Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Thanks for the continued patronising tone, much appreciated.

In return, let me help you as much as I can, perhaps in bullet point format? Just to ease the process.

  • Nobody said all religions are the same. In my view, they are all equally bs but they are of course not all the same in what they preach, their scriptures etc.
  • I have already told you that Muslims don't have this concept of 'the best of mankind', certainly not to anywhere near the same extent as Christians do with Jesus (partly I guess because they do not see him as God). You are superimposing part of your belief onto another.
  • You quoted scripture at me. From the Bible. In an Israel-Palestine thread. Scripture which as far as I can understand seems to be suggesting that God or some disciple of God will destroy my mother and forget my children for those listed sins (out of interest, are we following the prescribed punishments for these crimes?). That should be an end to the conversation/ thread right there.
  • I'm not going to get into a slanging match over scriptures because it is a) silly and b) as I said, I consider them as crap as each other. Suffice to say, I'm sure somebody with as in depth knowledge of you of the bible will know the relevant passages.
  • You have that view. Millions of Christians, over a 1000+ year period of history thought otherwise, as they came up with pogrom after pogrom, expulsion after expulsion, ghetto after ghetto, discrimination after discrimination and finally genocide. You've decided to dismiss all of this as peple just being a little bit ignorant/ stupid really. Such a shame you weren't around to enlighten them, might have saved European Jews a little bit of hassle.
  • You've essentially grouped a whole religion into one and then defended your own faith by using the no true scotsman argument.

You need to understand what inspired many of those actions. It's actually quite easy to point to "dominion theology" for example, a heretical belief in establishing God's Millennial Kingdom through political (among other things) action, in the formation of a protestant state after the reformation. It can be easily demonstrated that this theological position is a heresy.

The simple fact of the matter that I want you to concede is that the teachings of the religions are what really counts. If we accept that, we move the discussion away from comparing and contrasting bad men (or perhaps sincere but misguided) from different religions.
 
Hear, hear....

'Act now against poisonous ideology or face terror on Britain's streets'

The West is embroiled in a generational struggle against a poisonous brand of Islamic extremism that will bring terror to the streets of Britain unless urgent action is taken to defeat it, David Cameron warns today.

Writing in The Sunday Telegraph, the Prime Minister says the world cannot turn a blind eye to the creation of an extremist caliphate in the heart of Iraq.

Warning that Islamic State fighters already control thousands of square miles of territory, Mr Cameron says that if these “warped and barbaric” extremists are not dealt with now, they will create a “terrorist state” on the shores of the Mediterranean.

He warns that Britain will have to use its “military prowess” to help defeat “this exceptionally dangerous” movement, or else terrorists with “murderous intent” will target people in Britain.

The Prime Minister says he fears the struggle will last “the rest of my political lifetime”.

“The creation of an extremist caliphate in the heart of Iraq and extending into Syria is not a problem miles away from home. Nor is it a problem that should be defined by a war 10 years ago. It is our concern here and now,” he says.

“Because if we do not act to stem the onslaught of this exceptionally dangerous terrorist movement, it will only grow stronger until it can target us on the streets of Britain. We already know that it has the murderous intent.”

In his article, Mr Cameron says Britain and the West need a firm security response to the crisis in Iraq and that fighters from Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (Isil) cannot simply be removed by air strikes alone.

He says this must involve military action to go after the terrorists themselves, but also stresses that the Government must take uncompromising action against extremists in Britain trying to recruit fighters for jihad abroad. The Prime Minister discloses that the Government has already taken down 28,000 pieces of terrorist related material from the web, including 46 Isil videos.

He says he has also discussed the issue with Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, and pledges that anyone caught trying to recruit people in Britain – or anyone flying the black flag of Islamic State, as happened in east London earlier this month – will be arrested.

“The position is clear. If people are walking around with Isil flags or trying to recruit people to their terrorist cause they will be arrested and their materials will be seized,” he says.

“We are a tolerant people, but no tolerance should allow the room for this sort of poisonous extremism in our country.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...al-struggle-against-a-poisonous-ideology.html
 
tesco-gaza_3008684b.jpg


Tesco store trashed by Gaza protesters
Demonstrators threw produce to the floor and shouted at staff and shoppers

Police officers were attacked and stock was thrown around during a protest against the Gaza conflict at a Tesco store on Saturday.

Demonstrators, who want the supermarket to stop selling Israeli food, entered Tesco in Hodge Hill, Birmingham, threw produce to the floor and shouted at staff and shoppers.

Pictures show a large number of police officers at the scene and stock strewn across the floor of the store.

West Midlands Police said one person was arrested for assaulting its officers during the protest.

Speaking on social media, a customer said: "I was just in the Tesco in Hodge Hill, scanning my items and I heard chanting.

"Then a group of Asian men holding Palestinian flags came walking in and starting to push products over and getting aggressive with staff and shoppers.

"Police officers tried to stop them but I ran out."

About 100 people had gathered outside the store to demonstrate, calling on Tesco to stop all trade with Israeli agricultural companies.

A spokesman for West Midlands Police said: "Our officers dealt with a protest at Tesco Hodge Hill this morning where some disorder was repoted. One arrested for assaulting police.

"The protest was largely peaceful among the 100 protesters but some began throwing stock inside Tesco store. Two escorted from premises."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/11039210/Tesco-store-trashed-by-Gaza-protesters.html
 
Resisting Nazis, He Saw Need for Israel. Now He Is Its Critic.
THE HAGUE — In 1943, Henk Zanoli took a dangerous train trip, slipping past Nazi guards and checkpoints to smuggle a Jewish boy from Amsterdam to the Dutch village of Eemnes. There, the Zanoli family, already under suspicion for resisting the Nazi occupation, hid the boy in their home for two years. The boy would be the only member of his family to survive the Holocaust.

Seventy-one years later, on July 20, an Israeli airstrike flattened a house in the Gaza Strip, killing six of Mr. Zanoli’s relatives by marriage. His grandniece, a Dutch diplomat, is married to a Palestinian economist, Ismail Ziadah, who lost three brothers, a sister-in-law, a nephew and his father’s first wife in the attack.

On Thursday, Mr. Zanoli, 91, whose father died in a Nazi camp, went to the Israeli Embassy in The Hague and returned a medal he received honoring him as one of the Righteous Among the Nations — non-Jews honored by Israel for saving Jews during the Holocaust. In an anguished letter to the Israeli ambassador to the Netherlands, he described the terrible price his family had paid for opposing Nazi tyranny.

“My sister lost her husband, who was executed in the dunes of The Hague for his involvement in the resistance,” he wrote. “My brother lost his Jewish fiancée who was deported, never to return.”

Hassan al-Zeyada, a Palestinian psychologist in Gaza, whose brother Ismail Ziadah is married to Mr. Zanoli's grandniece.

Sergey Ponomarev for The New York Times

Mr. Zanoli continued, “Against this background, it is particularly shocking and tragic that today, four generations on, our family is faced with the murder of our kin in Gaza. Murder carried out by the State of Israel.”

His act crystallizes the moral debate over Israel’s military air and ground assault in the Gaza Strip, in which about 2,000 people, a majority of them civilians, have been killed. Israel says the strikes are aimed at Hamas militants who fire rockets at Israeli cities and have dug a secret network of tunnels into Israel.

Mr. Zanoli transformed over the decades from a champion to a critic of the Israeli state, mirroring a larger shift in Europe, where anguish over the slaughter of six million European Jews led many to support the founding of Israel in 1948 as a haven for Jews worldwide.

But in the years since Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza during the 1967 war, Europeans have become more critical. Israel blames anti-Semitism, which has grown in Europe with the rise of right-wing politicians. Some European protests against Israeli military action have been marred in recent weeks by open anti-Semitism, blurring the line between criticism of Israeli policy and hate speech against Jews. But many other critics, like Mr. Zanoli, say their objection to Israeli policy is not anti-Jewish but consistent with the humanitarian principles that led them to condemn the Holocaust and support the founding of a Jewish state.

“I gave back my medal because I didn’t agree with what the state of Israel is doing to my family and to the Palestinians on the whole,” Mr. Zanoli said in an interview Friday in his spare but elegant apartment, adding that his decision was a statement “only against the state of Israel, not the Israeli people.”

“Jews were our friends,” said Mr. Zanoli, a retired lawyer who uses a motorized scooter but remains erect and regal, much as he appears in a yellowing 1940s photograph archived at the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem.

Mr. Zanoli said he had never publicly criticized Israel “until I heard that my family was the victim.”

In Gaza, Mr. Zanoli’s in-laws say his gesture is a fitting response to the losses of their family and others who have lost multiple relatives in strikes on homes. Those in-laws include Hassan al-Zeyada, a psychological trauma counselor who is an older brother of Ismail Ziadah. Their mother, Muftiyah, 70, was the oldest family member to die in the bombing.

Like Mr. Zanoli, Dr. Zeyada, 50, who works to treat the many Palestinians in Gaza traumatized by war and displacement, has given much thought to the fact that Israel was founded after the Holocaust, one of history’s greatest collective traumas.

Dr. Zeyada, who transliterates his family name differently from his brother, said Friday that he admired Mr. Zanoli and his family for their struggle in World War II against “discrimination and oppression in general and against the Jews in particular.”

“For them,” he added, “it’s something painful that the people you defended and struggled for turn into aggressors.”

Dr. Zeyada said last month that none of his family members were militants. Israel says that it takes precautions to avoid killing civilians, and that Hamas purposely increases civilian casualties by operating in residential neighborhoods. It has offered no information on whether the Zeyada family home was hit purposely, and if so, what the target was and whether it justified a strike that killed six civilians. The military told the left-leaning Israeli newspaper Haaretz, which first reported Mr. Zanoli’s decision, only that it was investigating “all irregular incidents.”

At Yad Vashem, where a leafy garden commemorates the 25,000 people named Righteous Among the Nations, a spokeswoman said Friday that Mr. Zanoli’s renunciation of the prize was “his decision,” but “we regret it.”

More than 5,000 Dutch have received the honor; only Poles have been honored more.

In 1943, Mr. Zanoli’s father was detained by the Nazis for his work in the Dutch underground resistance movement. Soon after, according to Yad Vashem’s citation, also awarded posthumously to Mr. Zanoli’s mother, Jans, Mr. Zanoli traveled to Amsterdam to get Elchanan Pinto, 11, an Orthodox Jewish boy whose parents and siblings would all die in the death camps.

“Jans Zanoli knew very well the risks involved by then in hiding a Jewish youngster in her home, but felt the moral obligation to do so,” the citation reads. “Elchanan found a warm and loving home with them.”

After the Allied victory in 1945, an uncle of Elchanan’s took him to a Jewish orphanage. In 1951, the citation says, Elchanan immigrated to Israel, where he changed his last name to Hameiri. An Elchanan Hameiri is listed in phone directories as living in Israel, but could not be reached on Friday.

In his letter to the Israeli ambassador, Mr. Zanoli noted that among the bereaved were “the great-great grandchildren of my mother.”

He relinquished the honor “with great sorrow,” he wrote, because keeping an honor from Israel’s government would be “an insult to the memory of my courageous mother” and to his Gaza family.

He added that his family had “strongly supported the Jewish people” in their quest for “a national home,” but that he had gradually come to believe that “the Zionist project” had “a racist element in it in aspiring to build a state exclusively for Jews.”

He referred to the displacement of Palestinians — including members of the Ziadah family — during the war over Israel’s founding as “ethnic cleansing” and said Israel “continues to suppress” and occupy Palestinian areas. Israel still occupies the West Bank; it pulled troops out of Gaza in 2005 but retains control over its seafront, airspace and most of its borders.

Israel says it maintains control to curb Palestinian militants like those with Hamas, which in the past has killed several hundred Israelis in suicide bombings. Palestinians see the continuing conflict as a struggle for self-determination — they use Mr. Zanoli’s word for his anti-Nazi work, resistance — and say Israel is obstructing the establishment of a Palestinian state with policies like settlements in the occupied West Bank.

Mr. Zanoli said he could envision a situation in which he would take the medal back.

“The only way out of the quagmire the Jewish people of Israel have gotten themselves into is by granting all living under the control of the State of Israel the same political rights and social and economic rights and opportunities,” he wrote. “Although this will result in a state no longer exclusively Jewish it will be a state with a level of righteousness on the basis of which I could accept the title of ‘Righteous among the Nations’ you awarded to my mother and me.”

In that event, he concluded, “be sure to contact me or my descendants.”

Correction: August 16, 2014

An earlier version of a photo caption with this article misspelled the last name of the man who saved a Jewish boy in 1943 and returned the award he received from Israel after six relatives of his grandniece’s Palestinian husband were killed in Gaza last month. His name is Henk Zanoli, not Zenoli.


www.nytimes.com/2014/08/16/world/middleeast/henk-zanoli-israel-gaza-holocaust-ziadah.html?referrer=&_r=0
 
Oh, well...sad story really about the man's family. However, why did he agree to get the medal in the first place if he thought the Jewish state was racist?
 
Well, judging by the Newsweek piece, it appears that many European Jews don't think Europe is safe for them anymore. According to The Guardian of all places, their fear is not unfounded.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/07/antisemitism-rise-europe-worst-since-nazis
The funny part, the countries with the most problems are the countries with more muslins, soon or later the Christians will have to leave their own countries and the atheists well ... RIP, but what we call liberals in US are the ones to blame and some countries will be dominated by muslins in about 20-30 years, I can see a max exodus of the Portuguese and their descendants to Portugal and Brazil from France.
 
The funny part, the countries with the most problems are the countries with more muslins, soon or later the Christians will have to leave their own countries and the atheists well ... RIP, but what we call liberals in US are the ones to blame and some countries will be dominated by muslins in about 20-30 years, I can see a max exodus of the Portuguese and their descendants to Portugal and Brazil from France.

:wenger: The racist conspiracy theory promoted by a few right wing nutters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurabia
 


From the river to the sea...there is no shame anymore in calling for the destruction of the State of Israel.

It's not the 1967 "occupation" anymore, nor "the actions of the Israeli regime".

Pure antisemitism, UK 2014.
 
This really has become widespread. There needs to be a zero-tolerance attitude adopted for this kind of disruption to ordinary people's lives. More needs to be done to crush the growing antisemitism, that's for sure. I'll be the first to confront these people if they show up here. There'd be world war 3 if they tried to take my trolley of pink-looking boxes off me.
 


From the river to the sea...there is no shame anymore in calling for the destruction of the State of Israel.

It's not the 1967 "occupation" anymore, nor "the actions of the Israeli regime".

Pure antisemitism, UK 2014.


The "From the river to the sea" chant is a poor choice and used more because it rhymes and makes for a good chant, I'd reckon, as opposed to "calling for the destruction of the State of Israel". I don't see a protest against the actions of the IDF as anti-semitism and I think you're being melodramatic.
 
The "From the river to the sea" chant is a poor choice and used more because it rhymes and makes for a good chant, I'd reckon, as opposed to "calling for the destruction of the State of Israel". I don't see a protest against the actions of the IDF as anti-semitism and I think you're being melodramatic.

That chant is blatant antisemitism and is incitement against the people of Israel. Liberals are experts at diminishing truth and burying their heads in the sand.
 
The "From the river to the sea" chant is a poor choice and used more because it rhymes and makes for a good chant, I'd reckon, as opposed to "calling for the destruction of the State of Israel". I don't see a protest against the actions of the IDF as anti-semitism and I think you're being melodramatic.

From the river to the sea has one meaning only. Don't fool yourself, the whole BDS campaign has one-state solution written all over it. The apartheid and Nazi Germany analogies only serve the ultimate purpose of seeing out the Jewish state.
 
You need to understand what inspired many of those actions. It's actually quite easy to point to "dominion theology" for example, a heretical belief in establishing God's Millennial Kingdom through political (among other things) action, in the formation of a protestant state after the reformation. It can be easily demonstrated that this theological position is a heresy.

The simple fact of the matter that I want you to concede is that the teachings of the religions are what really counts. If we accept that, we move the discussion away from comparing and contrasting bad men (or perhaps sincere but misguided) from different religions.

You clearly do not see the major irony of the argument you are putting forth. You believe that all of the bad done in the name of Christianity is because they are either inherently bad men or because they are simply misguided, as opposed to anything in the scriptures. I've seen that defence before.....A religion beginning with I, I believe. Perhaps you've heard of it?

One of the major advantages of living in this age compared to living in the past is the dissemination of knowledge. We can read history (of Christianity or Islam), from multiple competing sources if we so please and we can read the scriptures ourselves (without the monopoly of Priests or Imams.) The problem with these religions, the similarity in many ways of their histories, is not a coincidence.

As nimic has pointed out, you defence is along the lines of the no true scotsman fallacy and uses an incredibly simple (and wrong) justification for all of the things done in the name of Christianity or by Christians to each other and to others over the past 2000 years. It ignores that even today, there are many hundreds of millions of Christians who do not agree with your interpretation of the religion, some of them rather more exclusionary than the beliefs you purport to hold.

You have outlined the religious basis to your beliefs regarding this conflict and the interjection (or continuation) of religion is one of the things that makes this conflict so dangerous. Whether it is the Islamic zealots that believe Jerusalem needs to be liberated, the Jewish zealots that believe God gave them that land and that Judea and Samaria needs to be reclaimed or the Christian zealots who....also believe the man in the sky gave the Jews the land.

Perhaps best to leave it there, we're derailing the thread over a silly argument.
 
You clearly do not see the major irony of the argument you are putting forth. You believe that all of the bad done in the name of Christianity is because they are either inherently bad men or because they are simply misguided, as opposed to anything in the scriptures. I've seen that defence before.....A religion beginning with I, I believe. Perhaps you've heard of it?

One of the major advantages of living in this age compared to living in the past is the dissemination of knowledge. We can read history (of Christianity or Islam), from multiple competing sources if we so please and we can read the scriptures ourselves (without the monopoly of Priests or Imams.) The problem with these religions, the similarity in many ways of their histories, is not a coincidence.

As nimic has pointed out, you defence is along the lines of the no true scotsman fallacy and uses an incredibly simple (and wrong) justification for all of the things done in the name of Christianity or by Christians to each other and to others over the past 2000 years. It ignores that even today, there are many hundreds of millions of Christians who do not agree with your interpretation of the religion, some of them rather more exclusionary than the beliefs you purport to hold.

You have outlined the religious basis to your beliefs regarding this conflict and the interjection (or continuation) of religion is one of the things that makes this conflict so dangerous. Whether it is the Islamic zealots that believe Jerusalem needs to be liberated, the Jewish zealots that believe God gave them that land and that Judea and Samaria needs to be reclaimed or the Christian zealots who....also believe the man in the sky gave the Jews the land.

Perhaps best to leave it there, we're derailing the thread over a silly argument.

Rather than debating which men did what at what point in history (I don't have a particular desire to defend all of Church history), do you believe Christianity and Islam teach very similar things?
 
I see your method of discussion in this thread follows your method of discussion in the religion thread.

I have outlined my views on the above, consistently. You have chosen to ignore it and instead claim the actions of Christians over 2 millennia have nothing to do with their books.

As I said, I have no more interest in discussing theological issues and the nuances of the Bible vs the Quran in a thread about Israel and Palestine (especially as we have long moved on from the original point about anti-semitism in Christianity).
 
Oh, well...sad story really about the man's family. However, why did he agree to get the medal in the first place if he thought the Jewish state was racist?

It says that he initially supported the foundation of the state, I assume that not only did he develop these views gradually (no doubt due to his inherent anti-semitism and the migration of Moroccans to the Netherlands) but that he received his medal before he developed these views.

Incidentally, I've always hated the name Henk.
 
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I see your method of discussion in this thread follows your method of discussion in the religion thread.

I have outlined my views on the above, consistently. You have chosen to ignore it and instead claim the actions of Christians over 2 millennia have nothing to do with their books.

As I said, I have no more interest in discussing theological issues and the nuances of the Bible vs the Quran in a thread about Israel and Palestine (especially as we have long moved on from the original point about anti-semitism in Christianity).

You'll find that people have a tendency to move to side issues when they cannot deal with the central issue. The fact I don't change the subject of the debate to match their demands is not a criticism of my method. I am comparing the behaviour of Muslims with the example of their Prophet and his teachings and the actions of Christians with the example of Christ and his teachings.
 
So the fact we've both moved onto this side issue says what about the both of us then?

I've said I'm not engaging in this any further. If you want to have the last word, be my guest.
 
It says that he initially supported the foundation of the state, I assume that not only did he develop these views gradually (no doubt due to his inherent anti-semitism and the migration of Moroccans to the Netherlands) but that he received his medal before he developed these views.

Incidentally, I've always hated the name Henk.

I assume he developed these views pretty fast, as it appears that he received the medal only three years ago.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/.premium-1.610682

The attempt at sarcasm was really poor btw ;)
 
During Operation "Protective Edge", news leaks website WikiLeaks exposes secret documents which were passed between American diplomats in the 1980's. These documents allegedly show that Israel was interested in enabling Hamas activity in its beginning, intending to weaken the Palestine Liberation Organization and ending the first Intifada.

"Many in the West Bank believe that Israel actively supports Hamas, in its effort to split the Palestinian nation and weaken the Intifada", one of the secret leaked documents, from September 23, 1988 reads. "Shop owners in Jerusalem and Nablus claim that while PLO members are secretly distributing leaflets for fear of the Israeli security forces, Hamas distributes its leaflets openly".

"Moreover", the American government wrote on the document, "In spite of the many arrests, only a small number of Hamas leaders have been arrested. We believe that not only does Israel turn a blind eye on Hamas activity, but even supports it".

"When the Intifada began official sources in Israel said that Hamas "serves as a useful counter-force for the secular organizations loyal to PLO", the revealed documents claim. A number of PLO activists even claimed that Israel used Hamas for this purpose.

Another claim that arises from the leak is that Israel sees in the Palestinian economy another way to rule Gaza. "Senior sources in Israel have approved a number of times to American embassy sources that they are planning to keep the economy in Gaza as low as possible, while always attempting to prevent a humanitarian crisis".

http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news...ikileaks-israel-actively-supported-hamas-6980

Wouldn't be surprised if this was true.
 
As poor as it was, it actually wasn't aimed at you as you've not expressed these views on this thread :)

That link doesn't tell me anything btw, I'm not a Haaretz subscriber.

Henk got his medal in 2011. I'm not an Ha'aretz subscriber either. I cancelled my subscription with the post-Zionist cnuts back in October 2000.
 
During Operation "Protective Edge", news leaks website WikiLeaks exposes secret documents which were passed between American diplomats in the 1980's. These documents allegedly show that Israel was interested in enabling Hamas activity in its beginning, intending to weaken the Palestine Liberation Organization and ending the first Intifada.

"Many in the West Bank believe that Israel actively supports Hamas, in its effort to split the Palestinian nation and weaken the Intifada", one of the secret leaked documents, from September 23, 1988 reads. "Shop owners in Jerusalem and Nablus claim that while PLO members are secretly distributing leaflets for fear of the Israeli security forces, Hamas distributes its leaflets openly".

"Moreover", the American government wrote on the document, "In spite of the many arrests, only a small number of Hamas leaders have been arrested. We believe that not only does Israel turn a blind eye on Hamas activity, but even supports it".

"When the Intifada began official sources in Israel said that Hamas "serves as a useful counter-force for the secular organizations loyal to PLO", the revealed documents claim. A number of PLO activists even claimed that Israel used Hamas for this purpose.

Another claim that arises from the leak is that Israel sees in the Palestinian economy another way to rule Gaza. "Senior sources in Israel have approved a number of times to American embassy sources that they are planning to keep the economy in Gaza as low as possible, while always attempting to prevent a humanitarian crisis".

http://www.jerusalemonline.com/news...ikileaks-israel-actively-supported-hamas-6980

Wouldn't be surprised if this was true.

Feck me, that Julian bloke really nailed them Israelis with these revelations.
 
Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor's bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile's trajectory back to an "enormous, stupid mistake" made 30 years ago.

"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.

Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas. Sheikh Yassin continues to inspire militants today; during the recent war in Gaza, Hamas fighters confronted Israeli troops with "Yassins," primitive rocket-propelled grenades named in honor of the cleric.


http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847
 
Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor's bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile's trajectory back to an "enormous, stupid mistake" made 30 years ago.

"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.

Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas. Sheikh Yassin continues to inspire militants today; during the recent war in Gaza, Hamas fighters confronted Israeli troops with "Yassins," primitive rocket-propelled grenades named in honor of the cleric.


http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847

I'm not clever enough to dissect this, but when someone feels the need to bring in 'crippled, half-blind' it pretty well renders everything else they have to say a bag of shite.
 
A somewhat more sensible approach from the Salafist brigade.



Perhaps more sensible but no less sinister, unfortunately.

If Christians were saying that we shouldn't fight as a minority or weaker power, but should prepare ourselves for holy war in quiet until we are stronger than the enemies of God, sensible is not the word that would be used to describe us.
 
It's more sensible than Hamas' strategy, that's for sure. The last bit is obviously never going to happen.
 
that idea is used to justify apartheid and expulsion. What else would you do with people who are going to kill you the second they have the capabilities? Its only safe when people like this dont exist around you.
If you really believe that the majority of Muslims follow this doctrine, its easy to argue for any kind of atrocity. It labels the whole population as combatants/partisans/terrorists so its allowed to fight them. If you really believe that, even genocide on people who arent willing to leave your country becomes eerily reasonable.

But in my books, a fanatic kuwaity Wahhabi cleric doesnt have any legitimization to speak for the people in Palestine.
 
So the Jews are the enemies of Allah? Sensible words indeed. Not very original or surprising either. What these gentlemen are suggesting is following the teaching of their religion.

And this was a Palestinian Authority minister:

 
I have absolutely no doubt that anti-Semitism is deeply rooted in Islam. Muslim countries usually discriminate people who follow other ideologies (even their own sectarian branches) fairly strong.

Still I dont think that Israel wouldnt be in any danger with a robust two-state solution and a significant Muslim minority. In the end palestins are just humans who - on average - follow the same basic instincts. If a new child is born it just wants the same as any other living being. Avoid pain. Avoid suffering. Find pleasure, survive and prosper.
 
The Palestinian leadership, including that percieved in the West as "moderate", never accepted Israel's existence here. Any agreement would be used as a platform for further future demands. They're very religious about it as is evident from the clips.

You don't have to convince me that there is absolutely no difference between Jewish and Muslim boys. It's what they are led to believe in that makes a difference.
 
shall I start quoting the charming Mr. Bennett, the minister for the economic affairs, religious affairs and affairs related to Jerusalem? Just to clarify: Netanjahu needs "HaBajit haJehudi" to hold a majority in the Knesset. So Mr. Bennett has real power. Political scientists would call him a "veto-player". If he is serious about it and willing to use his political capital he can veto any major idea of this government.
Out of my head in 2013 he said something like "the two-state solution is a dead-end. Israel belongs to Jewish people. Giving away any land to Palestinians would be a terrible mistake."
If you dont want to apply double standards and follow your own logic, you have to agree, that the current Israeli leadership wont accept an independent Palestinian state. Any kind of negotiation process would be only used for further demands for more land. Jewish settlers are very religious about it as its evident, listening to Mr. Bennet´s comments, who is their representative.
 
Boys, boys, boys. Just ask yourself the question: what is the endgame for both sides? And whose endgame do you want to support?
 
shall I start quoting the charming Mr. Bennett, the minister for the economic affairs, religious affairs and affairs related to Jerusalem? Just to clarify: Netanjahu needs "HaBajit haJehudi" to hold a majority in the Knesset. So Mr. Bennett has real power. Political scientists would call him a "veto-player". If he is serious about it and willing to use his political capital he can veto any major idea of this government.
Out of my head in 2013 he said something like "the two-state solution is a dead-end. Israel belongs to Jewish people. Giving away any land to Palestinians would be a terrible mistake."
If you dont want to apply double standards and follow your own logic, you have to agree, that the current Israeli leadership wont accept an independent Palestinian state. Any kind of negotiation process would be only used for further demands for more land. Jewish settlers are very religious about it as its evident, listening to Mr. Bennet´s comments, who is their representative.

Political scientists wouldn't call him that because he could easily be replaced in the coalition by Labour if there was a realistic chance for a peace agreement. Jewish settlers, with theie parliamentary representatives in the opposition, were forcefully evacuated from their homes in 2005. Are you drawing parallels between a right-wing minority party in a democratic system with the admission of the Palestinian dictator that the Oslo "peace agreement" was never going to be fulfilled?
 
This really has become widespread. There needs to be a zero-tolerance attitude adopted for this kind of disruption to ordinary people's lives. More needs to be done to crush the growing antisemitism, that's for sure. I'll be the first to confront these people if they show up here. There'd be world war 3 if they tried to take my trolley of pink-looking boxes off me.

What? The irony of that statement when you are mitgating the bombing of innocent people is surreal.