Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

NoPace said:
It's better than the status quo; They can't protect and defend their territorial integrity now!

Look at the settlement map. If the Palestinians had taken the offers made 15 years ago, they'd be in a better spot than if they made a deal now. They keep turning down bad offers and then they get even worse. It's horrific strategy that wouldn't be possible without a quasi-messianic belief in some future where "the resistance" leads to the Palestinians getting most of all of their demands.

The majority of Israelis are part Mizrahi, meaning their parents, grandparents or other ancestors lived in the Middle East. They experienced a massive loss of property and their rights in these countries. They're not getting anything back, apart from maybe a monetary sum as part of a comprehensive peace deal. The same is true for the Palestinians claiming a right to return after being thrown out of their homes in 1948.

The chance to build a state where the Palestinians can be safe should be their first priority, especially considering how unstable and horrific the treatments of Palestinians has been by pretty much everyone (Jordan, Egypt, Israel). It's the same strategy pursued by the PLO in 1970 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan). It didn't work then and it doesn't work now. I realize it's difficult to essentially accept defeat and unfair treatment and start building from a worse off position than you'd always assumed you'd have, but surely it's time to do so by now?
Click to expand...

I'm a pragmatist at heart so I understand where you're coming from, but in a hypothetical situation where the Palestinians renounced violence and came to the table, anything less than a totally sovereign state would be internationally condemned, and in a world where Israel wasn't balls deep into the US, Israel would be sanctioned for illegal occupation. Hypothetical, I know.

In the real world though, Palestine should take what it gets and work from there. The end goal should be a totally sovereign Palestine state. Sovereign in all aspects (defense, borders, economic, etc). May take some years to get there realistically.

Thanks for The Atlantic article. Interesting how Clinton's stance on Israel has shifted to the right, although the cynic in me thinks she is courting more support for a potential presidential race.
 
adexkola said:
I'm a pragmatist at heart so I understand where you're coming from, but in a hypothetical situation where the Palestinians renounced violence and came to the table, anything less than a totally sovereign state would be internationally condemned, and in a world where Israel wasn't balls deep into the US, Israel would be sanctioned for illegal occupation. Hypothetical, I know.

In the real world though, Palestine should take what it gets and work from there. The end goal should be a totally sovereign Palestine state. Sovereign in all aspects (defense, borders, economic, etc). May take some years to get there realistically.

Thanks for The Atlantic article. Interesting how Clinton's stance on Israel has shifted to the right, although the cynic in me thinks she is courting more support for a potential presidential race.
Click to expand...

Agreed, although I think the sanctions would be unfair, personally. It's unreasonable for Israel to give up security control immediately, unless the U.S itself would ensure demilitarization, and that seems unrealistic.

I'm not sure Clinton has shifted. She was working for Obama, remember, and he's from the left-wing of the Democratic party on foreign policy, and she's from the right. If she hadn't supported the Iraq war, she'd have never lost to him in the first place.
 
holyland red said:
There is no spring anymore in the Arab World, is there?

There are early signs of ISIS spring in Europe though I hear. Mental.
Click to expand...
I know, it was just used as an example. And I haven't seen any "ISIS" spring here, or a sign. Unless you count a one off trojan horse thing we had in birmingham as one, which I think was isolated.
 
The Mitcher said:
I know, it was just used as an example. And I haven't seen any "ISIS" spring here, or a sign. Unless you count a one off trojan horse thing we had in birmingham as one, which I think was isolated.
Click to expand...


Pro-ISIS Demonstrators Call for “Death to Jews” in the Netherlands

http://www.newsweek.com/pro-isis-demonstrators-call-death-jews-hague-262064

Jewish human rights group the Simon Wiesenthal Center has expressed its shock that protests in support of Islamic terrorist group ISIS have gone undeterred by Dutch authorities in the Hague. Two public rallies, expressing support for ISIS have been held this month, with chants advocating the murder of “dirty Jews from the sewers” heard at both.

isis-protest-hague.jpg
 
holyland red said:
Pro-ISIS Demonstrators Call for “Death to Jews” in the Netherlands

http://www.newsweek.com/pro-isis-demonstrators-call-death-jews-hague-262064

Jewish human rights group the Simon Wiesenthal Center has expressed its shock that protests in support of Islamic terrorist group ISIS have gone undeterred by Dutch authorities in the Hague. Two public rallies, expressing support for ISIS have been held this month, with chants advocating the murder of “dirty Jews from the sewers” heard at both.

isis-protest-hague.jpg
Click to expand...
The netherlands is not europe.
 
Herman Van Rompuy said:
Why are you denying what he said? The Netherlands is a part of the EU.

This news doesn't surprise me at all. Radical Islamic groups exist in Europe. We have our very own here in England.
Click to expand...
I did not deny nor confirm it, he said europe is going to have and has signs of an isis spring, yet gives his evidence as a small group in the netherlands and calls it europe. The netherlands is not europe, and yes we have radical islamic groups EVERYWHERE. I don't live under a rock, mate. We also happen to have radical christian and jewish groups, you yourself have said some very fundamentalist things in this section of the caf.
 
holyland red said:
Pro-ISIS Demonstrators Call for “Death to Jews” in the Netherlands

http://www.newsweek.com/pro-isis-demonstrators-call-death-jews-hague-262064

Jewish human rights group the Simon Wiesenthal Center has expressed its shock that protests in support of Islamic terrorist group ISIS have gone undeterred by Dutch authorities in the Hague. Two public rallies, expressing support for ISIS have been held this month, with chants advocating the murder of “dirty Jews from the sewers” heard at both.

isis-protest-hague.jpg
Click to expand...


Is this real ? Needs to be shut down if it is. And by that I mean more than just banning the Al-Qaeda flags.
 
The Mitcher said:
I did not deny nor confirm it, he said europe is going to have and has signs of an isis spring, yet gives his evidence as a small group in the netherlands and calls it europe. The netherlands is not europe, and yes we have radical islamic groups EVERYWHERE. I don't live under a rock, mate. We also happen to have radical christian and jewish groups, you yourself have said some very fundamentalist things in this section of the caf.
Click to expand...

:lol:

We can all read what was said. If it makes you feel better to think of me as the equivalent of ISIS and their supporters, then go ahead. Those Jesus freaks. Always threatening everyone with the love of Christ. Disgusting behaviour.
 
Herman Van Rompuy said:
:lol:

We can all read what was said. If it makes you feel better to think of me as the equivalent of ISIS and their supporters, then go ahead. Those Jesus freaks. Always threatening everyone with the love of Christ. Disgusting behaviour.
Click to expand...
Let's not pretend your mob is better than anyone else's. They preach some of the most vile shite known to man and it's heavily influenced by your book of fairy tales.

I lived in the Bible belt USA and in Christian dominated areas in the middle east. I've seen it and lived it.

Now, quite rightly you'll say that's a minority. Every religion has bad apples.

Don't make it out like yours is clear of this fault.
 
Herman Van Rompuy said:
That's demonstrably false, though. Israel is the only democracy in that part of the world and it was the Jewish people who made a barren land into a fruitful one.
Click to expand...
Yeah they're doing a great job of it.

Those diets for the Palestinians, creation of an open air prison, precision killings and systematic extermination of an entire people is really flying the flag for how well they've done.

I'd hate to see them doing a poor job of it.
 
penalty snot said:
Let's not pretend your mob is better than anyone else's. They preach some of the most vile shite known to man and it's heavily influenced by your book of fairy tales.

I lived in the Bible belt USA and in Christian dominated areas in the middle east. I've seen it and lived it.

Now, quite rightly you'll say that's a minority. Every religion has bad apples.

Don't make it out like yours is clear of this fault.
Click to expand...

Actually, I am not a big fan of the political nature of the American Christian right and I think that those who belong to the Westboro Baptist Church are completely off the rails, but as much as I'd distance myself from them, I wouldn't say they were the equivalent of radical Islamic groups such as ISIS. Just a completely different scale.
 
penalty snot said:
Yeah they're doing a great job of it.

Those diets for the Palestinians, creation of an open air prison, precision killings and systematic extermination of an entire people is really flying the flag for how well they've done.

I'd hate to see them doing a poor job of it.
Click to expand...

Systematic extermination of an entire people? No, that would be what ISIS is doing, not what Israel is doing in Gaza. See, this is the kind of propaganda that bores me to tears, along with you trying to treat Biblical Christianity in the same way as Islam. Both come from your ignorance, however.
 
Herman Van Rompuy said:
Systematic extermination of an entire people? No, that would be what ISIS is doing, not what Israel is doing in Gaza. See, this is the kind of propaganda that bores me to tears, along with you trying to treat Biblical Christianity in the same way as Islam. Both come from your ignorance, however.
Click to expand...
Ignorance: ignoring logic and critical thinking to worship a sky daddy that sent himself to Earth to kill himself so that you'd be saved from a sin you didn't want - this is your conviction.

I'm absolutely delighted with my mindset.

You, however, are a compete joke. A typing parody of what is, gladly, a dying breed within the UK.

But before you bore me and everyone else to death with your mind numbing Christian ramblings and Jesus and Gandalf etc...

holyland red said:
Pro-ISIS Demonstrators Call for “Death to Jews” in the Netherlands

http://www.newsweek.com/pro-isis-demonstrators-call-death-jews-hague-262064

Jewish human rights group the Simon Wiesenthal Center has expressed its shock that protests in support of Islamic terrorist group ISIS have gone undeterred by Dutch authorities in the Hague. Two public rallies, expressing support for ISIS have been held this month, with chants advocating the murder of “dirty Jews from the sewers” heard at both.

isis-protest-hague.jpg
Click to expand...

This is shocking and shouldn't have any place in the world.

Here in Abu Dhabi I've conversed with a few Israelis over their recent experiences with anti-semitic treatment and fortunately they've not felt any of that here.
 
penalty snot said:
Ignorance: ignoring logic and critical thinking to worship a sky daddy that sent himself to Earth to kill himself so that you'd be saved from a sin you didn't want - this is your conviction.

I'm absolutely delighted with my mindset.

You, however, are a compete joke. A typing parody of what is, gladly, a dying breed within the UK.

But before you bore me and everyone else to death with your mind numbing Christian ramblings and Jesus and Gandalf etc...
Click to expand...

You find Jesus and Gandalf boring?

Well, at least you didn't try to appear tolerant and nailed your colours to the mast without much prompting.
 
Herman Van Rompuy said:
You find Jesus and Gandalf boring?

Well, at least you didn't try to appear tolerant and nailed your colours to the mast without much prompting.
Click to expand...

As far as fictional characters go, I've read many better.

Yes, nailed right to the mast.

I'm for reason, logic and critical thinking.

You are for delusion, confirmation bias and willful ignorance.

If you want to take this up any further, PM me or lets move to the Religion thread.

I'll leave it up to you how this carries on.
 
Well, I suppose these aren't Europe either...

Could Syria’s Islamist fighters hit Europe?

Norway's security police announced on Thursday that the country was facing an imminent terror threat. “The PST [Norway's Police Security Service] recently received information that individuals affiliated with an extreme Islamist group in Syria may have the intention of carrying out a terrorist action in Norway,” a statement posted to the PST's Web site reads, adding that the attack would most likely be "carried out shortly – probably in a few days."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...24/could-syrias-islamist-fighters-hit-europe/


French suspect in Brussels Jewish museum attack spent year in Syria

Mehdi Nemmouche arrested in Marseille in connection with the killing of two Israeli tourists and a French volunteer

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/01/french-suspect-brussels-jewish-museum-attack-syria


Toulouse gunman Mohamed Merah

Mohamed Merah, the man believed to be the gunman on a scooter who killed seven people in south-western France, was killed in an armed siege after police surrounded his block of flats in Toulouse.


A 23-year-old French citizen of Algerian origin, he had long been known to the French authorities as a petty criminal but latterly his links to Islamist extremism drew attention.


The man who reportedly told police negotiators he was a member of al-Qaeda had recently made visits to Pakistan and Afghanistan, where he was found in the Taliban heartland of Kandahar.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-17456541

German jihadists on ISIS terror mission

More and more Germans are fighting as part of ISIS in Iraq. Their participation carries little significance militarily, but the German authorities are on alert. Will the radicalized fighters become a threat for the West?

http://www.dw.de/german-jihadists-on-isis-terror-mission/a-17710907

0,,16012724_403,00.jpg

 
Last edited:
penalty snot said:
Ignorance: ignoring logic and critical thinking to worship a sky daddy that sent himself to Earth to kill himself so that you'd be saved from a sin you didn't want - this is your conviction.

I'm absolutely delighted with my mindset.

You, however, are a compete joke. A typing parody of what is, gladly, a dying breed within the UK.

But before you bore me and everyone else to death with your mind numbing Christian ramblings and Jesus and Gandalf etc...



This is shocking and shouldn't have any place in the world.

Here in Abu Dhabi I've conversed with a few Israelis over their recent experiences with anti-semitic treatment and fortunately they've not felt any of that here.
Click to expand...

Great stuff....perhaps European Jews could immigrate to the UAE. They'd do a lot better there than exterminating populations in Israel (never mind the hike in real estate prices here).

exodusnw.jpg
 
holyland red said:
Great stuff....perhaps European Jews could immigrate to the UAE. They'd do a lot better there than exterminating populations in Israel (never mind the hike in real estate prices here).

exodusnw.jpg
Click to expand...
That's sad. Once Palestine is cleared out, they can head over there and setup easily I'm sure.

Have you ever been to the UAE? If you're ever in town, let me know. I'll show you around. Maybe even visit the Man City store for laughs.
 
penalty snot said:
That's sad. Once Palestine is cleared out, they can head over there and setup easily I'm sure.

Have you ever been to the UAE? If you're ever in town, let me know. I'll show you around. Maybe even visit the Man City store for laughs.
Click to expand...

Once Palestine is cleared out they'll have no reason not to come and settle here.
 
Well, obviously all Jewish people in Holland Germany, France and Belgian are now under threat and should leave immediately because of the millions of ant-Semites in both countries.


...errrrrr... well maybe not. Thankfully, with the exception of the extremely rare cases highlighted by holyand red in this thread, all 4 countries are amongst the safest countries to live, for anybody whatever background, in the whole wide World. Furthermore, 99,99% of the populations in all those 4 countries are absolutely disgusted by the actions of this tiny minority against the Jewish people and will strongly condemn it. All 4 countries are also taking action to prosecute the offenders and severely punish them.

...just for you to be able to make a balanced opinion like.
 
Herman Van Rompuy said:
:lol:

We can all read what was said. If it makes you feel better to think of me as the equivalent of ISIS and their supporters, then go ahead. Those Jesus freaks. Always threatening everyone with the love of Christ. Disgusting behaviour.
Click to expand...

:lol:
 
Herman Van Rompuy said:
Actually, I am not a big fan of the political nature of the American Christian right and I think that those who belong to the Westboro Baptist Church are completely off the rails, but as much as I'd distance myself from them, I wouldn't say they were the equivalent of radical Islamic groups such as ISIS. Just a completely different scale.
Click to expand...
Astounding that they are even compared.
 
Rams said:
Well, obviously all Jewish people in Holland Germany, France and Belgian are now under threat and should leave immediately because of the millions of ant-Semites in both countries.


...errrrrr... well maybe not. Thankfully, with the exception of the extremely rare cases highlighted by holyand red in this thread, all 4 countries are amongst the safest countries to live, for anybody whatever background, in the whole wide World. Furthermore, 99,99% of the populations in all those 4 countries are absolutely disgusted by the actions of this tiny minority against the Jewish people and will strongly condemn it. All 4 countries are also taking action to prosecute the offenders and severely punish them.

...just for you to be able to make a balanced opinion like.
Click to expand...

Well, judging by the Newsweek piece, it appears that many European Jews don't think Europe is safe for them anymore. According to The Guardian of all places, their fear is not unfounded.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/07/antisemitism-rise-europe-worst-since-nazis
 
holyland red said:
Well, judging by the Newsweek piece, it appears that many European Jews don't think Europe is safe for them anymore. According to The Guardian of all places, their fear is not unfounded.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/aug/07/antisemitism-rise-europe-worst-since-nazis
Click to expand...

However shocking these incidents are, they thankfully remain very rare incidents committed by the tiniest of minorities. That does not make them any least disturbing, especially considering that these incidents happened in countries that witnessed the holocaust.

The Newsweek headline is completely sensationalist and misleading. Anti-Semitism is still very rare in Western Europe thank God.
 
Last edited:
In fairness anti-everything is rising across Europe. Imagine it has something to do with the recession bringing all the pricks out of the woodwork. There has been a rise in attacks against visible minorities in the UK for example:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fe...slim-hate-crime-rising-20147512135922796.html

Of course you will always have those idiots who can't differentiate between what Israel does and your average jewish person as well those dicks who committed the Lee Rigby murder and the some woman who wears a veil.
 
Y2A said:
Astounding that they are even compared.
Click to expand...
They aren't being compared. Perhaps you should read the entire conversation.

The point was that he is quick to wag his finger at other faiths but fails to see the horrible things his own faith is responsible for.

Worst thing in the world, when one religion calls out another for being "evil" when they are just as bad as each other.
 
holyland red said:
It's not necessarily your typical knobs blaming minorities for stagnant economy. We're talking about a poisonous mix of good old-fashioned antisemitism with growing Muslim populations in Europe with radical offshoots.
Click to expand...

Guess my main point is those are knobs, whether they are Muslim or not. The recent rising in innocent kids being killed in Palestine has clearly riled a few people up as well

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ris-attack-pro-Palestinian-demonstrators.html

If the authorities were to ignore the attacks on Jews by Muslims then that would be a strong worry as well.
 
Last edited:
holyland red said:
Spain
http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.607560

Italy
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.609046

It's not necessarily your typical knobs blaming minorities for stagnant economy. We're talking about a poisonous mix of good old-fashioned antisemitism with growing Muslim populations in Europe with radical offshoots.
Click to expand...

Any kind of anti-Semitism is totally unacceptable. I think (hope) we all agree on that so there isn't much to debate about really. There's is an unacceptable increase in anti-Semitism in Western Europe, which is extremely disturbing and it needs to be tackled with priority. However, it is also still very very rare and should not be taken out of context.
I also don't think the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe does not have a lot of relevance to the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, so I would also suggest discussing the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe in another thread.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Guess my main point is those are knobs, whether they are Muslim or not. The recent rising in innocent kids being killed in Palestine has clearly riled a few people up as well

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ris-attack-pro-Palestinian-demonstrators.html

If the authorities were to ignore the attacks on Jews by Muslims then that would be a strong worry as well.
Click to expand...

There is no question the recent events in the ME contributed to the exposure antisemitism in Europe is getting. However, if you check the ample evidence provided here you'll find that it mostly predates July 2014.

As for the Jewish defense gangs in Paris, I believe they've been outlawed.
 
Rams said:
Any kind of anti-Semitism is totally unacceptable. I think (hope) we all agree on that so there isn't much to debate about really. There's is an unacceptable increase in anti-Semitism in Western Europe, which is extremely disturbing and it needs to be tackled with priority. However, it is also still very very rare and should not be taken out of context..
Click to expand...

Antisemitism taken out of context? What's the context, Rams?

Rams said:
I also don't think the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe does not have a lot of relevance to the Israeli - Palestinian conflict, so I would also suggest discussing the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe in another thread.
Click to expand...

Although antisemitic sentiments erupted during recent anti-Israeli protests I agree that European antisemitism deserves its own thread. Still, I find it highly relevant to the topic we've discussed here because the evident threat to European Jews is a clear example why the need for a Jewish sovereign state is not only an historic justice but also an essential lesson from recent history.
 
holyland red said:
Antisemitism taken out of context? What's the context, Rams?



Although antisemitic sentiments erupted during recent anti-Israeli protests I agree that European antisemitism deserves its own thread. Still, I find it highly relevant to the topic we've discussed here because the evident threat to European Jews is a clear example why the need for a Jewish sovereign state is not only an historic justice but also an essential lesson from recent history.
Click to expand...

If jews are in danger in Europe, wouldn't you say that they are better off emigrating to US than Israel with respect to their safety? Especially those that are not religiously inclined at all.
 
holyland red said:
Antisemitism taken out of context? What's the context, Rams?



Although antisemitic sentiments erupted during recent anti-Israeli protests I agree that European antisemitism deserves its own thread. Still, I find it highly relevant to the topic we've discussed here because the evident threat to European Jews is a clear example why the need for a Jewish sovereign state is not only an historic justice but also an essential lesson from recent history.
Click to expand...

With ‘context’ I meant the amount of anti-Semitism occurring in Western Europe and the threat towards the Jewish communities. For example, you can’t even tell the average Jewish person apart from the rest of the population in Western Europe. It’s not as if the average Jewish person wears a star of David on his sleeve, or even a Keppel. So to state that Jewish people in Western Europe are under threat is completely ridiculous. They are no more under threat than any other minority. Certainly in the Netherlands you are far more likely to suffer abuse or worse as a gay person than as a Jewish person.
Objectively thinking I don’t see much relevance of this topic with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

It terms of my personal opinion I agree that there is a need for a sovereign Jewish state considering the historic injustice & persecution towards the Jews.
 
crappycraperson said:
If jews are in danger in Europe, wouldn't you say that they are better off emigrating to US than Israel with respect to their safety? Especially those that are not religiously inclined at all.
Click to expand...

They still would, yes. I'd personally feel safer in the US than here. However, A Jewish Israel is a refuge for all Jews, at any time, under any circumstances. If antisemitism is so rife in Europe 70 years after WW2 then anything is possible in this respect.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.