Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
Yet what is happening and what it says coincide so much. Can't really be a co-incidence.
90% of Israelis won't be able to tell what Hallacha was.
if religious fundamentalist leader in saudi arabia, qatar or any other gulf country would take their religion serious, they wouldnt live in palaces and let their own people die. Their first, second and third priority is to stay in power. That makes them terrible people but it makes compromise possible. They would sell out on everything if they have to.
Why wouldn't the Palestinians accept that if they were interested in peace? Isn't this a small price to pay in order to avoid being caged, land thefts, blockades indiscriminate killing of women and kids, holocaust and so on at the hands of the new Nazis?
Accept the Jews' right for self determination and everything is rosey all of a sudden. Could it be that the glorious resistance battle for freedom is far more attractive than the actual hard daily routine of building a nation? International conferences are far more rewarding as far as the Palestinian leadership is concerned than providing running water and recycling sewage.
Well, looks like our book was the most accurate one after all.
When does it say the messiah is due?Good post. The Palestinian leaders are only interested in themselves. They do not care about the people, just like the rulers of other Arab countries only want to stay in power. It wouldn't be surprising if the Palestinian leaders do not want peace to be achieved ever, as that would mean building a country and responsibility and accountability for them. They'd rather it was like this.
Well, looks like our book was the most accurate one after all.
You won't believe the type of open public racism and hate speech and calling for murder I'm seeing from my Israeli neighbours. This is unprecedented.
And you can understand Palestinian objection to a Jewish state since it wouldn't exactly be organic self-determination. Its been forced by mass expulsions of Palestinians and mass immigration of anyone with a Jewish grandmother, thereby reversing a Palestinian majority throughout Israel over decades. The Jewish exclusivity would have been started by violence, and its being maintained by violence. Saddam did the same thing with Kirkuk and called it 'Arab self-determination'. And that's not even dwelving into the discrimination non-Jews would receive in a Jewish Israel.
Also, lets say hypothetically the Palestinians accept a Jewish Israel - you really think the Israeli leadership will in return concede occupation of the West Bank and declare their borders?
I'd argue that rhetoric is shared by the Israeli leadership. Why aspire to peace if the status quo allows you to expand your settlements, keep your borders undeclared while you remain diplomatically immune.
I just don't get how Israel is getting away with war crimes and Hamas who were elected by their own people to be terrorists.
I am just a simple guy with a simple mind and at the same time I don't get wound up by Israeli propaganda showing the world how innocent they are, Holyland Red your posts are so dire that you should be ashamed of yourself, because let’s face it, if you live where you are and go out freely etc with internet etc, how is it that you say are in war and have all these privileges, the reason I am not stating facts is that deep down one day you will end up regretting how much of a fool you was by not opening your eyes to the atrocities the Zionists are committing on a daily basis.
You can defend yourself with garbage your own country tells you etc, but wake up mate, here is a disturbing fact that when Zionist commits a crime in an area he'll get a little abuse etc. then goes home scot free the next morning if not the same night from the “Government Authorities” but when a Palestinian commits the same crime in the same place as the Zionist it is a Military punishment and they are released after a bad bashing and torturing and many more and is released on the condition of the General or whoever is the army officer in charge after 2 days, a week, fortnight, month or even many months based on the discretion of the army officer.
How can the ZIONIST really keep their peace talks (I will explain this part below), FAO all the people, I don’t visit the caf much as I am little too busy my with my businesses but I would like to converse with Holyland Red as when he talks it is just one sided, throughout my travels I meet people from all sides of the story and the conclusion is that when it comes to Israel it’s pathetic how they get away with committing so many violations on a daily basis. Not forget to mention that using the holocaust to justify there criminal takeover of Palestine.
I will make a few points on how the Israeli’s get away with a lot of things (for sources please just google it it is out there out in the open), did you know that Israeli government doesn’t allow UN inspectors to monitor/observe there nuclear?, the only country to get away with this and other countries aren’t, Israeli defence is within the top 5 in the whole world and have precision rocket repellers or whatever you call them which is accurate to 1 or 2 foot give or take and they still target schools, hospitals etc.
Now some new news, the Israeli attacks on a recent UN school with shells etc killing so many which is even hard for me to say as the numbers of deaths and casualty is beyond my humanitarian beliefs but when asked about this the Israeli defence personnel or whomever it was say that Hamas were firing rockets from there and then he changed the story to that Hamas kept there rockets etc there, after a swift and thorough inspection by the UN found no traces of these offences whatsoever.
It really does rattle my cage and to Rams and all the neutrals on here know this “PEACE TALKS WILL NEVER PREVAIL AND WILL NEVER HAPPEN” why because the Zionists will never let go of their “"privileges"”, IT IS ONLY THEN YOU CAN DISCUSS PEACE AND HAVE A REAL SHOT AT PEACE.
Let’s not forget that Hamas wants peace and but you have to be “FAIR”, the word I used is very simple fair is the only way to go about it, remember the White problem in Africa did they want to relinquish their privileges, no they didn’t but I can carry on adding similar comparisons (This was recent). Adding to this note, here is a simple fact, there were half a million Jews living in Palestine and 1.5m Palestinians living in Palestine, how can the UN (in 1947) at the time give the majority part of the land to the minute group and the minor land to the big group, they were unfairly treated back then, wouldn’t anyone in the right mind be angry and seek justice.
I mean think about it and putting the whole perspective situation in a nutshell, the Zionist come to my house and then take over my household, would I not fight for what is mine and if that is terrorism then I guess people need to wake up and wake up to reality.
Then you have these so called suicide bombers, before I elaborate on this topic, I should state that the Palestinians condemns such heinous crimes of suicidal attacks and it is not common thinking amongst the Palestinians, but think about a movie and there have been loads of movies where the Hero of the movies has a huge loss of family and the Hero goes off to kill the enemies who’ve killed all his family etc. he is regarded as a hero, now I am not saying it is right to kill innocents civilians but these Palestinians who can they kill, they have no fire power whatsoever and are extremely limited to cause any damage to the Israeli government, who has slaughtered his parents, his wife and kids and he has nothing to live for, did he do it for religious grounds or for his family, you guys decide what is injust and what is not, now remember no one is saying what these people did is right but you get the picture. And adding to this fact that if there were a lot of them people who do this out there I am sure they would of won the fight by now, because there is a lot of Palestinians out there.
I may sound a little biased because I am a Muslim, but I can assure you my intentions and concerns come from the humanitarian side of me. Now the constant bashing of Muslims vs Jews, this is ridiculous there is black sheep in every community, in every religion and in every nation so do not use a random story of the hate about the Jews from Muslims, I have ate and drank tea with many practising Jews and ex-Zionists to say that as a fellow Muslim who can sit down and converse with the likes of Jews then how can you say there is a widespread of racism, racism exits everywhere no matter where you go.
There are so many racist attacks on Muslims because of some so called individual group of nincompoops in Bradford and then the Lee Rigby incident etc. and I have witness a lot hatred/racism towards Muslims, I am sorry but these things happen it is part of life but doesn’t mean that all the English should be swept away in the same brush, so not all Muslims should be either, I conduct business with English people (I don’t like to use the word non-believers) and all other races etc. should I just stop my relationships with them because of some individuals who make it worse for us all. People wake up to the atrocities and look at the children of Gaza who are suffering as we speak, to all the people try to find ways to help the needy as being human it is all about having a heart and having a heart is to help another fellow human being.
We should all be grateful that we can argue and converse in such matters and not look over our shoulders whilst we are typing like internet warriors.
I would like to apologise to Holyland Red if you find my post offensive towards you.
I am just a simple guy with a simple mind and at the same time I don't get wound up by Israeli propaganda showing the world how innocent they are, Holyland Red your posts are so dire that you should be ashamed of yourself, because let’s face it, if you live where you are and go out freely etc with internet etc, how is it that you say are in war and have all these privileges, the reason I am not stating facts is that deep down one day you will end up regretting how much of a fool you was by not opening your eyes to the atrocities the Zionists are committing on a daily basis.
You can defend yourself with garbage your own country tells you etc, but wake up mate, here is a disturbing fact that when Zionist commits a crime in an area he'll get a little abuse etc. then goes home scot free the next morning if not the same night from the “Government Authorities” but when a Palestinian commits the same crime in the same place as the Zionist it is a Military punishment and they are released after a bad bashing and torturing and many more and is released on the condition of the General or whoever is the army officer in charge after 2 days, a week, fortnight, month or even many months based on the discretion of the army officer.
How can the ZIONIST really keep their peace talks (I will explain this part below), FAO all the people, I don’t visit the caf much as I am little too busy my with my businesses but I would like to converse with Holyland Red as when he talks it is just one sided, throughout my travels I meet people from all sides of the story and the conclusion is that when it comes to Israel it’s pathetic how they get away with committing so many violations on a daily basis. Not forget to mention that using the holocaust to justify there criminal takeover of Palestine.
I will make a few points on how the Israeli’s get away with a lot of things (for sources please just google it it is out there out in the open), did you know that Israeli government doesn’t allow UN inspectors to monitor/observe there nuclear?, the only country to get away with this and other countries aren’t, Israeli defence is within the top 5 in the whole world and have precision rocket repellers or whatever you call them which is accurate to 1 or 2 foot give or take and they still target schools, hospitals etc.
Now some new news, the Israeli attacks on a recent UN school with shells etc killing so many which is even hard for me to say as the numbers of deaths and casualty is beyond my humanitarian beliefs but when asked about this the Israeli defence personnel or whomever it was say that Hamas were firing rockets from there and then he changed the story to that Hamas kept there rockets etc there, after a swift and thorough inspection by the UN found no traces of these offences whatsoever.
It really does rattle my cage and to Rams and all the neutrals on here know this “PEACE TALKS WILL NEVER PREVAIL AND WILL NEVER HAPPEN” why because the Zionists will never let go of their “"privileges"”, IT IS ONLY THEN YOU CAN DISCUSS PEACE AND HAVE A REAL SHOT AT PEACE.
Let’s not forget that Hamas wants peace and but you have to be “FAIR”, the word I used is very simple fair is the only way to go about it, remember the White problem in Africa did they want to relinquish their privileges, no they didn’t but I can carry on adding similar comparisons (This was recent). Adding to this note, here is a simple fact, there were half a million Jews living in Palestine and 1.5m Palestinians living in Palestine, how can the UN (in 1947) at the time give the majority part of the land to the minute group and the minor land to the big group, they were unfairly treated back then, wouldn’t anyone in the right mind be angry and seek justice.
I mean think about it and putting the whole perspective situation in a nutshell, the Zionist come to my house and then take over my household, would I not fight for what is mine and if that is terrorism then I guess people need to wake up and wake up to reality.
Then you have these so called suicide bombers, before I elaborate on this topic, I should state that the Palestinians condemns such heinous crimes of suicidal attacks and it is not common thinking amongst the Palestinians, but think about a movie and there have been loads of movies where the Hero of the movies has a huge loss of family and the Hero goes off to kill the enemies who’ve killed all his family etc. he is regarded as a hero, now I am not saying it is right to kill innocents civilians but these Palestinians who can they kill, they have no fire power whatsoever and are extremely limited to cause any damage to the Israeli government, who has slaughtered his parents, his wife and kids and he has nothing to live for, did he do it for religious grounds or for his family, you guys decide what is injust and what is not, now remember no one is saying what these people did is right but you get the picture. And adding to this fact that if there were a lot of them people who do this out there I am sure they would of won the fight by now, because there is a lot of Palestinians out there.
I may sound a little biased because I am a Muslim, but I can assure you my intentions and concerns come from the humanitarian side of me. Now the constant bashing of Muslims vs Jews, this is ridiculous there is black sheep in every community, in every religion and in every nation so do not use a random story of the hate about the Jews from Muslims, I have ate and drank tea with many practising Jews and ex-Zionists to say that as a fellow Muslim who can sit down and converse with the likes of Jews then how can you say there is a widespread of racism, racism exits everywhere no matter where you go.
There are so many racist attacks on Muslims because of some so called individual group of nincompoops in Bradford and then the Lee Rigby incident etc. and I have witness a lot hatred/racism towards Muslims, I am sorry but these things happen it is part of life but doesn’t mean that all the English should be swept away in the same brush, so not all Muslims should be either, I conduct business with English people (I don’t like to use the word non-believers) and all other races etc. should I just stop my relationships with them because of some individuals who make it worse for us all. People wake up to the atrocities and look at the children of Gaza who are suffering as we speak, to all the people try to find ways to help the needy as being human it is all about having a heart and having a heart is to help another fellow human being.
We should all be grateful that we can argue and converse in such matters and not look over our shoulders whilst we are typing like internet warriors.
I would like to apologise to Holyland Red if you find my post offensive towards you.
Last edited:
How can you deny their nation a right for self-determination and then complain of racism? Can't you spot the irony? You're not any better than any of them.
Cut the history bollox, because we're going in circles with that one. You're not going to convince anyone that Jewish bond to Israel revolves around somebody's grandma. We've also discussed the discrimination of non-Jews in Israel. Those enjoy more civil rights than anywhere within a radius of 1000's of km from here, including the future Palestinian state.
The Israeli leadership would be replaced within a year of this acceptance if it didn't immediately engage in peace negotiations for a final agreement based on the 1967 borders.
Outrageous if true. Its one thing for right wing pundits to spout stuff like that, but quite another for a government.
True
@holyland red I work in the diamond district in NY. Majority of the businesses are owned by Jews so it's a major point for demonstrators. I've noticed a lot of Orthodox Jews demonstrating against the siege on Gaza. What's this exactly ? Here's a link to their website. They get a lot of hate from their own Jews. I want to understand the difference between them and other Jews. They say they're against Zionism. Can someone help me understand this.
www.nkusa.org
www.nkusa.org
What?
Our foreign office is led by a minister who is only interested in collecting votes, as he's losing them to a more extreme right wing party. I've no expectations from that lot.
The Satmar Hassidic Jews are the most staunch opponents of the State of Israel on religious grounds. Ultra-orthodox Jews oppose the State of Israel because their belief is that the Jews should only renew the Kingdom of Israel after the arrival of the messiah. Neturei Karta is another bunch of loons of that type. You can google for pics of these lot with Ahmedinejad, Arafat et al.
you may begin to understand when you stop hating.
HR, You remind me of the last jury member to vote "not guilty" in 12 Angry Men. I hope the signs of fatigue you're showing these last couple of days will lead to you trying to understand the other side.
They bombed another school today. I guess it was a mistake by well trained Israeli pilot.
Considering NATO trained pilots hit Sofia when targeting Belgrade I'm sure you are aware that mistakes do happen, and that using schools as rocket storage and launching sites is quite dangerous.
Nice excuse, works every time doesnt it.
Interesting thing is entrance to the school, full of people, was hit. I guess Hamas kept the rockets out in the open.
It's hilarious. It's like he actively seeks for reasons to defend the killing of children while never questioning how wrong it is to do so in the first place.
The hit was outside the school, wasn't it?
It was as I said in my post.
He maybe questions it and always finds a good excuse or a good story.
Cause when Israel comits war crimes its always for some good and rational reason.
So was the school targeted or not?
I doubt this qualifies as a war crime, but as an internet forum jury you seem to have already made up your mind.
Yeah, killing unarmed civilians in front of the school is just a mistake I reckon. Just like killing civilians in a market and similar.
I guess you think IDF never makes war crimes nor Israelis ever made them...
Murdering innocent children isn't a war crime?
Interesting US diplomacy cable posted by Wikileaks today revealed IDF soldiers confessions to abuses including use of the Palestinians as (direct quote) 'human shields' in 2009. Amazing to see the same organisation trot out this accusation again and again today.
2. (C) The allegations of criminal conduct by various organizations such as Human Rights Watch and the International Red Cross have been persistent since the conclusion of "Cast Lead" in January 2009. Individual Palestinians also testified to IDF abuses such as looting, beatings, vandalism of property and the use of the local population as human shields. But by far the strongest reverbration in Israel was that created by the Israeli organization "Breaking the Silence", which collected testimony from 26 unnamed IDF soldiers. All of the soldiers had been involved in Operation Cast Lead in the Gaza Strip, and testified to instances where Gazans were used as human shields, incendiary phosphorous shells were fired over civilian population areas, and other examples of excessive firepower that caused unnecessary fatalities and destruction of property.
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09TELAVIV1694_a.html#efmAn8Axu
2. (C) The allegations of criminal conduct by various organizations such as Human Rights Watch and the International Red Cross have been persistent since the conclusion of "Cast Lead" in January 2009. Individual Palestinians also testified to IDF abuses such as looting, beatings, vandalism of property and the use of the local population as human shields. But by far the strongest reverbration in Israel was that created by the Israeli organization "Breaking the Silence", which collected testimony from 26 unnamed IDF soldiers. All of the soldiers had been involved in Operation Cast Lead in the Gaza Strip, and testified to instances where Gazans were used as human shields, incendiary phosphorous shells were fired over civilian population areas, and other examples of excessive firepower that caused unnecessary fatalities and destruction of property.
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/09TELAVIV1694_a.html#efmAn8Axu
What do you reckon it was? Deliberate murder of civilians? Why not his the school, where hundreds of people probably seeked refuge?
It's allright to be sympathetic to the Palestinian cause, but that doesn't mean giving up on critical thought. Even if Israel was meanest nation on earth, killing innocent civilians is counter-productive as far as its political interests are concerned.
"Hamas used those children as human shields"
"They were alarmed to flee the area"
"They shouldnt have been at school or near school where Hamas keeps rockets."
And stuff.
So the fact that Hamas are using them as human shields means it's acceptable to kill them?
Interesting.
So if Israelis meant to murder civilians they should have hit the school full of civilians. So instead they hit the school yard full of civilians also.
So whats your explanation. Why did the plane bomb the school yard?
I'll get popcorn, cant wait for the answer.
as for bolded part:Yup, it isnt very nice, especially when you kill 1500 of them.
I just numbered the usual excuses.
One question, why are people using the word Zionist in a negative connotation to describe Israelis and Israeli action with regard to Palestine?
I thought a Zionist was simply someone who supports the creation of a Jewish homeland.
Note I'm not taking sides, just wondering why the word is now being associated with terrorism and murders when I always thought it was a peaceful movement.
I thought a Zionist was simply someone who supports the creation of a Jewish homeland.
Note I'm not taking sides, just wondering why the word is now being associated with terrorism and murders when I always thought it was a peaceful movement.
For all its efforts, the hostile UN human rights committee failed to come up with evidence for war crimes by the IDF in 2009.
War crimes by Hamas were pretty clear even back then. Those worried for the well being of the Gazans and for international law spent little effort in the last 5 years making sure these violations do not go unpunished.