Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

Kaos said:
You forgot this one:

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"From Israel, with love"
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Wizard Keyaz said:
that just says it all doesn't it
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"To Nassrallah", the person who ordered the bombardment of these children. We discussed these in 2006, when these pictures were taken. I'm proud that this is all you can come up with.

"Gaza summer camp". Google.
 
Mihajlovic said:
I don't understand what her point is. She is reporting from a hospital full of injured people which is an absolutely horrific experience. At the same time Hamas is launching rockets from the hospital grounds and Israeli media a using her report only to underline that this is still the threat and the difficulty they're dealing with, namely the deliberate firing of rockets from civilian areas, schools, hospitals, etc. How is this 'propaganda'?

In fact, people should have rushed out to the parking lot and fecking chased them away. Not a word of condemnation from the reporter either.
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I wondered why the reporters viewing gruesome images from Gaza or quoting questionable figures about civilian casualties did not ask not to use their reports as propaganda.
 
holyland red said:
The first pic is of Arab kids getting their Hamas/Hizballah indoctrination and military training in motion.

The rest (perhaps bar the tank one) are of right-wing settlers participating in a regrettable one-off event on independence day. That their kids are indocrinated I have no doubt. How wisespread these ugly scenes are in the two soicieties you could learn with that internet of yours.
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So why can't the Palestinian have the same "regrettable one-off event" is it that the Isrealies are perceived to be some how more superior to the Palestinians?
 
It says it all when you see how much effort holyland red puts in trying to defend israel in this thread.
 
What point is holyland red trying to make anyway when posting pictures young Palestinian children in military clothing or with arms?
 
Wizard Keyaz said:
So why can't the Palestinian have the same "regrettable one-off event" is it that the Isrealies are perceived to be some how more superior to the Palestinians?
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I said in a previous post the Israelis were not superior to anyone. I also said in the past that there are elements among the Jewish settlers that are every bit as dangerous as Hamas. Fact is that these elements did not get even one seat in the Israeli parliament in the last general elections whereas their Palestinian counterparts won the elections in the Palestinian territory. That's the difference in how widespread this dangerous child indoctrination is.
 
sullydnl said:
Hmmm, that sounds dangerously like balanced thinking. Not sure you understand how this thread is supposed to work... :)
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Everyone, and every source is always biased. You are biased, I am biased, there is no such thing as an unbiased source. However, that doesn't mean you should fall into the trap of thinking that the answer or truth necessarily falls in the middle ground, sometimes it does, but it often does not. An extreme example I'd give is the climate change "debate", where the answer between two sides certainly does not fall in the middle. There are plenty more examples but keep it in mind when looking at your sources.
 
Mihajlovic said:
I don't understand what her point is. She is reporting from a hospital full of injured people which is an absolutely horrific experience. At the same time Hamas is launching rockets from the hospital grounds and Israeli media a using her report only to underline that this is still the threat and the difficulty they're dealing with, namely the deliberate firing of rockets from civilian areas, schools, hospitals, etc. How is this 'propaganda'?

In fact, people should have rushed out to the parking lot and fecking chased them away. Not a word of condemnation from the reporter either.
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She quotes:

"During the night someone launched a rocket somewhere behind the hospital."

Now rockets being fired can be pretty audible, so we don't know how close or far it was from the hospital. The fact that she seemed a bit ambiguous of the location meant that they most likely couldn't pinpoint the location. Yet the article headline makes it seem as if the hospital was the launch site of the rockets. That's pretty misleading journalism.
 
Kaos said:
Hate to break it to you, but the very same anti-semites in those videos hate fellow Muslims (Shia and Ahmadi) as much..if not more than they hate Jews. They're all round crazy bigots.
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Understood. At 21.20 though it sadly reflects the nature of Gazan education.
 
Kaos said:
Hate to break it to you, but the very same anti-semites in those videos hate fellow Muslims (Shia and Ahmadi) as much..if not more than they hate Jews. They're all round crazy bigots.
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You're not suggesting for a second that anti semitism isn't just as wide spread within other sects of islam are you? Because that's completely disenengous. Anti semitism is absolutely rife in Islam and it contributes in small part to islamaphobia within the Jewish community. I say this as someone who lives in a community with a fair few Muslims, not far from a community predominantly full of Jews.
 
Devil_forever said:
You're not suggesting for a second that anti semitism isn't just as wide spread within other sects of islam are you? Because that's completely disenengous. Anti semitism is absolutely rife in Islam and it contributes in small part to islamaphobia within the Jewish community. I say this as someone who lives in a community with a fair few Muslims, not far from a community predominantly full of Jews.
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Its not as wide-spread no. Considering that the video Fearless posted quoted selective snippets from Wahabis and extremist Sunnis then I'd say there's no way there's an equal amount of vitriol amongst other moderate Muslims I've known. I regard all religions with equal disdain but to generalise that anti-semitism has been equally vociferous across all walks of one religion is a bit disingenuous in itself.

Besides, this isn't really the discussion we should be having. Its classic diversion tactics seen from the same couple of posters in this thread.
 
Kaos said:
She quotes:

"During the night someone launched a rocket somewhere behind the hospital."

Now rockets being fired can be pretty audible, so we don't know how close or far it was from the hospital. The fact that she seemed a bit ambiguous of the location meant that they most likely couldn't pinpoint the location. Yet the article headline makes it seem as if the hospital was the launch site of the rockets. That's pretty misleading journalism.
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"I try to cover the events truthfully as I see them and I strongly condemn these kind of actions." "The people sharing this story are not even trying to understand the situation as a whole."

It's only ambiguous if you want to ignore the facts. Discreditting the IDF spokesman is fine, but when one Aishi zidan from Finnish TV report backs the former you need to be extremely biased to suggest ambiguity here. Applying common sense here wouldn't be so challenging here too. Based on the evidence you do have, do you honestly think that Hamas does not use hospitals and schools for rocket launching?
 
holyland red said:
"I try to cover the events truthfully as I see them and I strongly condemn these kind of actions." "The people sharing this story are not even trying to understand the situation as a whole."

It's only ambiguous if you want to ignore the facts. Discreditting the IDF spokesman is fine, but when one Aishi zidan from Finnish TV report backs the former you need to be extremely biased to suggest ambiguity here. Applying common sense here wouldn't be so challenging here too. Based on the evidence you do have, do you honestly think that Hamas does not use hospitals and schools for rocket launching?
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She was referring to the Israeli apologists who have predictably spread this one story like wildfire (as evident from my facebook feed), using it as a very intimate staw to clutch on to justify Israeli aggression. Of course I'm not discreditting her, I'm quoting her verbatim. Ynet on the other hand likes to twist her words as make out as the hospital was the de facto launch site.

Hamas may very well have launched rockets from hospitals and schools historically or a couple of times in this conflict, its hard to see with conflicting statements. Though many a time it seems the IDF are being somewhat trigger happy targeting civilian dense locations with tenuous reasons to do so, and despite warnings and denials of there being any Hamas presence.
 
Kaos said:
Its not as wide-spread no. Considering that the video Fearless posted quoted selective snippets from Wahabis and extremist Sunnis then I'd say there's no way there's an equal amount of vitriol amongst other moderate Muslims I've known. I regard all religions with equal disdain but to generalise that anti-semitism has been equally vociferous across all walks of one religion is a bit disingenuous in itself.

Besides, this isn't really the discussion we should be having. Its classic diversion tactics seen from the same couple of posters in this thread.
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Of course it is a diversion tactic. It does not belong here at ll:

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4384.htm

Hamas are extremist sunnis the last time I checked, and more than a couple of posters here find themselves on their side. More than a couple (surprisingly enough, some of them were the same individuals) sided with Hamas' Shiia nutter colleagues in 2006. They're not anti-semitic either, are they?
 
holyland red said:
Of course it is a diversion tactic. It does not belong here at ll:

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/4384.htm

Hamas are extremist sunnis the last time I checked, and more than a couple of posters here find themselves on their side. More than a couple (surprisingly enough, some of them were the same individuals) sided with Hamas' Shiia nutter colleagues in 2006. They're not anti-semitic either, are they?
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I'm not talking about Hamas or friends. I'm referring to those who object to Israel's policies. Fearless chose to generalise on anti-semitic trends so naturally it was going to be scrutinised.
 
Kaos said:
She was referring to the Israeli apologists who have predictably spread this one story like wildfire (as evident from my facebook feed), using it as a very intimate staw to clutch on to justify Israeli aggression. Of course I'm not discreditting her, I'm quoting her verbatim. Ynet on the other hand likes to twist her words as make out as the hospital was the de facto launch site.

Hamas may very well have launched rockets from hospitals and schools historically or a couple of times in this conflict, its hard to see with conflicting statements. Though many a time it seems the IDF are being somewhat trigger happy targeting civilian dense locations with tenuous reasons to do so, and despite warnings and denials of there being any Hamas presence.
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http://honestreporting.com/foreign-journalists-acknowledge-hamas-human-shields-tactics/

Conflicting statements? you're more than welcome to represent the Arab corner here, but don't be daft reducing this debate to an argument with a couple of posters. You also have a tough argument with reality here.
 
Kaos said:
I'm not talking about Hamas or friends. I'm referring to those who object to Israel's policies. Fearless chose to generalise on anti-semitic trends so naturally it was going to be scrutinised.
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Are you denying that antisemitism is rife in the Arab world in general, and in the PA in particular?
 
holyland red said:
http://honestreporting.com/foreign-journalists-acknowledge-hamas-human-shields-tactics/

Conflicting statements? you're more than welcome to represent the Arab corner here, but don't be daft reducing this debate to an argument with a couple of posters. You also have a tough argument with reality here.
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The conflicting statements was in regard to whether rocket fire was sourcing from schools and hospitals. The IDF claims it was, the UN officials on site claim otherwise. I'm not making a moral case for Hamas.
 
holyland red said:
Are you denying that antisemitism is rife in the Arab world in general, and in the PA in particular?
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No. The Arab world is hopelessly bigoted, not just towards Jews either.

Though they're not the only ones in the world opposing this campaign.
 
Kaos said:
The conflicting statements was in regard to whether rocket fire was sourcing from schools and hospitals. The IDF claims it was, the UN officials on site claim otherwise. I'm not making a moral case for Hamas.
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There may have been conflicting statements regarding a specific incident. Using that to brush aside this latest report, cosidering the independent source is dishonest.
 
Let's start from the beginning.

We know as fact that Israel has reached peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan. Leaping from those facts it's at least plausible to believe that Israel might be willing to reach a peace agreement with the Palestinians.

Note the use of the word "might". It is fair to be skeptical of this assertion.

On what basis can we believe that Palestine's political leadership might be interested in reaching a peace agreement with Israel?
 
Gannicus said:
On what basis can we believe that Palestine's political leadership might be interested in reaching a peace agreement with Israel?
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Basically none, because Palestine's political leadership is, currently, a group of religious extremists intent on the removal of any Jewish presence or state from the planet (or at least their neighbourhood).
 
Gannicus said:
Let's start from the beginning.

We know as fact that Israel has reached peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan. Leaping from those facts it's at least plausible to believe that Israel might be willing to reach a peace agreement with the Palestinians.

Note the use of the word "might". It is fair to be skeptical of this assertion.

On what basis can we believe that Palestine's political leadership might be interested in reaching a peace agreement with Israel?
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Neither of those nations had to accept Israel as a 'Jewish' nation. Ramifications for accepting peace with the Egyptians and Jordanians were low - yes the Sinai had to be conceded but the Sinai was never a part of the original 'map' Israel had in mind. Just peace with the Palestinians would result in serious ramifications and concessions - including declaring borders, ceasing settlement programs and conceding land. That's why they're insisting the Palestinians accept them as a Jewish state because they know they would never accept it.
 
Gannicus said:
Let's start from the beginning.

We know as fact that Israel has reached peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan. Leaping from those facts it's at least plausible to believe that Israel might be willing to reach a peace agreement with the Palestinians.

Note the use of the word "might". It is fair to be skeptical of this assertion.

On what basis can we believe that Palestine's political leadership might be interested in reaching a peace agreement with Israel?
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the comparison makes no sense. Peace between Egypt/Jordan and Israel was possible, because their conflict is almost only ideological. There is no fundamental disagreements about territory.
If that proves anything, its quite the opposite: Peace between Israel and Muslim countries is possible if religion/ideology is the main cause for the conflict.
Israelis and Palestinians have substantial disagreements about things, that have little to do with religion. The conflict has a strong religious component, but reducing it only to this oversimplifies the problem. The logic conclusion is, that peace is possible, if Israel and Palestine can strike and agreement on these factual, non religious issues.
 
I don't see religion being a barrier to peace either. The Saudis and Qataris being racist Wahabi states are more than happy to covertly shake hands with Israel behind the scenes.
 
Just for the record; Arabs are Semetic people too. Not that any racism or religious extremism is justified, whether it's from Muslims, Jews or whoever.
 
Suedesi said:
I'd be interested in having your opinion on this video; Mr. Molyneux highlights some interesting points that makes this worth the watch.

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Fantastic watch and really insightful. I was particularly taken aback by the fundamentals of the Hallakhah that allowed soldiers to kill innocents as long as they are non jews even if they are sure they are harmless. Sheds a good amount of light on what's going on atm.
 
Kaos said:
I don't see religion being a barrier to peace either. The Saudis and Qataris being racist Wahabi states are more than happy to covertly shake hands with Israel behind the scenes.
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Qatar is the prime funding source of Hamas terrorism.
 
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