It's still not quite politically-correct to blame everything on the Jews.
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
It's still not quite politically-correct to blame everything on the Jews.
To the best of my knowledge the school was not hit. Enjoy the popcorn.
these 2 feckers can defend anything happens in gaza . i guess living in that war dammed patch of sand twist your mind to no return .
Nice of you to avoid some answers. School entrance was hit. Full of civilians.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28632287
It's a standard procedure, people seek shelter somewhere only to get hit there. There's no escape, they warn them to flee and hit them somewhere else.
And imagine, Israelis were targeting 3 Hamas guys on a bike. And that of course means those Hamas guys used civilians as a shield. So lets hit the school and maybe we'll get those 3 militants.
People were queuing for food but maybe they were getting armed there, who knows. They had it coming in any case..
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Could this be a turning point in the conflict, i.e. is there any chance the population would turn against the Hamas seeing their policy has been pretty crap so far? Just wondering, no matter how much you hate the State of Israel etc, but wouldn't you start contemplating an alternative? Rockets and tunnels- is that what the population has voted for?
But what's the alternative? You think Isreal would just leave Palestinians to have their own state if they would give up on Hamas?
I am sure you have a lot of experience of how simple it is to fight a terrorist organisation in one one of the most densely populated places on earth, Mali Zeus.
You can always paint a narrative that suits your agenda by taking isolated cases like this one and simplifying Israeli motivations. The picture would look immeasurably different if we were able to listen in on Israeli communications regarding each strike that is carried out. I am certain there are a huge number of strikes that are called off due to the high risk of killing civilians.
This is the reality of carrying out an operation of this scale in such a densely populated area. The major question here is: is the scale of operation being carried out by Israel justified? The answer will depend on how highly you view national security and how sacred you believe the lives of individuals to be. Any rational person will be left with the conundrum Israel currently faces and should feel uncomfortable about posting with so much conviction about the evil of Israel in this. The vast majority of what is being posted at the moment is simply emotional vomit.
You can always paint a narrative that suits your agenda by taking isolated cases like this one and simplifying Israeli motivations. The picture would look immeasurably different if we were able to listen in on Israeli communications regarding each strike that is carried out. I am certain there are a huge number of strikes that are called off due to the high risk of killing civilians.
This is the reality of carrying out an operation of this scale in such a densely populated area. The major question here is: is the scale of operation being carried out by Israel justified? The answer will depend on how highly you view national security and how sacred you believe the lives of individuals to be. Any rational person will be left with the conundrum Israel currently faces and should feel uncomfortable about posting with so much conviction about the evil of Israel in this. The vast majority of what is being posted at the moment is simply emotional vomit.
What's the alternative?
That Israeli Govt/Modern day Nazis continue to steal Palestinian land, limit/block basic supplies, continue to arrest Palestinians without charge, murder Palestinians in cold blood knowing their will be no trouble to ensue, keep Gazans on the brink of starvation - but all under a Palestinian authority Israel approve of?
feck Israel, I look forward to the day, which will eventually come, that they are bought to justice
That Israeli Govt/Modern day Nazis continue to steal Palestinian land, limit/block basic supplies, continue to arrest Palestinians without charge, murder Palestinians in cold blood knowing their will be no trouble to ensue, keep Gazans on the brink of starvation - but all under a Palestinian authority Israel approve of?
feck Israel, I look forward to the day, which will eventually come, that they are bought to justice
If Israel wants to fight/kill off a terrorist threat, committing suicide should be considered by them
I wonder what would you say if civilians in your country would get killed every day. It seems you're looking at the whole stroy through Isreal eyes.
As for the first part of your post about israeli communications its pure speculation. And for every called off attack if there is any there's a bomb on a market, bomb on a school, bomb on kids playing at the beach and so on...
As for emotional vomit. I guess you tell yourself that every time you see a dead Palestinian child on tv.
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It's not pure speculation; it is the reliable word of many many Israelis and military personnel from other nations who have operated closely with them in the past.
The same hypothetical you pose here can be turned back on you. What would you do if civilians in your country were constantly under missile attack and threat from underneath in the form of Hamas tunnels?
Are you suggesting I don't care about Palestinian children? I care as much as I do for children anywhere else in the world.
When you argue that destroying rockets which do not kill is worth the continuous flow of child casualties on the other side, its quite clear you value one set of lives over the other. At least have the conviction to stand by what you say.
Reliable word from Israeli and military personnel. Well I believe it when you put it like that.
They wouldnt lie wouldnt they?
How many people got killed cause of the rockets?
I certainly wouldnt bomb refugee shelters and places where people are seeking refuge for example.
And if you do care about Palestinian children you care in a very strange way.
As I said you're looking at it through Isreali eyes and would find and excuse for every civilian death.
In any case posting in here doesnt make any sense when there are people who can just go over the photos and videos of dead children and find a very rational explanation for those attrocities.
Goodbye to you all.
Well one of the advantages of giving up on Hamas is that you'd be literally saving hundreds of lives since no one would be firing rockets at Israel and Israel wouldn't need to respond. There's an obvious reason why there weren't 1000+ casualties in the WestBank over the last three weeks.
Does anyone in Gaza even question this 'resistance' bollocks?! Does anyone realise that it's just not working out?What's the plan now? Please don't tell me it's back to digging tunnels and smuggling rockets!
Noam Chomsky views(makes for grim listening)
You're trying to get me to stand by a distorted version of what I truly say. It's dishonest and the attempt to accuse me of lacking conviction because I don't agree with the way you've misconstrued my view is simply silly.
I don't expect Israel to have to live with constant tunnel and missile threat from Hamas. The success, or lack thereof, of Hamas' attacks (and Israelis do die in these attacks, usually military personnel who are defending the civilian population in stark contrast to their enemy who like to do the opposite) doesn't determine what is and isn't an appropriate response.
Instead they'd be in prison forever
Thought so. Tunnels and rockets it is then.
My point is not to justify every civilian death, but to allow reason into the discussion given the complexity of the problem Israel faces. It stands to reason that it must be incredibly difficult for Israel to fight this fight without civilian casualties.
The other side of the argument in here seems to be saying that Israel just shouldn't fight the fight. I find that totally lacking in empathy for the Israelis.
Now who has got emotional vomit all over their pullover?
Of course there is empathy for Israelis, and especially for the Jewish community who have experienced some totally unjustifiable abuse over the past few weeks in particular. No-one expects Israel to 'lie down', but the idea that the IDF are doing everything they can to minimise unnecessary deaths is ridiculous. The brutality or poor attempts at minimising casualties (whichever way you interpret the failure to take appropriate care) is evident in this and previous conflicts. The fact that the Hamas fire does little to no damage is not a reason to accept it, but it calls for a different response than you would have to an enemy actually capable of killing your civilians, rather than a purely one sided conflict in terms of casualties.
Of course there is empathy for Israelis, and especially for the Jewish community who have experienced some totally unjustifiable abuse over the past few weeks in particular. No-one expects Israel to 'lie down', but the idea that the IDF are doing everything they can to minimise unnecessary deaths is ridiculous. The brutality or poor attempts at minimising casualties (whichever way you interpret the failure to take appropriate care) is evident in this and previous conflicts. The fact that the Hamas fire does little to no damage is not a reason to accept it, but it calls for a different response than you would have to an enemy actually capable of killing your civilians, rather than a purely one sided conflict in terms of casualties.
I guess HR couldn't reply to my simple post anyways guys have a look at this
Is this a joke??????
Is this a joke??????
That is basically what is happening, justifying every civilian death, so what do you actually know what is happening in Gaza???
In a nutshell, Hamas is flicking match sticks over the wall compared to the big artillery might Israel have and using whilst committing acts of criminal war
That's a good answer
That's his country so what you expect? Saying Hamas are great people for trying to kill Israeli civilians?
I guess HR couldn't reply to my simple post anyways guys have a look at this
Is this a joke??????
it's John Kerry so the answer is quite obviously; yes, the man lost to Bush for fecks sake, he has all the political nous of a hippie high on ecstasy ranting about rainbows.
The official IDF statement did mention a PIJ combatants on bikes as you said. The bike/s was missed and the missile hit the road outside the school resulting in the regretful civilian loss of life. This is a tragedy that could easilt have been avoided if Hamas did not violate Friday's ceasefire after less than 2 hours in an attack that killed 3 Israeli soldiers, and the snatching of body parts of one of them.
Who will be brought to justice one day?
Rockets kill
How many people would die if Croatia was targeted with 3000 rockets?
None if they had an Iron Dome. Seriously, how do you get away with being disgustingly inhuman in this thread? Do you lack this much compassion in real life?
How do you get away with being so terribly uninformed? Iron Dome isn't able to intercept all incoming rockets.
We have an Iron Dome because we have to invest our resources in military equipment that is not required anywhere else. We have Iron Dome because we are a nation that has seen indiscriminate attacks on its civilian population for years and years. Our enemies use their best capabilities to cause as many civilian deaths in our cities as possible. They do it while firing from within their own populations. They also do it to the sound of vocal protests about the measure of Israel's response. Iron Dome allows the Israeli leadership to avoid a proportionate response, which would be using our best capabilities to inflict as many civilian casualties as possible. That's proportionate.
Unlike you, we also have gas masks in our bedroom closets. Some have those closets in a reinforced concrete-wall security room. You also do not have these, do you? I guess this makes it OK for our adversaries to use chemical weapons too. Have you ever wondered about our right to live normal life, and how disproportionate it is living under these threats? I thought not, that's probably why neither you nor the Croats have Iron dome. You may have also noticed that many many people have put some thought into the matter, and concluded that no, Israelis do not have a right to live normal life. That's where compassion starts eroding.
You kind of put your own life ahead of that of your enemy when you're under its rocket fire. When pictures of the dead filter through you recall that this violoence was initiated by the other side, which then violated 6 ceasefires including last Friday's.
Screaming "Nazis" on here does not make anyone any more compassionate than I am. I don't want to see the suffering of innocents any more than you do, but I'm not willing to sacrifice any fellow Israeli so you can enjoy an even contest on TV.
I'll take moral advice from people who have taken the risks they are suggesting us to take, facing an enemy which wouldn't settle for anything other than the destruction of our country.
“Concentrate” and “exterminate”: Israel parliament deputy speaker’s Gaza genocide plan
Moshe Feiglin, the deputy speaker of the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, has published a plan for the total destruction of the Palestinian people in Gaza.
His detailed plan, which calls for the use of concentration camps, amounts to direct and public incitement to genocide – a punishable crime under the Genocide Convention.
In a 1 August posting on his Facebook page, Feiglin, a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s ruling Likud Party, calls for the “conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters.”
“This is our country – our country exclusively,” he writes, “including Gaza.”
Feiglin’s posting is the text of a letter he addressed to Netanyahu.
Citizens and public authorities around the world should attempt to have Feiglin arrested and prosecuted under the Genocide Convention for his statements, should he set foot in their territories.
His abominable plan comes as the death toll from Israel’s ongoing slaughter in Gaza reaches 1,752 people, including ten persons killed on Sunday morning when Israelonce again bombed a United Nations-run school being used as a shelter, this time in the southern town of Rafah.
Feiglin, like his Knesset colleague Ayelet Shaked, has previously made genocidal statements, but these are perhaps his most specific and explicit.
Calling for mass extermination and ethnic cleansing, Feiglin now urges Netanyahu to “turn Gaza into Jaffa, a flourishing Israeli city with a minimum number of hostile civilians.”
Jaffa is a major Palestinian coastal city that was ethnically cleansed by Zionist militias in 1948 and incorporated into present-day Israel. The few thousand Palestinians who remain in the city face ongoing attempts to force them out.
As of this writing, Feiglin’s Facebook post had more than eight thousand “Likes” and had been shared almost two thousand times.
“Concentrate” and “exterminate”
Feiglin writes that the Israeli army must “designate certain open areas on the Sinai border, adjacent to the sea, in which the civilian population will be concentrated, far from the built-up areas that are used for launches and tunneling. In these areas, tent encampments will be established, until relevant emigration destinations are determined.”
“Tent encampments,” where the Palestinian civilian population would be “concentrated,” are simply concentration camps.
“The supply of electricity and water to the formerly populated areas will be disconnected,” he adds.
He then calls for the “formerly populated areas” to be “shelled with maximum fire power. The entire civilian and military infrastructure of Hamas, its means of communication and of logistics, will be destroyed entirely, down to their foundations.”
The Israeli army would then “exterminate nests of resistance, in the event that any should remain.”
Expulsion
“Israel will start searching for emigration destinations and quotas for the refugees from Gaza,” Feiglin writes, but “those who insist on staying, if they can be proven to have no affiliation with Hamas, will be required to publicly sign a declaration of loyalty to Israel, and receive a blue ID card similar to that of the Arabs of East Jerusalem.”
Feiglin’s statements are crimes
The Genocide Convention defines genocide as any of a number acts “committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such.”
These acts are:
Any fair-minded prosecutor would see that Feiglin’s statements provide ample probable cause for action under the convention.
State parties to the Genocide Convention are obligated to punish crimes under the Genocide Convention in their domestic courts.
Citizens around the world should seek to have Feiglin and any other Israeli leaders who commit genocidal acts arrested and sent for trial by using whatever legal mechanisms are available, including notifying law enforcement and immigration authorities of such genocidal statements.
Moshe Feiglin, the deputy speaker of the Knesset, Israel’s parliament, has published a plan for the total destruction of the Palestinian people in Gaza.
His detailed plan, which calls for the use of concentration camps, amounts to direct and public incitement to genocide – a punishable crime under the Genocide Convention.
In a 1 August posting on his Facebook page, Feiglin, a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s ruling Likud Party, calls for the “conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters.”
“This is our country – our country exclusively,” he writes, “including Gaza.”
Feiglin’s posting is the text of a letter he addressed to Netanyahu.
Citizens and public authorities around the world should attempt to have Feiglin arrested and prosecuted under the Genocide Convention for his statements, should he set foot in their territories.
His abominable plan comes as the death toll from Israel’s ongoing slaughter in Gaza reaches 1,752 people, including ten persons killed on Sunday morning when Israelonce again bombed a United Nations-run school being used as a shelter, this time in the southern town of Rafah.
Feiglin, like his Knesset colleague Ayelet Shaked, has previously made genocidal statements, but these are perhaps his most specific and explicit.
Calling for mass extermination and ethnic cleansing, Feiglin now urges Netanyahu to “turn Gaza into Jaffa, a flourishing Israeli city with a minimum number of hostile civilians.”
Jaffa is a major Palestinian coastal city that was ethnically cleansed by Zionist militias in 1948 and incorporated into present-day Israel. The few thousand Palestinians who remain in the city face ongoing attempts to force them out.
As of this writing, Feiglin’s Facebook post had more than eight thousand “Likes” and had been shared almost two thousand times.
“Concentrate” and “exterminate”
Feiglin writes that the Israeli army must “designate certain open areas on the Sinai border, adjacent to the sea, in which the civilian population will be concentrated, far from the built-up areas that are used for launches and tunneling. In these areas, tent encampments will be established, until relevant emigration destinations are determined.”
“Tent encampments,” where the Palestinian civilian population would be “concentrated,” are simply concentration camps.
“The supply of electricity and water to the formerly populated areas will be disconnected,” he adds.
He then calls for the “formerly populated areas” to be “shelled with maximum fire power. The entire civilian and military infrastructure of Hamas, its means of communication and of logistics, will be destroyed entirely, down to their foundations.”
The Israeli army would then “exterminate nests of resistance, in the event that any should remain.”
Expulsion
“Israel will start searching for emigration destinations and quotas for the refugees from Gaza,” Feiglin writes, but “those who insist on staying, if they can be proven to have no affiliation with Hamas, will be required to publicly sign a declaration of loyalty to Israel, and receive a blue ID card similar to that of the Arabs of East Jerusalem.”
Feiglin’s statements are crimes
The Genocide Convention defines genocide as any of a number acts “committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such.”
These acts are:
- Killing members of the group;
- Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
- Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
- Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
- Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
- “There are no two states, and there are no two peoples. There is only one state for one people.”
- “The strategic enemy is extremist Arab Islam in all its varieties, from Iran to Gaza, which seeks to annihilate Israel in its entirety.”
Any fair-minded prosecutor would see that Feiglin’s statements provide ample probable cause for action under the convention.
State parties to the Genocide Convention are obligated to punish crimes under the Genocide Convention in their domestic courts.
Citizens around the world should seek to have Feiglin and any other Israeli leaders who commit genocidal acts arrested and sent for trial by using whatever legal mechanisms are available, including notifying law enforcement and immigration authorities of such genocidal statements.
Full translation of Feiglin’s statement
Feiglin’s Facebook page is verifiable as his because it is linked from his official page on the Knesset website.
Here is Feiglin’s 1 August statement on Facebook, translated in full by Dena Shunra:
With God’s Help
Attention
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu
Mr. Prime Minister,
We have just heard that Hamas has used the ceasefire to abduct an officer. It turns out that this operation is not about to be over any too soon.
The failures of this operation were inherent to it from the outset, because:
a) It has no proper and clear goal;
b) there is no appropriate moral framework to support our soldiers.
What is required now is that we internalize the fact that Oslo is finished, that this is our country – our country exclusively, including Gaza.
There are no two states, and there are no two peoples. There is only one state for one people.
Having internalized this, what is needed is a deep and thorough strategic review, in terms of the definition of the enemy, of the operational tasks, of the strategic goals, and of course, of appropriate necessary war ethics.
(1) Defining the enemy:
The strategic enemy is extremist Arab Islam in all its varieties, from Iran to Gaza, which seeks to annihilate Israel in its entirety. The immediate enemy is Hamas. (Not the tunnels, not the rockets, but Hamas.)
(2) Defining the tasks
Conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters.
(3) Defining the strategic goal:
To turn Gaza into Jaffa, a flourishing Israeli city with a minimum number of hostile civilians.
(4) Defining war ethics: “Woe to the evildoer, and woe to his neighbor”
In light of these four points, Israel must do the following:
a) The IDF [Israeli army] shall designate certain open areas on the Sinai border, adjacent to the sea, in which the civilian population will be concentrated, far from the built-up areas that are used for launches and tunneling. In these areas, tent encampments will be established, until relevant emigration destinations are determined.
The supply of electricity and water to the formerly populated areas will be disconnected.
b) The formerly populated areas will be shelled with maximum fire power. The entire civilian and military infrastructure of Hamas, its means of communication and of logistics, will be destroyed entirely, down to their foundations.
c) The IDF will divide the Gaza Strip laterally and crosswise, significantly expand the corridors, occupy commanding positions, and exterminate nests of resistance, in the event that any should remain.
d) Israel will start searching for emigration destinations and quotas for the refugees from Gaza. Those who wish to emigrate will be given a generous economic support package, and will arrive at the receiving countries with considerable economic capabilities.
e) Those who insist on staying, if they can be proven to have no affiliation with Hamas, will be required to publicly sign a declaration of loyalty to Israel, and receive a blue ID card similar to that of the Arabs of East Jerusalem.
f) When the fighting will end, Israeli law will be extended to cover the entire Gaza Strip, the people evicted from the Gush Katif will be invited to return to their settlements, and the city of Gaza and its suburbs will be rebuilt as true Israeli touristic and commercial cities.
Mr. Prime Minister,
This is the a fateful hour of decision in the history of the State of Israel.
All metastases of our enemy, from Iran and Hizballah through ISIS and the Muslim Brotherhood, are rubbing their hands gleefully and preparing themselves for the next round.
I am warning that any outcome that is less than what I defined here means encouraging the continued offensive against Israel. Only when Hizballah will understand how we have dealt with Hamas in the south, it will refrain from launching its 100,000 missiles from the north.
I call on you to adopt the strategy proposed here.
I have no doubt that the entire Israeli people will stand to your right with its overwhelming majority, like myself – if only you will adopt it.
With high regards, respectfully,
Moshe Feiglin
Feiglin’s Facebook page is verifiable as his because it is linked from his official page on the Knesset website.
Here is Feiglin’s 1 August statement on Facebook, translated in full by Dena Shunra:
With God’s Help
Attention
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu
Mr. Prime Minister,
We have just heard that Hamas has used the ceasefire to abduct an officer. It turns out that this operation is not about to be over any too soon.
The failures of this operation were inherent to it from the outset, because:
a) It has no proper and clear goal;
b) there is no appropriate moral framework to support our soldiers.
What is required now is that we internalize the fact that Oslo is finished, that this is our country – our country exclusively, including Gaza.
There are no two states, and there are no two peoples. There is only one state for one people.
Having internalized this, what is needed is a deep and thorough strategic review, in terms of the definition of the enemy, of the operational tasks, of the strategic goals, and of course, of appropriate necessary war ethics.
(1) Defining the enemy:
The strategic enemy is extremist Arab Islam in all its varieties, from Iran to Gaza, which seeks to annihilate Israel in its entirety. The immediate enemy is Hamas. (Not the tunnels, not the rockets, but Hamas.)
(2) Defining the tasks
Conquest of the entire Gaza Strip, and annihilation of all fighting forces and their supporters.
(3) Defining the strategic goal:
To turn Gaza into Jaffa, a flourishing Israeli city with a minimum number of hostile civilians.
(4) Defining war ethics: “Woe to the evildoer, and woe to his neighbor”
In light of these four points, Israel must do the following:
a) The IDF [Israeli army] shall designate certain open areas on the Sinai border, adjacent to the sea, in which the civilian population will be concentrated, far from the built-up areas that are used for launches and tunneling. In these areas, tent encampments will be established, until relevant emigration destinations are determined.
The supply of electricity and water to the formerly populated areas will be disconnected.
b) The formerly populated areas will be shelled with maximum fire power. The entire civilian and military infrastructure of Hamas, its means of communication and of logistics, will be destroyed entirely, down to their foundations.
c) The IDF will divide the Gaza Strip laterally and crosswise, significantly expand the corridors, occupy commanding positions, and exterminate nests of resistance, in the event that any should remain.
d) Israel will start searching for emigration destinations and quotas for the refugees from Gaza. Those who wish to emigrate will be given a generous economic support package, and will arrive at the receiving countries with considerable economic capabilities.
e) Those who insist on staying, if they can be proven to have no affiliation with Hamas, will be required to publicly sign a declaration of loyalty to Israel, and receive a blue ID card similar to that of the Arabs of East Jerusalem.
f) When the fighting will end, Israeli law will be extended to cover the entire Gaza Strip, the people evicted from the Gush Katif will be invited to return to their settlements, and the city of Gaza and its suburbs will be rebuilt as true Israeli touristic and commercial cities.
Mr. Prime Minister,
This is the a fateful hour of decision in the history of the State of Israel.
All metastases of our enemy, from Iran and Hizballah through ISIS and the Muslim Brotherhood, are rubbing their hands gleefully and preparing themselves for the next round.
I am warning that any outcome that is less than what I defined here means encouraging the continued offensive against Israel. Only when Hizballah will understand how we have dealt with Hamas in the south, it will refrain from launching its 100,000 missiles from the north.
I call on you to adopt the strategy proposed here.
I have no doubt that the entire Israeli people will stand to your right with its overwhelming majority, like myself – if only you will adopt it.
With high regards, respectfully,
Moshe Feiglin
Good luck with arresting Moshe Feiglin.
I hope you have enough room for arresting every single individual who calls for, or promotes, a one-state solution.
I hope you have enough room for arresting every single individual who calls for, or promotes, a one-state solution.
There's a difference between promoting a one-state solution and advocating genocide.
One state solution could work...one Palestine 
I'm afraid a one-state solution here will see a genocide, very similar to the inteded 1947 genocide. Regardless, I support the arrest of all those who advocate genocide. Do you?