Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Stop talking absolute bollocks. Large numbers of Jews, including prominent ones, are consistently critical of Israeli atrocities.

Absolutely nailed on you're an anti-Semite trying to rationalise your bigotry by associating all Jews with Israeli crimes. You can't even contain yourself.

Don't think it helps if you call him an anti-semite based on that quote. I know for a fact that ordinary Muslims are continually called to be apologise for terrorist attacks when many have already denounced it. It just comes down to the fact that ordinary Muslims who criticise the terrorist organisations are shouted out by the pricks who are for them in the media. The folks criticising Muslims here don't suddenly become Islamaphobic.

I think in Andy_Cole's case he probably hasn't noticed any Jewish folk who have criticised Israel, it again doesn't mean he is an anti-semite.
 
Stop talking absolute bollocks. Large numbers of Jews, including prominent ones, are consistently critical of Israeli atrocities.

Absolutely nailed on you're an anti-Semite trying to rationalise your bigotry by associating all Jews with Israeli crimes. You can't even contain yourself.

Surely we can differentiate between an anti-semite and someone who is critical of Israeli policy choices.
 
Don't think it helps if you call him an anti-semite based on that quote. I know for a fact that ordinary Muslims are continually called to be apologise for terrorist attacks when many have already denounced it. It just comes down to the fact that ordinary Muslims who criticise the terrorist organisations are shouted out by the pricks who are for them in the media. The folks criticising Muslims here don't suddenly become Islamaphobic.

I think in Andy_Cole's case he probably hasn't noticed any Jewish folk who have criticised Israel, it again doesn't mean he is an anti-semite.

It's extremely good evidence of it, that's good enough for me to make a judgement.

Reverse it, and imagine someone saying "it really disturbs me that the entire Muslim world is supporting ISIS to the maximum, even as they're massacring Christians". Are you telling me I should give that the benefit of the doubt, and assume that person didn't have something against Muslims to begin with? Would you?

Surely we can differentiate between an anti-semite and someone who is critical of Israeli policy choices.

What are you on about? He's not criticising Israeli policy, he's apparently 'really bothered' by 'the Jewish world' for supporting Israeli atrocities 'to the maximum'.

My point is that Jews all over the world are criticising Israeli policy, and it's very easy to find them.
 
Stop talking absolute bollocks. Large numbers of Jews, including prominent ones, are consistently critical of Israeli atrocities.

Absolutely nailed on you're an anti-Semite trying to rationalise your bigotry by associating all Jews with Israeli crimes. You can't even contain yourself.

I don't associate all Jews with Israeli crimes. But whenever I have a conversation with a Jewish person about this topic they always justify the reasons for why the 'crimes' committed are okay. (Human shields, Britain/ America do it etc.)
 
It's extremely good evidence of it, that's good enough for me to make a judgement.

Reverse it, and imagine someone saying "it really disturbs me that the entire Muslim world is supporting ISIS to the maximum, even as they're massacring Christians". Are you telling me I should give that the benefit of the doubt? Would you?



What are you on about? He's not criticising Israeli policy, he's apparently 'really bothered' by 'the Jewish world' for supporting Israeli atrocities 'to the maximum'.

My point is that Jews all over the world are criticising Israeli policy, and it's very easy to find them.

You're taking words out my mouth. Completely changed what I have said.
 
http://www.btselem.org/press_release/20140801_a_dali_building_bombing

Most lethal strike on a single residential building in Gaza in many years, and probably ever

According to information received by B'Tselem, at approximately 7:30 A.M on the morning of 29 July 2014, the Israeli Air Force bombed a four-story apartment building in downtown Khan Yunis. The building collapsed, burying its occupants. Thirty-five people were killed and 27 injured (see below for the names of the fatalities).

The building was owned by a man by the name of Karem a-Dali and it was rented out to five families, totaling roughly 50 individuals. At the time of the airstrike a few of the families were hosting relatives who had fled homes located in areas considered more dangerous. To the best of B'Tselem’s knowledge, no advance warning was given before the building was bombed. The building was completely demolished and nearby homes were badly damaged. Rescue teams worked up to the morning of 30 July 2014. They retrieved the bodies of 35 people and extricated 27 people who had been injured, including some seriously injured.

The reason for the bombing is not known to B’Tselem and no official authority has bothered to offer an explanation. One of the tenants in the building was Wadah Abu ‘Amer, a senior figure in the political leadership of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP). He lived in the building with his family. Abu ‘Amer was killed together with his wife, their five children, and his two brothers. The rest of the people killed in the bombing belong to four other nuclear families that lived in the building. A woman and a girl who lived in nearby buildings were also killed.

B'Tselem will continue to investigate the incident. Yet even at this early juncture, it can be stated that the bombing of the building was unlawful. There can be no justification for the deaths of so many civilians, including 18 minors and eight women. Israel repeatedly claims that it has no intention of harming civilians. However, after more than three weeks of lethal bombardments by Israel in the Gaza Strip which have killed hundreds of civilians and wiped out dozens of families, this claim has become meaningless


 
It's extremely good evidence of it, that's good enough for me to make a judgement.

Reverse it, and imagine someone saying "it really disturbs me that the entire Muslim world is supporting ISIS to the maximum, even as they're massacring Christians". Are you telling me I should give that the benefit of the doubt, and assume that person didn't have something against Muslims to begin with? Would you?

I don't think it is, as many top figures have stated that the Muslim world needs to do more. It's more of a guilt of generalisation than racism in my view.

Also the ISIS/Israel comparison doesn't work at all. Andy_Cole is clearly criticising Israel's policy and feels that the Jewish world should be doing more, whether he is right or not is debatable, it doesn't make him an anti-semite for having that view.
 
Don't think it helps if you call him an anti-semite based on that quote. I know for a fact that ordinary Muslims are continually called to be apologise for terrorist attacks when many have already denounced it. It just comes down to the fact that ordinary Muslims who criticise the terrorist organisations are shouted out by the pricks who are for them in the media. The folks criticising Muslims here don't suddenly become Islamaphobic.

I think in Andy_Cole's case he probably hasn't noticed any Jewish folk who have criticised Israel, it again doesn't mean he is an anti-semite.

Thanks mate. You have explained exactly what I meant. I do have a handful of Jewish friends, and they all have the attitude which I explained above (which annoys me). Didn't mean anyone to think that I meant ALL Jewish people had the same attitude.

Not happy that suddenly I'm called an anti-semite...
 
I don't associate all Jews with Israeli crimes. But whenever I have a conversation with a Jewish person about this topic they always justify the reasons for why the 'crimes' committed are okay. (Human shields, Britain/ America do it etc.)

Some Jews you had a conversation with does not equal 'the Jewish world'. Plenty of Jews are condemning Israeli crimes, in the media, by their presence at demonstrations, etc.

I don't think it is, as many top figures have stated that the Muslim world needs to do more. It's more of a guilt of generalisation than racism in my view.

Also the ISIS/Israel comparison doesn't work at all. Andy_Cole is clearly criticising Israel's policy and feels that the Jewish world should be doing more, whether he is right or not is debatable, it doesn't make him an anti-semite for having that view.

That's not what he said, so I couldn't possibly have been calling him anti-Semitic for saying it. He can speak for himself too.
 
Some Jews you had a conversation with does not equal 'the Jewish world'. Plenty of Jews are condemning Israeli crimes, in the media, by their presence at demonstrations, etc.



That's not what he said, so I couldn't possibly have been calling him anti-Semitic for saying it. He can speak for himself too.


You're right. I didn't realise I said 'Jewish World'. I apologise for that. Not actually what I meant. More so the Jewish people I have spoken to about the affair, plus the ones I have seen in the media, plus I have not seen much publicly of Jewish people criticising Israel policy.
 
I don't think it is, as many top figures have stated that the Muslim world needs to do more. It's more of a guilt of generalisation than racism in my view.

Also the ISIS/Israel comparison doesn't work at all. Andy_Cole is clearly criticising Israel's policy and feels that the Jewish world should be doing more, whether he is right or not is debatable, it doesn't make him an anti-semite for having that view.

Yeh I would like to see more of the 'Jewish world' coming out to attack Israel policy but I haven't seen any of it. (If I am wrong please point me in the correct direction).
 
I fully acknowledge there are many variables that influence the behaviour of people. And I am sure that anti-Israeli propaganda plays a large part in forming the Palestinian schema, which in turn leads to a life time of animosity towards Israelis. Therefore the question is, how do you reverse this thought process? or stop it from forming in future Palestinian generations.
My argument is that the current course of action only acts to reinforce what the child has already been taught.

That's true for both sides. The eruption of violence will see an increase in extremism and racist/national sentiments. A long-term view should focus on education and stopping incitement.
 
That's not what he said, so I couldn't possibly have been calling him anti-Semitic for saying it. He can speak for himself too.

Maybe it's all down to misinterpretation, I just don't like the term anti-semite banded about trivially (least in my view).
 
Yeh I would like to see more of the 'Jewish world' coming out to attack Israel policy but I haven't seen any of it. (If I am wrong please point me in the correct direction).

I find that hard to believe, but all I can say is pay more attention to left-wing voices and you'll hear plenty of Jewish anti-Zionists.
 
After independence will demilitarization still be enforced, or will Palestine be afforded complete sovereignty within it's borders? How would sea and air access be worked out?

Yeah, demilitarization would be long-lasting I think, sort of like Japan after WW2. Maybe some of the Arab league countries would commit to defending Palestine in a war?

I would think that sea and air access would be full. By the time any of this happened, the West Bank might even have an airport.
 
Maybe it's all down to misinterpretation, I just don't like the term anti-semite banded about trivially (least in my view).

Its sort of like people calling others racists. Such terms are used as weapons to vilify the other side, irrespective of whether or not they being legitimately applied.
 
I wanted to post something about Allied bombings of Germany, and vice versa, during the 2nd World War, where civilian populations (as well as legitimate military targets), were deliberately bombed to try to break the spirit of the populace, often with the opposite effect.

I found it very sad seeing Palestinians on the News reports saying that they used to be against Hamas but now support them, despite the current crisis being as a direct result of the actions of Hamas. Why can't they see that if Hamas stopped lobbing missiles into Israel they probably wouldn't be in this mess and meanwhile the legitimate Palestinian and Israeli governments might have been locked in talks to find a political solution.

A military solution is clearly not the answer in this instance, but the Israeli government can not sit idly by whist missiles are landing in Israel on a daily basis.
 
Israeli propaganda makes anything israel do okay. Did Hamas also pay off that Israel soldier who was bragging about killing children on Twitter?

I'm sure something similar properganda methods were used in Nazi Germany whenever horrific reports came out there too...

Why anything showing terrorists launching rockets next to schools, hospitals, forcing children near them when they do the famous blind shot which is aimed somewhere at the moon, waiting a response from Israeli troops to retaliate and hopefully kill all the children to show the world how bad the Zionists are. So showing the true about the terrorists tactics which are completely ignored by the media is Israel's propaganda but soon they see the corpses of children
they show to the world the screaming father which by great miracle he wasn't hurt at all, again the Israel's missiles must have some technology to kill children and not the parents.
"
 
Yeh I would like to see more of the 'Jewish world' coming out to attack Israel policy but I haven't seen any of it. (If I am wrong please point me in the correct direction).

It tends to work in reverse of what you would think.

Israel's parliament is about 1/3rd left wing (Labor party, parts of Yesh Atid and Hatnuah, Meretz and the Arab parties) and they, newspapers like Haaretz and their voters/readers are very critical of Israeli policy.

This specific conflict has been heavily supported by pretty much the whole country. Normally this doesn't happen to this extent, but the sheer volume of rockets being fired and the fear of attacks on Kibbutzes and other attacks from tunnels (Gilad Shalit was kidnapped/captured by Hamas via one of these tunnels in 2006, which in Israel is a massive deal, as they have an obsessive belief in "no man left behind') seems to have convinced even most of the left that hitting back at rocket sites and destroying the tunnels needs to happen.

Outside of Israel, the major institutions of the Jewish diaspora and most Conservative or Orthodox Jews tends to be pretty blindly supportive of Israeli policy, whatever it is, for a variety of reasons: The view that more of the world is anti-Israel than pro-Israel (see U.N votes), a belief that since Israel is a democracy we should just support whatever their elected leaders do, and a fear of being critical while not actually sacrificing anything ourselves, as we're not sending our sons to fight in the army or dealing with rocket fires.

However, and here it's best to start reading Peter Beinart or others if you're interested, there is a growing movement of left-wing/liberal Zionist Jews who do not believe Netanyahu and the right are doing enough to create the long-term conditions for peace.

Israel is moving to the right politically, it seems. Frustration over the lack of security and fear sends people in that direction.

Personally, as a lefty Jew, I think Netanyahu's plan to weaken Abbas is cynical and counter-productive. Once the West Bank and Gaza split leadership, Israel had a great chance to bolster the West Bank economically and show some of the positive outcomes that peace could bring to the Palestinians. The settlements do not create the violence, but they are a terrible idea that makes peace less likely.

With regards to the current war, I think there are times when a rocket is fired from civilian areas that you can't hit back right away, even though that gives Hamas the knowledge that they can then fire with greater impunity from there. It's still not worth killing the civilians there. So, while it's largely Hamas' fault, that doesn't absolve Israel completely. It's not that manichean a question. In a few other cases, Israel has fired on targets they shouldn't have and should apologize and fix whatever military errors led to that.

I do think that asking random Muslims in Britain or America to apologize for or condemn Islamic terrorism is basically nuts, and the same is true for Israel. People have a right to free speech. As long as they aren't inciting hatred, leave them alone. That said, Muslims and Jews probably do have a moral duty to support peace and non-violence as much as te
 
Yeah, demilitarization would be long-lasting I think, sort of like Japan after WW2. Maybe some of the Arab league countries would commit to defending Palestine in a war?

I would think that sea and air access would be full. By the time any of this happened, the West Bank might even have an airport.

Not sure that Palestinians would agree to such a state, where they can't protect and defend their territorial integrity.
 
It tends to work in reverse of what you would think.

Israel's parliament is about 1/3rd left wing (Labor party, parts of Yesh Atid and Hatnuah, Meretz and the Arab parties) and they, newspapers like Haaretz and their voters/readers are very critical of Israeli policy.

This specific conflict has been heavily supported by pretty much the whole country. Normally this doesn't happen to this extent, but the sheer volume of rockets being fired and the fear of attacks on Kibbutzes and other attacks from tunnels (Gilad Shalit was kidnapped/captured by Hamas via one of these tunnels in 2006, which in Israel is a massive deal, as they have an obsessive belief in "no man left behind') seems to have convinced even most of the left that hitting back at rocket sites and destroying the tunnels needs to happen.

Outside of Israel, the major institutions of the Jewish diaspora and most Conservative or Orthodox Jews tends to be pretty blindly supportive of Israeli policy, whatever it is, for a variety of reasons: The view that more of the world is anti-Israel than pro-Israel (see U.N votes), a belief that since Israel is a democracy we should just support whatever their elected leaders do, and a fear of being critical while not actually sacrificing anything ourselves, as we're not sending our sons to fight in the army or dealing with rocket fires.

However, and here it's best to start reading Peter Beinart or others if you're interested, there is a growing movement of left-wing/liberal Zionist Jews who do not believe Netanyahu and the right are doing enough to create the long-term conditions for peace.

Israel is moving to the right politically, it seems. Frustration over the lack of security and fear sends people in that direction.

Personally, as a lefty Jew, I think Netanyahu's plan to weaken Abbas is cynical and counter-productive. Once the West Bank and Gaza split leadership, Israel had a great chance to bolster the West Bank economically and show some of the positive outcomes that peace could bring to the Palestinians. The settlements do not create the violence, but they are a terrible idea that makes peace less likely.

With regards to the current war, I think there are times when a rocket is fired from civilian areas that you can't hit back right away, even though that gives Hamas the knowledge that they can then fire with greater impunity from there. It's still not worth killing the civilians there. So, while it's largely Hamas' fault, that doesn't absolve Israel completely. It's not that manichean a question. In a few other cases, Israel has fired on targets they shouldn't have and should apologize and fix whatever military errors led to that.

I do think that asking random Muslims in Britain or America to apologize for or condemn Islamic terrorism is basically nuts, and the same is true for Israel. People have a right to free speech. As long as they aren't inciting hatred, leave them alone. That said, Muslims and Jews probably do have a moral duty to support peace and non-violence as much as te

Great post. Cheers for that.
 
Hamas are bunch of despicable evil religious anti-democratic fanatics. I don't think there can be any debate about it.
 
I wanted to post something about Allied bombings of Germany, and vice versa, during the 2nd World War, where civilian populations (as well as legitimate military targets), were deliberately bombed to try to break the spirit of the populace, often with the opposite effect.

I found it very sad seeing Palestinians on the News reports saying that they used to be against Hamas but now support them, despite the current crisis being as a direct result of the actions of Hamas. Why can't they see that if Hamas stopped lobbing missiles into Israel they probably wouldn't be in this mess and meanwhile the legitimate Palestinian and Israeli governments might have been locked in talks to find a political solution.

A military solution is clearly not the answer in this instance, but the Israeli government can not sit idly by whist missiles are landing in Israel on a daily basis.

In the case of WWII the amount of civilian & non civilian casualties caused made deliberate bombings of civilian proportionate.
In the case of Gaza, since the recent fighting 3 civilians have been killed compared to, for example, the 100's of women and children in Gaza. How can that be considered proportionate?
 
In the case of WWII the amount of civilian & non civilian casualties caused made deliberate bombings of civilian proportionate.
In the case of Gaza, since the recent fighting 3 civilians have been killed compared to, for example, the 100's of women and children in Gaza. How can that be considered proportionate?

You have clearly missed the point of my post.

It mentions nothing of proportionality, not that that justifies bombing innocent people. They bombed Coventry so we'll bomb Dresden!

Are you suggesting that they target an exact amount of Palestinian civilians in some sort of tit for tat bombing raid? That would certainly be morally indefensible, maybe you have been watching The Untouchables or something? Do you know what the point/object of the bombardment of Gaza even is? It has nothing to do with murdering innocent individuals, not that I am defending that fact that many innocent individuals have been killed.

The bombing of Coventry and Dresden, however, was exactly that, bomb the populace in order to break the spirit. Not that it was an effective policy.
 
You have clearly missed the point of my post.

It mentions nothing of proportionality, not that that justifies bombing innocent people. They bombed Coventry so we'll bomb Dresden!

Are you suggesting that they target an exact amount of Palestinian civilians in some sort of tit for tat bombing raid? That would certainly be morally indefensible, maybe you have been watching The Untouchables or something? Do you know what the point/object of the bombardment of Gaza even is? It has nothing to do with murdering innocent individuals, not that I am defending that fact that many innocent individuals have been killed.

The bombing of Coventry and Dresden, however, was exactly that, bomb the populace in order to break the spirit. Not that it was an effective policy.

The threat caused by Hamas (or the Palestinians in general for that matter) to Israel at this moment in time does not warrant the amount of civilian casualties caused in Gaza. I would say that the deliberate bombing of schools or hospitals is disproportionate. The situation in WWII was completely different, the immediate survival of entire nations were at threat.
And we have to consider modern technology, Israel have the ability to precisely target the tiniest of targets. That technology didn't exist in WWII.
Besides, 2 wrongs don't make a right. For example, the fact that the British killed, terrorised and murdered in the 19th & 20th century does not make it right for another nation to do so now.
 
The threat caused by Hamas (or the Palestinians in general for that matter) to Israel at this moment in time does not warrant the amount of civilian casualties caused in Gaza. I would say that the deliberate bombing of schools or hospitals is disproportionate. The situation in WWII was completely different, the immediate survival of entire nations were at threat.
And we have to consider modern technology, Israel have the ability to precisely target the tiniest of targets. That technology didn't exist in WWII.
Besides, 2 wrongs don't make a right. For example, the fact that the British killed, terrorised and murdered in the 19th & 20th century does not make it right for another nation to do so now.

Did you see that video? It was posted in the 50K thread and I think in this one. A building was bombed with pinpoint accuracy, first a warning strike and then it was destroyed.

I am afraid I can't tell you or explain how it happened that schools/hospitals/UN safe buildings have been bombed though, and I can't condone such actions, but perhaps @holyland red can shed some light on that?
 
Did you see that video? It was posted in the 50K thread and I think in this one. A building was bombed with pinpoint accuracy, first a warning strike and then it was destroyed.

I am afraid I can't tell you or explain how it happened that schools/hospitals/UN safe buildings have been bombed though, and I can't condone such actions, but perhaps @holyland red can shed some light on that?
Roughly in this order:

"They were terrorists"
"Israel had the right to defend itself against children"
"The tunnels"
"It's our land"
"Arabs are bad"
"They started it"
"Let me link you to something to show you how bad other people are"
"You're an anti semite"

There, I've just saved you a lot of time and frustration with secularland red.
 
Roughly in this order:

"They were terrorists"
"Israel had the right to defend itself against children"
"The tunnels"
"It's our land"
"Arabs are bad"
"They started it"
"Let me link you to something to show you how bad other people are"
"You're an anti semite"

There, I've just saved you a lot of time and frustration with secularland red.

Oh get over yourself, what a pathetic post!
 
Did you see that video? It was posted in the 50K thread and I think in this one. A building was bombed with pinpoint accuracy, first a warning strike and then it was destroyed.

I am afraid I can't tell you or explain how it happened that schools/hospitals/UN safe buildings have been bombed though, and I can't condone such actions, but perhaps @holyland red can shed some light on that?

Its clear the Israelis knew what they were shooting at, but did so anyway as a means to show Hamas they would go after their launch sites, irrespective of where they are.
 
There is stronger evidence that we'd be better off if you'd never come back to Palestine

TBh it would be a hell of a lot better place if countries wouldn't stop using it as a battle ground for the last 7000 years, so in theory if none of you lot lived there it'd be be a WHOLE lot better. Because it ain't either of your land to destroy or to live in, we're all immigrants, but especially in the Levant. The Palestinians are both related to the Jews, the christians and the muslims in crusader and ancient times, as are the jews. I personally don't see it as black and white as most people, nor do I assign blame more to one side or the other. Humanity fecked up basically, and I wonder when both sides will finally learn that chucking rockets at each other is going to lead to nothing but death and destruction. Its already bad enough with the whole arab spring and ISIS problems.
 
Its clear the Israelis knew what they were shooting at, but did so anyway as a means to show Hamas they would go after their launch sites, irrespective of where they are.

This.

Geneva Convention/Fourth Geneva Convention
Article 28: The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.

 
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TBh it would be a hell of a lot better place if countries wouldn't stop using it as a battle ground for the last 7000 years, so in theory if none of you lot lived there it'd be be a WHOLE lot better. Because it ain't either of your land to destroy or to live in, we're all immigrants, but especially in the Levant. The Palestinians are both related to the Jews, the christians and the muslims in crusader and ancient times, as are the jews. I personally don't see it as black and white as most people, nor do I assign blame more to one side or the other. Humanity fecked up basically, and I wonder when both sides will finally learn that chucking rockets at each other is going to lead to nothing but death and destruction. Its already bad enough with the whole arab spring and ISIS problems.

There is no spring anymore in the Arab World, is there?

There are early signs of ISIS spring in Europe though I hear. Mental.
 
Rockets fall for first time since ceasefire began:
Reports are coming in that an Israeli drone has fired a rocket into Gaza sea.
In the south of the Gaza Strip, Israeli gunship navy opened the fire at the sea shore of Rafah.
No injuries have been reported.
UPDATE [10GMT] : The Israeli army has told Al Jazeera they are looking into the incident.
 
It tends to work in reverse of what you would think.

Israel's parliament is about 1/3rd left wing (Labor party, parts of Yesh Atid and Hatnuah, Meretz and the Arab parties) and they, newspapers like Haaretz and their voters/readers are very critical of Israeli policy.

This specific conflict has been heavily supported by pretty much the whole country. Normally this doesn't happen to this extent, but the sheer volume of rockets being fired and the fear of attacks on Kibbutzes and other attacks from tunnels (Gilad Shalit was kidnapped/captured by Hamas via one of these tunnels in 2006, which in Israel is a massive deal, as they have an obsessive belief in "no man left behind') seems to have convinced even most of the left that hitting back at rocket sites and destroying the tunnels needs to happen.

Outside of Israel, the major institutions of the Jewish diaspora and most Conservative or Orthodox Jews tends to be pretty blindly supportive of Israeli policy, whatever it is, for a variety of reasons: The view that more of the world is anti-Israel than pro-Israel (see U.N votes), a belief that since Israel is a democracy we should just support whatever their elected leaders do, and a fear of being critical while not actually sacrificing anything ourselves, as we're not sending our sons to fight in the army or dealing with rocket fires.

However, and here it's best to start reading Peter Beinart or others if you're interested, there is a growing movement of left-wing/liberal Zionist Jews who do not believe Netanyahu and the right are doing enough to create the long-term conditions for peace.

Israel is moving to the right politically, it seems. Frustration over the lack of security and fear sends people in that direction.

Personally, as a lefty Jew, I think Netanyahu's plan to weaken Abbas is cynical and counter-productive. Once the West Bank and Gaza split leadership, Israel had a great chance to bolster the West Bank economically and show some of the positive outcomes that peace could bring to the Palestinians. The settlements do not create the violence, but they are a terrible idea that makes peace less likely.

With regards to the current war, I think there are times when a rocket is fired from civilian areas that you can't hit back right away, even though that gives Hamas the knowledge that they can then fire with greater impunity from there. It's still not worth killing the civilians there. So, while it's largely Hamas' fault, that doesn't absolve Israel completely. It's not that manichean a question. In a few other cases, Israel has fired on targets they shouldn't have and should apologize and fix whatever military errors led to that.

I do think that asking random Muslims in Britain or America to apologize for or condemn Islamic terrorism is basically nuts, and the same is true for Israel. People have a right to free speech. As long as they aren't inciting hatred, leave them alone. That said, Muslims and Jews probably do have a moral duty to support peace and non-violence as much as te

Thank you very much @NoLogo. I really needed to hear that from the other side.
 
Not sure that Palestinians would agree to such a state, where they can't protect and defend their territorial integrity.

It's better than the status quo; They can't protect and defend their territorial integrity now!

Look at the settlement map. If the Palestinians had taken the offers made 15 years ago, they'd be in a better spot than if they made a deal now. They keep turning down bad offers and then they get even worse. It's horrific strategy that wouldn't be possible without a quasi-messianic belief in some future where "the resistance" leads to the Palestinians getting most of all of their demands.

The majority of Israelis are part Mizrahi, meaning their parents, grandparents or other ancestors lived in the Middle East. They experienced a massive loss of property and their rights in these countries. They're not getting anything back, apart from maybe a monetary sum as part of a comprehensive peace deal. The same is true for the Palestinians claiming a right to return after being thrown out of their homes in 1948.

The chance to build a state where the Palestinians can be safe should be their first priority, especially considering how unstable and horrific the treatments of Palestinians has been by pretty much everyone (Jordan, Egypt, Israel). It's the same strategy pursued by the PLO in 1970 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan). It didn't work then and it doesn't work now. I realize it's difficult to essentially accept defeat and unfair treatment and start building from a worse off position than you'd always assumed you'd have, but surely it's time to do so by now?
 
Not sure that Palestinians would agree to such a state, where they can't protect and defend their territorial integrity.

Quoting this again to link to: http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...-to-the-rise-of-isis/375832/?single_page=true

Clinton on how this would work:

"So what I tell people is, yeah, if I were the prime minister of Israel, you’re damn right I would expect to have control over security [on the West Bank], because even if I’m dealing with Abbas, who is 79 years old, and other members of Fatah, who are enjoying a better lifestyle and making money on all kinds of things, that does not protect Israel from the influx of Hamas or cross-border attacks from anywhere else. With Syria and Iraq, it is all one big threat. So Netanyahu could not do this in good conscience. If this were Rabin or Barak in his place—and I’ve talked to Ehud about this—they would have to demand a level of security that would be provided by the [Israel Defense Forces] for a period of time. And in my meetings with them I got Abbas to about six, seven, eight years on continued IDF presence. Now he’s fallen back to three, but he was with me at six, seven, eight. I got Netanyahu to go from forever to 2025. That’s a negotiation, okay? So I know. Dealing with Bibi is not easy, so people get frustrated and they lose sight of what we’re trying to achieve here."