Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Mihajlovic said:
I have the impression that posters like Hellboy and Mozza hate Jews. I might be totally wrong though and Hellboy is a super nice guy who also has Jewish friends.
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That's some serious accusation you are making on people just because they don't agree with you view on this conflict.
 
holyland red said:
BBC and NYT are typically very critical of Israel. There is no doubt that there are hundreds of civilian casualties. I never suggested otherwise. However, it was quite clear from the word go that Hamas was inflating the figures of civilian casualties. I'm glad BBC and NYT take my posts seriously. I'll ask Mr. Regev for a pay raise.
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What about all the other journalists from all the other media from all over the world? I mean, it's not as if they're aren't any of the world's journalists in Gaza to report the facts. I've seen so many reports and film footage from the hospitals of Gaza with so many wounded woman & children almost daily. From the BBC, the NOS, ARD, ZDF, VRT and so on. Plus, a whole mountain more from the written press.
 
Israel, like the US and UK, counts any fighting age male as a legitimate target, whether they are one or not. If your a bloke serving tea to a member of Hamas fighting wing, if you get blown up along with him you'd be a fighter as far as all 3 were concerned

Israel also considers any Hamas member fair game, whether they come from the fighting wing or not. One of there first actions in 2006 was to blow up a swearing in cerimony for some members of Hamas police force, police are civilians, Israel considered them legitimate targets.
 
bleedred said:
That's some serious accusation you are making on people just because they don't agree with you view on this conflict.
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Nah, it's not that serious. Comparing him to cancer and calling him fascist scum (which I don't, because I don't believe insulting is a nice thing to do), that would be serious.
 
Rams said:
What about all the other journalists from all the other media from all over the world? I mean, it's not as if they're aren't any of the world's journalists in Gaza to report the facts. I've seen so many reports and film footage from the hospitals of Gaza with so many wounded woman & children almost daily. From the BBC, the NOS, ARD, ZDF, VRT and so on. Plus, a whole mountain more from the written press.
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What about them? The media doesn't count the dead, does it? It reports quotes from a variety of sources. The terrible suffering of the Palestinian population cannot be denied, and it never has been. It's the arbitrary quantitative estimates of civilian losses that I suggested were dodgy. Now the BBC and NYT come up with similar arguments, backed by UN/health organizations staff admissions, but these are rejected outright by people who can not tolerate anything which doesn't validate their anti-Israeli stance.

How about "hmmm, loss of innocent lives in Gaza is still horrible, but perhaps we were a bit too quick in claiming 83% of the casualties were civilians"? It would just serve to make future rants perhaps more credible.
 
holyland red said:
What about them? The media doesn't count the dead, does it? It reports quotes from a variety of sources. The terrible suffering of the Palestinian population cannot be denied, and it never has been. It's the arbitrary quantitative estimates of civilian losses that I suggested were dodgy. Now the BBC and NYT come up with similar arguments, backed by UN/health organizations staff admissions, but these are rejected outright by people who can not tolerate anything which doesn't validate their anti-Israeli stance.

How about "hmmm, loss of innocent lives in Gaza is still horrible, but perhaps we were a bit too quick in claiming 83% of the casualties were civilians"? It would just serve to make future rants perhaps more credible.
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But it has been glossed over and objectified by you for the last 13 years. This is the first time I've ever read you even acknowledge it. It actually makes me feel a little better that you realise it's happening.
 
Mozza said:
Israel, like the US and UK, counts any fighting age male as a legitimate target, whether they are one or not. If your a bloke serving tea to a member of Hamas fighting wing, if you get blown up along with him you'd be a fighter as far as all 3 were concerned

Israel also considers any Hamas member fair game, whether they come from the fighting wing or not. One of there first actions in 2006 was to blow up a swearing in cerimony for some members of Hamas police force, police are civilians, Israel considered them legitimate targets.
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Israel still hasn't developed weapons that identify the age of the target. The high proportions of young adult males among the casualties suggests that IDF fire is anything but indiscriminate.
 
Dante said:
But it has been glossed over and objectified by you for the last 13 years. This is the first time I've ever read you even acknowledge it. It actually makes me feel a little better that you realise it's happening.
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I never ever denied it.
 
holyland red said:
What about them? The media doesn't count the dead, does it? It reports quotes from a variety of sources. The terrible suffering of the Palestinian population cannot be denied, and it never has been. It's the arbitrary quantitative estimates of civilian losses that I suggested were dodgy. Now the BBC and NYT come up with similar arguments, backed by UN/health organizations staff admissions, but these are rejected outright by people who can not tolerate anything which doesn't validate their anti-Israeli stance.

How about "hmmm, loss of innocent lives in Gaza is still horrible, but perhaps we were a bit too quick in claiming 83% of the casualties were civilians"? It would just serve to make future rants perhaps more credible.
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Where did I ever quote that 83 % of the casualties were civilians? Does it matter what the % is? Surely by purposely & deliberately bombing targets that the Israeli's know are predominately occupied by civilians is totally unjust (especially considering the amount of civilian casualties in Israel itself during the offensive)? And which part of my 'rant' (as you put is) is not credible?
For most outsiders it's difficult to judge who's worse; Hamas or Israel?! They're both a bunch of murdering scum as far as the outside world is concerned.
 
holyland red said:
Israel still hasn't developed weapons that identify the age of the target. The high proportions of young adult males among the casualties suggests that IDF fire is anything but indiscriminate.
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I know it's not indiscriminate, you know exactly who you are killing, Hamas fighter or Kids on a beach.

Men are more likely to venture out in a battlefield to find supplies for their families, thats why there is a higher proprtion of casulties of that demopgraphic
 
VidaRed said:
You should read up on sri lanka and burma then.
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Bullshit and you know it

It is a Sinhali Tamil ethnic problem not a Buddhist Hindu one and you trying to portray it that way is ridiculous

A religion is only as peaceful as the lowest common denominator of people practicing it and I am not writing this to defend any one religion, just setting the record straight on the point you made
 
Mozza said:
I know it's not indiscriminate, you know exactly who you are killing, Hamas fighter or Kids on a beach.

Men are more likely to venture out in a battlefield to find supplies for their families, thats why there is a higher proprtion of casulties of that demopgraphic
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You sound like you believe there's a random, weekly killing-quota set by the IDF.
 
Rams said:
Where did I ever quote that 83 % of the casualties were civilians? Does it matter what the % is? Surely by purposely & deliberately bombing targets that the Israeli's know are predominately occupied by civilians is totally unjust (especially considering the amount of civilian casualties in Israel itself during the offensive)? And which part of my 'rant' (as you put is) is not credible?
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You didn't quote a number, but I'm sure you heard the figures here and elsewhere. Of course the figures matter. The high percentage was supposed to serve a purpose portraying Israel's retaliation as reckless, using indiscriminate shelling of civilians. Civilian casualties lower than those in conflicts involving Western armies would not have served the purpose of demonizing Israel.

Gaza is predominantly populated by civilians. Still, there is nothing Israel could do but return fire when it is being targeted from schools, mosques and hospitals. Thankfully, civilian losses here are low, and as you well know this is not down to the Palestinians' moral standards.

Rams said:
For most outsiders it's difficult to judge who's worse; Hamas or Israel?! They're both a bunch of murdering scum as far as the outside world is concerned.
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Again, the percentages matter, together with brushing aside the fact civilian installations are used by the Palestinians to fire at Israel. They matter because they incite people to think Israel is as bad or even worse than its enemy.
 
Mozza said:
I know it's not indiscriminate, you know exactly who you are killing, Hamas fighter or Kids on a beach.

Men are more likely to venture out in a battlefield to find supplies for their families, thats why there is a higher proprtion of casulties of that demopgraphic
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Far more likely that Hamas sent those kids to the beach, having cameras on standby, and then launched a rocket right next to them. Happened before. No reason to believe they wouldn't do it again.

The percentages and the conclusions are on the BBC website. You are welcome to question them as much as you like. I said before I didn't know the facts here. I just raised some obvious concerns at the gaping holes in the reports by the Palestinian ministry of health.
 
holyland red said:
Far more likely that Hamas sent those kids to the beach, having cameras on standby, and then launched a rocket right next to them. Happened before. No reason to believe they wouldn't do it again.

The percentages and the conclusions are on the BBC website. You are welcome to question them as much as you like. I said before I didn't know the facts here. I just raised some obvious concerns at the gaping holes in the reports by the Palestinian ministry of health.
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Why has there been no images from Hamas of the beach attack?

Israel does everything to obscure truth. Anything to pretend they are the vicitm. All that propaganda however does warp the mind. They've started to believe there own bullshit
 
holyland red said:
You didn't quote a number, but I'm sure you heard the figures here and elsewhere. Of course the figures matter. The high percentage was supposed to serve a purpose portraying Israel's retaliation as reckless, using indiscriminate shelling of civilians. Civilian casualties lower than those in conflicts involving Western armies would not have served the purpose of demonizing Israel.

Gaza is predominantly populated by civilians. Still, there is nothing Israel could do but return fire when it is being targeted from schools, mosques and hospitals. Thankfully, civilian losses here are low, and as you well know this is not down to the Palestinians' moral standards.



Again, the percentages matter, together with brushing aside the fact civilian installations are used by the Palestinians to fire at Israel. They matter because they incite people to think Israel is as bad or even worse than its enemy.
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Israel have been bombing UN shelters, from where no rockets have been fired. And even if there had been rockets fired from those paces, considering the lack of damage done by the rockets it seems to most people outside Israel that the retaliation is highly disproportionate. And there is firm eye witness evidence as well as reports from the UN of hospitals in Gaza being overrun by civilian casualties including very many women & children.
 
Rams said:
Israel have been bombing UN shelters, from where no rockets have been fired. And even if there had been rockets fired from those paces, considering the lack of damage done by the rockets it seems to most people outside Israel that the retaliation is highly disproportionate. And there is firm eye witness evidence as well as reports from the UN of hospitals in Gaza being overrun by civilian casualties including very many women & children.
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There are hundreds of civilian casualties, there is no question about that. I never argued otherwise. However, there is no backing for the claims that Israel is using indiscriminate fire against civilian population.

We're walking in circles here. Rockets kill. I don't have a problem, and neither does international law, with returning fire to fire sources. When the "outside world" demands that Palestinian leaders are tried for double war crimes (Launching rockets from schools and hospitals into populations centers in Israel) Israel may consider its criticism differently. I am not going to pretend I care much for proportionality. I don't know where this daft idea came from. It's a war here. A century long war, and the relatively new tactic of targeting Israeli civilians from populated areas in neighbouring territories does not warrant any proportionality. Instead, it deserve a swift end to the exchanges.
 
It's not about being surprised or not. I'm just providing evidence for the obvious campaign to demonize Israel, a campaign where Islamic fundamentalists and European liberals join forces. This is nothing but shameful on the part of left-wing Westerners, and will come back to bite them in the arse. Sooner rather than later. In the meantime it just discredits what could otherwise be reasonable criticism of Israel. Bottom line, their hatred towards the Jewish state undermines their ability to help the Palestinians.
 
holyland red said:
It's not about being surprised or not. I'm just providing evidence for the obvious campaign to demonize Israel, a campaign where Islamic fundamentalists and European liberals join forces. This is nothing but shameful on the part of left-wing Westerners, and will come back to bite them in the arse. Sooner rather than later. In the meantime it just discredits what could otherwise be reasonable criticism of Israel. Bottom line, their hatred towards the Jewish state undermines their ability to help the Palestinians.
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They are not demonsing Israel, Israels problems are not caused by the Palestinians being media savy, blowing up children is your problem, stealing land is your problem, for all your attemps to paint Isreal as victim your can't white wash your evil.
 
holyland red said:
It's not about being surprised or not. I'm just providing evidence for the obvious campaign to demonize Israel, a campaign where Islamic fundamentalists and European liberals join forces. This is nothing but shameful on the part of left-wing Westerners, and will come back to bite them in the arse. Sooner rather than later. In the meantime it just discredits what could otherwise be reasonable criticism of Israel. Bottom line, their hatred towards the Jewish state undermines their ability to help the Palestinians.
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This has nothing to do with European liberals, it has nothing to do with political persuasion. Nor am I demonising Israel or debating Israel's right to defend themselves. What I am criticising is the deliberate bombing of civilian targets, and the amount of civilian casualties caused by thus, by the Israeli forces. No country should be beyond criticism, whether it's Israel, the US or the UK for that matter.
 
Mozza said:
They are not demonsing Israel, Israels problems are not caused by the Palestinians being media savy, blowing up children is your problem, stealing land is your problem, for all your attemps to paint Isreal as victim your can't white wash your evil.
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Can't steal what is mine. We represented the exact two sides when Palasti Ian's blew up dozens of Israeli civilians on an almost daily basis, so you are the last person on here capable of blaming others for playing the victim card. We live in a prosperous democracy. Palestinians live in the gutter. Both are a result of the respective people's choices.
 
Rams said:
This has nothing to do with European liberals, it has nothing to do with political persuasion. Nor am I demonising Israel or debating Israel's right to defend themselves. What I am criticising is the deliberate bombing of civilian targets, and the amount of civilian casualties caused by thus, by the Israeli forces. No country should be beyond criticism, whether it's Israel, the US or the UK for that matter.
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I agree with the last comment. We'll have to disagree on the deliberate targeting of civilians.
 
holyland red said:
I agree with the last comment. We'll have to disagree on the deliberate targeting of civilians.
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As an example Israel deliberately bombed a UN school, despite Israel being notified by the UN that a UN school was there no least than 17 times, the last time 2 hours before the school was bombed.
 
holyland red said:
Can't steal what is mine. We represented the exact two sides when Palasti Ian's blew up dozens of Israeli civilians on an almost daily basis, so you are the last person on here capable of blaming others for playing the victim card. We live in a prosperous democracy. Palestinians live in the gutter. Both are a result of the respective people's choices.
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The gutter they live in is becuase of Israel, the land you've stolen, the lives you've taken. They are the victims of Israels aggresion, Israels evil
 
holyland red said:
It's not about being surprised or not. I'm just providing evidence for the obvious campaign to demonize Israel, a campaign where Islamic fundamentalists and European liberals join forces. This is nothing but shameful on the part of left-wing Westerners, and will come back to bite them in the arse. Sooner rather than later. In the meantime it just discredits what could otherwise be reasonable criticism of Israel. Bottom line, their hatred towards the Jewish state undermines their ability to help the Palestinians.
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We were told we were terrorist supporters for supporting the ANC and Mandela.

So we aren't always wrong. History has proven the left correct on many political issues.

Just a thought. (Not that I would like to be classified as a liberal-its just a very vague term which you have used to dump all critics of Israel into the one grouping).
 
Mozza said:
Israel, like the US and UK, counts any fighting age male as a legitimate target, whether they are one or not. If your a bloke serving tea to a member of Hamas fighting wing, if you get blown up along with him you'd be a fighter as far as all 3 were concerned

Israel also considers any Hamas member fair game, whether they come from the fighting wing or not. One of there first actions in 2006 was to blow up a swearing in cerimony for some members of Hamas police force, police are civilians, Israel considered them legitimate targets.
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Well they could resolve the problem and wear an uniform and really be a soldier/warrior but since they are terrorists they fight behind women and children, but damn the men in gaza between 20-29 years old have a really bad luck with Israelis soldiers, if I was from UN I would investigate the missels and really any weapon israel are using because I believe is discrimination. Basically targets young adult men and that's wrong.
 
Rams said:
As an example Israel deliberately bombed a UN school, despite Israel being notified by the UN that a UN school was there no least than 17 times, the last time 2 hours before the school was bombed.
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Excellent example. The school was not hit. The hit was outside the school.
 
Mozza said:
The gutter they live in is becuase of Israel, the land you've stolen, the lives you've taken. They are the victims of Israels aggresion, Israels evil
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Arabs and Muslims live in the gutter from Morroco to Bangladesh. Did anyone mention playing the victim?
 
holyland red said:
Excellent example. The school was not hit. The hit was outside the school.
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Dude, in this thread it seems like all you do is defend the indefensible actions of Israel in this conflict?

The numbers do not lie.. (they probably do, but not that much)

Palestinian deaths

  • 1,935 killed, including at least 1,408 civilians
  • 452 children
  • 235 women
Israeli deaths

  • 64 soldiers
  • 2 civilians
  • 1 Thai national in Israel
(Source: OCHA; 0800 GMT on 9 August)
 
holyland red said:
Arabs and Muslims live in the gutter from Morroco to Bangladesh. Did anyone mention playing the victim?
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Arabs and Muslims live in countries with poverty levels no worse than many non muslim nations across the globe, your islamaphobia and racism do show themselves once in a while
 
barros said:
Well they could resolve the problem and wear an uniform and really be a soldier/warrior but since they are terrorists they fight behind women and children, but damn the men in gaza between 20-29 years old have a really bad luck with Israelis soldiers, if I was from UN I would investigate the missels and really any weapon israel are using because I believe is discrimination. Basically targets young adult men and that's wrong.
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Brave barros, bet you'd send your wife & kids out to scrounge for food when the bombs starts falling
 
Mozza said:
Arabs and Muslims live in countries with poverty levels no worse than many non muslim nations across the globe, your islamaphobia and racism do show themselves once in a while
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Poverty and oppression don't care what religion you follow.
 
holyland red said:
Arabs and Muslims live in the gutter from Morroco to Bangladesh. Did anyone mention playing the victim?
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That's a really disgusting thing to say and I hope you are ashamed.

There's no doubting the Jewish people as a whole are more than averagely entrpreneurial, intellectual and hard working, but it's a lot easier to build a peaceful democracy when you are constantly being channeled money and support by rich Western figures and governments, rather than being meddled with and exploited (see Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Syria) to try to profit from the confusion.
 
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