in the West Bank (considered by the Israeli government to be part of Israel) are denied the right to vote in Israeli elections or get Israeli passports, and yet those of Jewish ethnicity from all over the world, with no links whatsoever to modern Israel, are provided both of those things simply on request. To me that seems absurdly racist.
Only a little?
Isn't Israeli politics exactly the same?
Fearless personal viewpoints & Israeli politics exactly the same?
Err no...
As I said, I think Fearless is a bit wound up, that is all, I don't think he really has such extreme views.
Ooh, please patronisingly tell me all about the Holocaust, as if I must be ignorant of the apalling suffering and genocide that Jewish people were subjected to in the 1930s and 1940s by Nazi Germany. That'll totally win you the argument and render my point moot.
I mean they looked to me very similar. 'exactly the same' was not a right choice of words.
20% of Israeli's are Arab. They have the same democratic rights as any other citizen - and rightly so. (though discrimination sadly does occur)
The Arab's in Gaza / West Bank cannot be citizens unless Israel annexed the area.
There's are many reports via Facebook and twitter that an occupation forces aircraft, either drone or F16 has been shot down within the last 10 minutes. W will try post the video as soon as its shared.