100% correct, along with almost every other country you can think of.
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
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100% correct, along with almost every other country you can think of.
Less than nothing. Any potential deal with the West Bank is going to be harder to achieve than selling sand to the Arabs.
Powerful. Completely agree with him.
Here's an update of stats I saw today.
1967? That's got to be a message!
Good post
Hamas: We will renew attacks as soon as ceasefire over
Roi Kais
Published: 08.06.14, 22:14 / Israel News
Hamas officials said Wednesday that "Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades and al Quds Brigades will renew their attacks as soon as the ceasefire is over on Friday at 8:00am.
Get your scoreboards ready, folks.
Roi Kais
Published: 08.06.14, 22:14 / Israel News
Hamas officials said Wednesday that "Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades and al Quds Brigades will renew their attacks as soon as the ceasefire is over on Friday at 8:00am.
Get your scoreboards ready, folks.
I've read quite a lot of this thread and have read plenty in newspapers and watched plenty of news reports about the current situation in Gaza. I wouldn't claim to be even 10% as clued in as you, or as many of the people commenting on this thread. However, this post is typical of you throughout this thread.
I don't know one person in Ireland who supports or condones Hamas's actions. Hamas are a terrorist organisation whose aim is to wipe out the Jewish people. Nobody wants to see that, well nobody that I know. But your "Get your scoreboards" comment is indicative of every post you make in this thread, as far as I can see. You see it as a chance to get one up on the people criticising Israel. Hamas are attacking us so we are attacking back. If that was simply the case, Israel wouldn't be receiving condemnation from half of the nations of the world and only escaping condemnation from the other half because of the support you have from the USA.
I respect Israel's right to defend herself from Hamas attacks. Like any other nation, you have the right to defend yourselves. However you and @Herman Van Rompuy have said if they fire rockets at us, we have every right to fire rockets back. It's not your fault that you have a phenomenal defence and they don't. You laugh at the suggestion that you would send in troops to disarm Hamas, saying, why would you risk a soldiers life when you can shell them from the comfort of your Iron Dome. Well I'll tell you why, because the civillian casualties in this war are completely unacceptable. You have an army with a wealth of resources. You should be willing to put your troops in danger in an effort to stop a threat. That's what soldiers are for. Why did America send troops into Germany in WW2 when they had the Atomic Bombs at their disposal? Because not everyone in Nazi Germany was a Nazi. Because killing Civillians is not OK. The same as the men, women and children who are being killed in Gaza are not all members of Hamas. Why does any army of any country send in troops when have the world has Nuclear arms? Why not just fire in a Nuke? Because human life is precious.
It is for that reason, Israel's blatant disregard for innocent human life, that you have so many enemies at the moment. You might like to think that everyone is an anti-semite. You might like to think that people just don't like the Jewish state, but it's not that. It's the actions of IDF and the actions of Israel in their encroachment and settlement of Arab land and your treatment of the Palestinian people that has turned people against Israel.
It says a lot when people are almost rooting for Hamas in this conflict. Hamas are absolute scum. But if they are hiding arms or rockets in a school and "using kids as human shields" then that does not give Israel the right to kill those children and blame Hamas for having them there. You use the wealth of resources at your disposal to disarm Hamas with the absolute minimal civilian casualties. You would find if this was the way the IDF went about their business, the international community wouldn't be long about getting behind you.
As for the Palestinians themselves, I know none personally. I have a cousin who spent several years going over and back to the West Bank and Gaza doing humanitarian work. She used to stay for months at a time. She has seen support for Hamas grow among the Palestinian people, year on year. This was not because they wanted to wipe every Jew off the face of the planet. These were not people who held the ideology of Hamas as their own. But Hamas were the only people who were offering to help as Jewish settlements made their lives hell. They have seen their land become settlers land for a couple of generations now and it's easy to see from other conflicts around the world, Northern Ireland for example, that if you poke a group of people enough, they will eventually fight back. Support for Hamas has grown because of Israel, because of settlement and encroachment and separation of Arab land.
I don't think they had them until later when they dropped a couple on Japan.
Several posters have said no one supports Hamas but there are two unacceptable paths here.
One is ongoing rocket attacks on Israel and Israel holding fire because of the civilian casualties.
The second being Israel fires back and kills loads of civilians.
So far no one has come up with a viable third option.
So to me, people who say Israel should hold their fire are supporting Hamas. They might not like them or really want to support them but they are doing so at least indirectly are they not?
One is ongoing rocket attacks on Israel and Israel holding fire because of the civilian casualties.
The second being Israel fires back and kills loads of civilians.
So far no one has come up with a viable third option.
So to me, people who say Israel should hold their fire are supporting Hamas. They might not like them or really want to support them but they are doing so at least indirectly are they not?
I don't think you appreciate what those soldiers mean to Israel, though. Someone here rightly pointed out a few days ago that these are not 'professional soldiers'. Being drafted into the army is not done out of choice here, it's mandatory. The reserve soldiers drafted into operations like the one we've just had aren't volunteers, it's the law. And maybe you can add a certain process that happened in Israeli society in the last few decades. You can call them soldiers, but people will still see them as every day Israelis who are supposed to do their three-year mandatory service and not resume but finally start their lives. They see the reserve soldiers as every day Israelis who tomorrow go back to their work at high tech or whatever.
For you, it's a soldier. And if he has to die so civilians at the other side to live, so be it. We don't see it that way.
Thanks for your long and detailed post, which is very untypical of this thread. The majority of posts here critical of Israel are written by individuals who are not clued in, although they do not have the basic decency to admit it.
My scoreboard comment was aimed at those who copy and paste crap from Facebook, without getting a single neuron involved in the process. To be honset, I'm tired of this "Hamas are bastards" prefix lip service. Hamas is the democratic choice of the Palestinian people, and even though the IDF does its best under the circumstances to minimise civilian casualties, it is still the Palestinian people who can not be spared any blame for their democratic choice. With democracy comes accountability. It's not like Hamas had tried to hide its genocidal approach prior to the 2007 elections. I also have no doubt that no other army in the world would have behaved any differently to the IDF under similar circumstances.
Sending troops to disarm Hamas? Do you think they are a gang of drug dealers. Their army is stronger than Ireland's. How do you "disarm Hamas"? I suggest you check the tactics of Western armies in Iraq, Afghanistan and Serbia before criticizing the IDF which defends its under fire country, unlike US, UK, UN and NATO forces during the three conflicts I mentioned.
Oh, and as for WW2:
Recognize this gentleman?
Not everyone, but too many for anyone's comfort.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/a...ssons-of-history-are-not-taught-26833419.html
The Palestinians see Haifa as a settlement too. Check their textbooks to find reasons why radicalization is rife. The PA official media is filled with antisemitic incitement. They pay imprisoned mass murderers huge salaries from EU aid money. I'm not a huge fan of radical settlers, but you're making life much too easy for yourself blaming Palestinian violence on them and/or Hamas. The Palestinians have never come to terms with Jewish presence in the ME.
We both see this differently then. You conscript men to the army. They are soldiers then for me. If you are involved in a conflict and have an army safely hidden in your Iron Dome but show no consideration for civilian men, women and children on the other side, then it is tantamount to war crime. Again, that's my opinion and I expect you to disagree.
Thanks for your long and detailed post, which is very untypical of this thread. The majority of posts here critical of Israel are written by individuals who are not clued in, although they do not have the basic decency to admit it.
My scoreboard comment was aimed at those who copy and paste crap from Facebook, without getting a single neuron involved in the process. To be honset, I'm tired of this "Hamas are bastards" prefix lip service. Hamas is the democratic choice of the Palestinian people, and even though the IDF does its best under the circumstances to minimise civilian casualties, it is still the Palestinian people who can not be spared any blame for their democratic choice. With democracy comes accountability. It's not like Hamas had tried to hide its genocidal approach prior to the 2007 elections. I also have no doubt that no other army in the world would have behaved any differently to the IDF under similar circumstances.
Sending troops to disarm Hamas? Do you think they are a gang of drug dealers. Their army is stronger than Ireland's. How do you "disarm Hamas"? I suggest you check the tactics of Western armies in Iraq, Afghanistan and Serbia before criticizing the IDF which defends its under fire country, unlike US, UK, UN and NATO forces during the three conflicts I mentioned.
Oh, and as for WW2:
Recognize this gentleman?
Not everyone, but too many for anyone's comfort.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/a...ssons-of-history-are-not-taught-26833419.html
The Palestinians see Haifa as a settlement too. Check their textbooks to find reasons why radicalization is rife. The PA official media is filled with antisemitic incitement. They pay imprisoned mass murderers huge salaries from EU aid money. I'm not a huge fan of radical settlers, but you're making life much too easy for yourself blaming Palestinian violence on them and/or Hamas. The Palestinians have never come to terms with Jewish presence in the ME.
First of all, whether the "Hamas are bad" line is lip service for some people, I would like to clarify that it is not for me. Much of the arab world do not hold ideologies that I have any time for. The racism and sexism in countries under Sharia Law horrifies me to be honest. I am a strong opponent of religion having a ruling influence over peoples lives and especially so when it means women are second class citizens and partisan education is given to children. So, no, it, is not lip service for me. I have no time for their ideologies or their actions. They are trying to shell and kill Israeli civilians. This is not something I want. Hamas are every bit as culpable for the current conflict as the IDF. But it is Palestinian children, not Israeli children that are dying, which is why it's going to come across as though we are all against you.
And you do make a good point that they are the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people. But I stand by my opinion that if you push a group of people far enough they will turn to someone who offers them a strong defence. For many Palestinians, life is a living hell. Their land is been taken, they are being forced to live in caged houses. They are abused and assaulted when they leave their houses and there is no one to offer them any protection. Hamas played to this suffering and offered them an alternative to this hell. It was the same in Northern Ireland when Sinn Fein/IRA became the voice of the Nationalist and republican people. Do you think the people in Northern Ireland wanted to see ordinary people in Manchester, Brighton, London, Omagh die in bomb attacks? No, the normal person on Norther Ireland would have been horrified by that. But at home they were being terrorised, they were being denied civil rights and Sinn Fein/IRA offered to fight for them. They had been pushed far enough that their only voice was Sinn Fein/IRA. So support grew. Young boys who saw their friends, fathers, uncles, brothers killed in cold blood signed up to the IRA. In the same way young Palestinian boys who see their friends and family being killed by rockets are going to grow up with such an intense hatred of Israel that they will turn to Hamas. It happens in every conflict all over the world. In the way Israel are approaching this war, they are not eradicating Hamas, but strengthening it and I fear they are doing this purposely. The more Palestinians that affiliate themselves with Hamas the less international support they will receive. You can see it in the American media already. Fox news in particular are peddling the line that Hamas are terrorists and if Palestinians support terrorists then they are terrorists themselves. Never do they indulge and explore the subject and find out why regular Palestinians are supporting Hamas.
Excuse my ignorance, but I don't recognise whoever that statue is of.
And I've read that Carol Hunt article before and she does raise some good points. My viewpoint is not Anti Israel by default, or anti-Israel at all. My viewpoint is that there are children and innocent people dying in a conflict unnecessarily. You ask how I propose to disarm Hamas. Unfortunately my background isn't a military one, so I don't have an answer to that, but if indiscriminate bombing of innocent people, women and children is the way to go about it then it's a very, very sad time.
Just as a footnote, I do appreciate your viewpoint on all of this. I find it very interesting to get insights from both sides of this conflict. I also appreciate that you are in a minority on sites like this, which can lead to you having to fight your corner every time you log on here which I imagine gets tiring.
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Holyland Red already acknowledged, that Hamas wants civilian casualties, because it lets them win the PR battle, which gives them sympathy. So to me, people who say Israel should continue their fire are supporting Hamas. They might not like them or really want to support them but they are doing so at least indirectly. Aren´t they?
Yes, we'll have to disagree. It is a lip service because when a people elect a leadership with a clear genocidal agenda they are accountable for the outcome. And when the outcome is a barrage of thousands of rockets on populated areas in a neighbouring democracy there should be only one party the free world should side with. Criticism and ideas about a long-term solution aside, this latest round of violence is as easy a scenario as you're gonna get to exchanges between good and evil. The digraceful conditioning of war crimes allegations by Western apologists of Hamas not only smacks of double standards, but undermine the weakening of Hamas and the chance for a future moderate Palestinian leadership. The poor Palestinians are just excused for every mistake they make. Stinks of patronage, if you ask me. The poor primitive imbeciles can't tell between right and wrong, can they?
This wouldn't explain why the PLO (those secular moderates...) was founded in 1964 though, would it? Three years before the "occupation, caging, living hell" and so on. Perhaps their goal was not a two-state solution, because back then the WB and GS were under Jordanian and Egyptian control, respectively. There was no talk of a Palestinian state at all back then. Perhaps that was not what they wanted. Which leads me to stress again how poor the NI analogy is. What were the Sinn Fein/IRA territorial claims from mainland UK? The Palestinians and their leadership, whether Hamas or the "moderate" Fatah, do not acknowledge the right of the Jewish people for an independent state in the ME. I never watched FOX news, and I don't really care what they have to say. However, since you appear to be employing logic to your argument you should be able to follow mine too. Killing innocent Palestinian civilians will only result in strengthening Hamas and in international condemnation of Israel. Why on earth wouldn't Israel try and minimise civilian casualties during the Gaza operation? Forget morality issues, it'd be just counter-productive. Yet what we hear from some quarters is a choir of war crimes allegations. The simple fact is that we're fighting an enemy which is dedicated to the eradication of our country. That enemy enjoys popular support among the people they use as human shields, knowing the IDF does not kill civilians indiscriminately (otherwise, why use the tactic?). Then you enter the picture and fill your role in the play, by blaming the death toll on Israel.
Look, this is so embarrasingly clear, and therefore leads to one fundamental issue which seems to be in disagreemnt here. If one sides with the democratically-elected Hamas or Israel in this conflict is correlated with the support of Jewish self-determination in the ME. You may a very different stance to mine on that one, which would make discussing tactics and code of engagement in combat pointless.
Bomber Harris. He was in charge of the "area bombings" of German cities in WW2. Including Dresden where 25,000 civilians are estimated to have been killed in three days.
Indiscriminate bombing? You don't need a military background to understand that this is nothing but a slogan which has been in use by Palestinians and their biased suppoerters. Do you think that a month long bombardment of Gaza would result in the estimated casualty figures we hear about? At your own admission, you don't have an answer to the most basic of issues the Israeli side needs to address. And unlike you, they can't take their time on that because civilian population here is under constant rocket fire. These are indeed sad times, and believe me I have no joy in hearing about the death of innocents on the other side. The scenes are horrific, and I understand why people who are not fighting for their very existence will tend to be biased towards to "underdog".
We never had the luxury of tiring when fighting our corner as a minority.... nevermind posting here pays my bills.
I've stopped watching the news...heartbreaking. At least this ceasefire seems to be holding, long road ahead but hopefully the two communities can peacefully coexist by the end of it.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28683800
Israel has offered to extend a three-day ceasefire in Gaza which began on Tuesday after nearly a month of conflict, Israeli officials say.
Israel has offered to extend a three-day ceasefire in Gaza which began on Tuesday after nearly a month of conflict, Israeli officials say.
I think this three-day extension deserves a slow-clap.
This whole escapade is a disgrace. My mind is officially blown. When Israel has done and completed what it wanted to do, the whole world will completely forget about this in a week or two and the people of Gaza will be forgotten and treated like animals in a cage until the next time Israel decides to teach them a lesson, for whatever reason they choose to find next time. Then there will be a pointless discussion/debate where world leaders will pretend they give a shit, we will discuss and debate on here pointlessly, whilst thousands more innocent civilians who are already in slave camps will be killed and again, Israel will not be punished or brought to justice for its war crimes against humanity. They will tell the UN not to interfere and the US will say, 'they have a right to defend themselves bla bla' and probably at around July next year, this will all kick off again after this conflict has finished and Israel will look to test out its new toys it has received from the US and they need to find some test dummies to use it on.
This whole escapade is a disgrace. My mind is officially blown. When Israel has done and completed what it wanted to do, the whole world will completely forget about this in a week or two and the people of Gaza will be forgotten and treated like animals in a cage until the next time Israel decides to teach them a lesson, for whatever reason they choose to find next time. Then there will be a pointless discussion/debate where world leaders will pretend they give a shit, we will discuss and debate on here pointlessly, whilst thousands more innocent civilians who are already in slave camps will be killed and again, Israel will not be punished or brought to justice for its war crimes against humanity. They will tell the UN not to interfere and the US will say, 'they have a right to defend themselves bla bla' and probably at around July next year, this will all kick off again after this conflict has finished and Israel will look to test out its new toys it has received from the US and they need to find some test dummies to use it on.
To be perfectly honset, we're tired of that routine too. Here's hoping next time Islamic fundamentalists choose to blow up civilians it will be in your civilised country.
Powerful. Completely agree with him.
Here's an update of stats I saw today.
Even National socialists were more human ....
Islamic fundamentalists/Israeli Terrorists....tomato (american)/tomato (english). Same thing.
Sounds better when spoken lol. You get the picture.
I reckon you'd get the picture no matter which terrorists fired rockets at your neighbourhood.
Not sure about that. Still, they were just as crap at defending their civilian population.
Did your superiors give you that come back? It's weak. About as weak as your justification for this current massacre of innocent people.
So now that this affair seems to be winding down, does anyone actually think it was a good idea for Hamas to have done it in the first place ? What did they get out of it other than death and destruction ?
I reckon there'll be a group of individuals who will benefit greatly from the cash poured in as aid for the suffering population.
I sort of see this as Hamas' last stand. Booted out of Syria, no more support from the Egyptian Brotherhood President, had their rockets and tunnels destroyed, forced to outsource power to Fatah, and massively strapped for cash.
Apparently they barely got a seat at the table in Cairo, as al-Sisi only sees Fatah as the legitimate voice of Palestinians.
Don't underestimate Hamas. They are in trouble, but probably benefit from Israel reluctance to bring anarchy to the GS. Another strength they have is the crippling effect of international criticism on Israel. If Hamas renewed fire tomorrow it wouldn't take long before the blame is defelected towards Israel again.
You are right regarding Al-sisi's sentiments towards Hamas. He sees them for what they are, i.e. and extension of the Muslim Brotherhood. However, no matter what the Egyptian distatorship thinks I reckon Hamas would have beaten Fatah in an election if there was even going to be another such evnt in Gaza. Fatah isn't a "legitimate" voice of anyone. Those you refer to as "Fatah" are a bunch of retired terrorists with no popular support. Hamas would have swept the WB too if it wasn't for Israel's military presence.
Hamas didn't start this
Let's start this most recent timeline when the rockets began.
Lets not
I condemn Israel's policy a bit but thats probably one of the most awful analogies I have read on it.
Ok, since that makes you uncomfortable.
What good has come out of the past few weeks of fighting ? How has the cause of Palestinians in Gaza been improved relative to the death and destruction that has taken place ?
What "policy" do you condemn a bit?
I think you find it uncomfortable thinking this is Israels fault, hence your timeline
I belive the seige will be lifted to an extent
Shouldn't this analysis also include a bit of comment about Hamas too? After all they are as much responsible as Israel. Thats where the bias becomes evident.
Not trying to limit/reduce civillian casualties?
Well that's a good thing then.
I disagree with with this statement. Civilian casualties are inevitable when the battle is fought in residential areas.
Rubbish.
The Iron Dome saved countless civilian life, as did all the bunkers built throughout Israel.
An interesting reflection of the mindset of your government, right there.
The only civilians anyone could possibly care about are Israeli civilians.