Care to educate us on the Western support for the Young Israel in 1948, that found it easy to build a democracy which assimilating 100,000s of immigrants including the 900,000 Jews expelled from Muslim countries? It's so easy to attribute Israel's success to US money. The Arabs have done exactly that for too long. Saves them the trouble of taking a long look at the mirror.
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
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Care to educate us on the Western support for the Young Israel in 1948, that found it easy to build a democracy which assimilating 100,000s of immigrants including the 900,000 Jews expelled from Muslim countries? It's so easy to attribute Israel's success to US money. The Arabs have done exactly that for too long. Saves them the trouble of taking a long look at the mirror.
nothing to do with either. Wrong choices by their leaders left the Palestinians where they are now. Considering there's no oil in Israel, they'd probably be doing a Syria here if they did win in 1948.
It's the same old argument that was used in South Africa where you swap Muslims for Black people.
Hardly surprising given the close relations between the two apartheid states.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–South_Africa_Agreement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–South_Africa_relations
48 was the original act of theft, they didn't have a choice when the colonial powers were letting you steal their land
Setting the democratic Israeli state up in the first place doesn't count as support? Or indeed the millions of dollars that poured in from private donations? I certainly don't think there was anything easy about assimilating such a huge population, nor indeed about giving them 'sufficient Zionist motivation'. As I said, generally it's my firm belief that the Jewish people as a whole are extraordinarily intellectual, hard working and entrepreneurial. That definitely does not give the right to oppress or expel other races though - in fact it makes it worse.
But go on, if you want to drag everything down to a pointlessly simplistic debate about Jews good, Arabs bad without considering any of the massively significant factors such as external meddling in the Middle East's affairs be my guest. No point arguing with someone who doesn't want to listen and who doesn't have any respect for people born the wrong colour.
I believe the Arabs got a fair deal by the UN in 1947. They could have opted for trying to build a prosperous state for themselves instead of staging genocidal wars against their neighbours who "got it easy" with donations. Excusing the Arabs for all their mistakes is far from showing them respect. They should be held responsible for their choices just like anyone else.
We got a fraction of what is our homeland, backed by what you'd call here international law. We have done a marvelous job since. The Arabs got most of our homeland at roughly the same time, and managed to do feck all since. Still, they have a prosperous neighbour they can blame for all their trouble.
Right. So all the Arabs being killed today are the same as the ones who, in your opinion, were too hard on the Israeli state in the beginning. As long as you can sleep at night.
You're not doing very well with that logic thing. Israel built its young democracy under the most testing conditions, surrounded by enemies sworn to its destruction. The Arabs had it much easier, but ended up picking a different route. What does this have to do with your interpretation of Arabs today and back then? Poor choices by the Arabs back then let to their ongoing plight. In fact, there is a link to the situation now, in which the Palestinians' democratic choice is the elimination of the Jewish state rather than a peaceful co-existence.
You're the guys in the driving seat you could push for a two-state right now but you don't.
No, we can't. You wouldn't hand territory in your back yard to a group of people who have vowed to use that territory as a platform for further demands.
Your homelands Egypt, you are migrants to the land. The peope dont balme Israel for there problems, yiu might have noticed theres a lot of revolutions going on in the neighbourhood
Your nations growth is no more special then South Koreas, Taiwans, Singapore or Chinas
What 'further demands' - it's the sensible solution for Israel too, in 50 years the landscape could look very different.
I am Indian
I absolutely agree that a two-state solution is very.much an Israeli interest too. However, there is no responsible party to which Israel can hand the WB keys. We simply call not have another Gaza in the WB, and by further demand I mean the Jewish nature of Israel within the pre-1967 borders.
I love your food. Not so much your grasp of ME history.
You're right. What you should probably do is, instead of trying to encourage moderatism, engaging in dialogue, and helping the Palestinian people, bomb the feck out of their kids. That'll definitely bring a moderate to power.
I think everybody agrees - let's get on with it.
Nearly every country in the Middle East is ruled by an oppressive dictatorship. Now we face the prospect of some of those dictatorships being replaced by genocidal Islamic theocracies. Yet according to your logic Palestine would be doing just fine if only it weren't for the Jews and creation of Israel. Makes sense.
The entirety of the middle east would be better off were it not for the colonialist carve up of the territory, Israel is one of their turds
Galloway is of a rare breed these days.
I wouldn't say it was a totally fair deal - proportionally, land to population speaking it was in Israel's favour - , but it was the best offer they've ever gotten, as the wars in 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973 led to further gains by Israel.
The Palestinian position reminds me of being pot committed in poker. They turned down a B- or C+ offer in 1948 by the UN to form their own state, and the offers keep getting worse and worse, so whoever is in charge and is able to negotiate a peace by acquiescing to Israel's demands will look weak by accepting a D+ offer. Basically, the narrative needs to change from the Palestinians side from resistance to accepting that Israel exists and is powerful and that reparations for the Nakba will come in money, not in land back, and the most important thing is building a Palestinian state.
It's not quite that simple.
As I understand it, the formula, from Israel's perspective, assuming a continued Likud government in charge with broad support for peace from basically everyone but the far right, would look like this:
Pre-Condition:
- Gaza is no longer governed by Hamas. Gaza and the West Bank are completely demilitarized, with an international force overseeing it. Israel gives significant economic aid (The Mofaz Plan, which has become popular recently in Israel). Hamas is dismantled as a part of this demilitarization.
Once demilitarization occurs, negotiations begin and Israel is not attacked by rockets, suicide bombers or whatever else. They establish the following:
- Palestine becomes a full state. Israel recognizes it fully and the Palestinians recognize Israel fully as a Jewish state, surrendering Right to Return claims as a state.
- Palestinians with a "Right to Return" claim receive reparations from Israel. I would think a 3rd party country or countries would have to be in charge of this.
- Gaza and the West Bank are linked via a narrow swath of land.
- The 4 major settlements near Jerusalem become part of Israel and in exchange, Israel gives up a similar, fairly small territory to Palestine. Some majority-Arab towns are allowed a plebiscite to vote to stay in Israel or become part of Palestine.
- Jerusalem remains mostly Israeli, but the temple mount becomes an Internationally run area and large parts of East Jerusalem become part of Palestine. Legally speaking, in Israel, giving up part of Jerusalem would require a referendum, but this can be amended by the Knesset. Also, any peace deal would realistically need enough support in Israel that the referendum would not be an issue.
Why this won't happen:
-At best, it's hard to see the support for a peace plan not being something like 70-50 in terms of seats in the Knesset (60 from the centre-left (currently getting battered in the polls, but that should go back to normal post-violence), and 10 from the centrist wing of Likud. So, the support would be tight enough that the more contentious issues like East Jerusalem and Settlement issues might fracture what would be, at best, a makeshift coalition.
-Netanyahu is unlikely to turn against the right and move towards the middle for peace, although the same was said of Sharon and he did do that with Gaza.
-But as Gaza shows, even if most Palestinians just want peace, once the groups who want "resistance" like Hamas and Islamic Jihad (and some evidence suggests that Hamas is being outflanked by even more pro-violence groups in Gaza) start throwing rockets or commit other acts of violence against Israelis (settlers or not), Israel will retrench (in Gaza, this led to the blockade after Hamas took control post-civil ) and the negotiations will be derailed.
George Galloway knows nothing of Islam's historical treatment of the Jews and Christians in Islamic states. You need to be a major revisionist to ignore all the massacres and the fact Christians and Jews were always second class citizens in Islamic states. The Islamic persecution of Christians continues to this day in unthinkable numbers. It would be continuing against the Jews, too, if they were numbered among the other minority groups fleeing for their lives across the middle east. This is the reality.
The Palestine he mentions as being wiped off the map simply wasn't what the term has come to mean today. That Palestine was simply a geographical location following the Latinisation of Philistia. It's quite remarkable to listen to his revision of history. I mean, you have to admit that it's naive at best to think that Jewish/Muslim relations were rosey and that the Jews were seeking refuge with their old mates the Muslims. It is a tragedy of European history that the Jews have been persecuted in the way they have and a tragedy that parts of the Church have been involved in that persecution at various times throughout history based on ridiculous views that it was the Jewish people as a collective who had Christ crucified and terrible theology that Jewish people had somehow lost their identity after Christ's crucifixion, but none of this justifies the revision of Muslim/Jewish relations.
The Palestine he mentions as being wiped off the map simply wasn't what the term has come to mean today. That Palestine was simply a geographical location following the Latinisation of Philistia. It's quite remarkable to listen to his revision of history. I mean, you have to admit that it's naive at best to think that Jewish/Muslim relations were rosey and that the Jews were seeking refuge with their old mates the Muslims. It is a tragedy of European history that the Jews have been persecuted in the way they have and a tragedy that parts of the Church have been involved in that persecution at various times throughout history based on ridiculous views that it was the Jewish people as a collective who had Christ crucified and terrible theology that Jewish people had somehow lost their identity after Christ's crucifixion, but none of this justifies the revision of Muslim/Jewish relations.
Israeli propaganda makes anything israel do okay. Did Hamas also pay off that Israel soldier who was bragging about killing children on Twitter?
I'm sure something similar properganda methods were used in Nazi Germany whenever horrific reports came out there too...
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One thing that really bothers me...
When Islamic terrorists have done atrocious things, Muslims all over the world separates themselves from the terrorists, I don't know one Muslim who are not disgusted with them.
But Israel, having been horrendous, are still supported to the maximum by the Jewish world, trying to blame someone else for anything they do.
I know if I was Jewish I would be embarrassed, disgusted by Israel's actions. I would not consider the Israel government as being Jewish...
When Islamic terrorists have done atrocious things, Muslims all over the world separates themselves from the terrorists, I don't know one Muslim who are not disgusted with them.
But Israel, having been horrendous, are still supported to the maximum by the Jewish world, trying to blame someone else for anything they do.
I know if I was Jewish I would be embarrassed, disgusted by Israel's actions. I would not consider the Israel government as being Jewish...
There's strong evidence suggesting that the ME would be a much better place if Islam and Arabs never made their way out of Arabia.
Good summary, considering the political complexities on both sides.
We'd probably disagree because unlike you I see what we call today Jordan as part of Mandatory Palestine, which it was. As for the wars, they were indeed won by Israel. Perhaps not surprisingly, any suggested peace plan involves a territorial solution along the 1948 armistice line. Almost 70 years of conflict, and the only reasonable solution is on the table for everyone to see.
Yeah, the most notable example will be blaming the Mossad for 9/11. Oh wait...
Might win you a kiss and a hug.
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Surely the moment you find joy in the death of another human being, you cease to be truly muslim,(religious) and your "religion" simply becomes a cloak to disguise your mental abnormalities. It is also incredibly naive to demonise children for behaviour learnt through conditioning, blame the conditioner......which unfortunately could be seen to be partly the consequence of Israeli aggression.
Indeed. Time to get on with it.
I don't mind who is truely a Muslim and who isn't. I don't think any particualr religion is any better (or worse) than the other. I also agree that children can not be held responsible for expressing joy at the death of others, as this would obviously be a result of brainwashing adults are responsible for.
Despite the agreement there it appears that we are divided on the cause for these unfortunate consequences. I'd suggest comparisons of incitement on official media outlets and textbook as an indication of how children may be indoctrinated, and what are the prospects for reconciliation in our lifetime.
In Israel's latest military operation in the Gaza Strip, dubbed Operation Protective Edge, many homes were bombed with residents inside, killing several family members together.
The following infographic details members of families killed in 36 incidents where civilian homes were bombed or shelled. In these incidents, 251 people were killed, including 55 women, 114 minors, and 11 people over the age of 60.
The figures are based on B'Tselem's initial investigation. We will continue to investigate the incidents and update the figures accordingly.
http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/201407_families
The following infographic details members of families killed in 36 incidents where civilian homes were bombed or shelled. In these incidents, 251 people were killed, including 55 women, 114 minors, and 11 people over the age of 60.
The figures are based on B'Tselem's initial investigation. We will continue to investigate the incidents and update the figures accordingly.
http://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/201407_families
I fully acknowledge there are many variables that influence the behaviour of people. And I am sure that anti-Israeli propaganda plays a large part in forming the Palestinian schema, which in turn leads to a life time of animosity towards Israelis. Therefore the question is, how do you reverse this thought process? or stop it from forming in future Palestinian generations.
My argument is that the current course of action only acts to reinforce what the child has already been taught.
After independence will demilitarization still be enforced, or will Palestine be afforded complete sovereignty within it's borders? How would sea and air access be worked out?
By Bassem Eid
Hamas needs the Palestinians' deaths in order to claim victory
For more than 26 years, I have dedicated my life to defending human rights. I have seen wars, terror, and abuse. Yet this past month – from the kidnapping and murder of three Jewish boys, throw the kidnapping and murder of Mohammed abu Khdeir, and to the war in Gaza – has been the most politically and emotionally difficult month of my life.
I live in East Jerusalem and I have witnessed the devastation of life in my city. Once again, Route 1 has become the dividing line between East and West. Jews and Arabs are afraid of each other's shadows. Palestinian resident of Jerusalem have attacked the civilian infrastructure in Beit Hanina and Shoafat, causing massive damage to traffic lights, the light rail, and power supplies. I cannot accept this as civil protest – rather, it is pure revenge and retribution. And the co-existence for which I have struggled for my entire life – has been hanged and executed in the public square.
I am in pain.
There can be no doubt that the death and destruction in Gaza is a tsunami. Both peoples are hurting, but each side denies the other's pain, and so the hurt is worse.
And yet, as a Palestinian, I must acknowledge: I am responsible for some of what has happened. As a Palestinian, I cannot deny my responsibility for the death of my own people.
....
Bassem Eid is a human rights activist and a political commentator.
http://www.i24news.tv/en/mobile#content/39587
Stop talking absolute bollocks. Large numbers of Jews, including prominent ones, are consistently critical of Israeli atrocities.
Absolutely nailed on you're an anti-Semite trying to rationalise your bigotry by associating all Jews with Israeli crimes. You can't even contain yourself.