You'll find very few people on here expressing outrage at Muslims killing their own. There the "Hamas are scum" slogan as a lip service followed by elaborate thorough condemnation of Israel's existence in the region and its methods for self defense.
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
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You'll find very few people on here expressing outrage at Muslims killing their own. There the "Hamas are scum" slogan as a lip service followed by elaborate thorough condemnation of Israel's existence in the region and its methods for self defense.
I know you would expect a greater cost to Israel. Why wouldn't you? We are not that eager to sacrifice our boys so you can get better images on TV while you're having lunch. Are you absolutely out of your mind? Would you go yourself to Gaza on a mission to disarm Hamas? Would you send there your loved ones, as someone suggested here before "to arrest them" ? And that is when your civilian population is being shot at with rockets?
I'm afraid that under these circumstances, and considering what's at stake here, Israelis don't care anymore about negative responses. I wouldn't hold it against you if you didn't pay attention to Dublin demonstrations if rockets were blown in the sky above your rooftop.
UN effort? Are you sure about that, even though Hamas is using UN compounds to store its rockets and launch them?
More equality than in Europe
Amnon Rubinstein (2008)
The gap between the rich and relatively advanced State of Israel and the lagging Arab world has much increased (the Arab states are at the bottom of the United Nations' Human Development Index, behind South American, Caribbean, and Southeast Asian countries) and is liable to be another obstacle in the future of relationships between Jews and Arabs in the Middle East. In Israel itself, however, despite the events of the last two years, equality between Jews and Muslims has grown in many aspects. Data from the health authorities, at least, attest to a better situation than in Western countries.
The data from the health authorities are most important because they measure not only the welfare of society but also its relations to the minorities living within it and because the right to health, which is one of the human rights, is actually the right to life and is of utmost importance. The UN, therefore, also views the data on infant mortality - perhaps the most important indicator for measuring public health - as the most important component of the Human Development Index. Infant mortality indexes are also considered the most reliable and can be compared internationally.
In Israel, there are gaps between the infant mortality rates among Jews and among Muslim Arabs. In 2001, the infant mortality rate among Arabs was 7.6 per thousand live births (Muslim Arabs, 8.2; Christian Arabs 2.6; Druze, 4.7), while among Jews it was 4.1. This is a substantial gap, which the Health Ministry explains is caused mainly by marriages between close relatives. It is worth noting, however, that the gaps in this area are shrinking at a truly impressive rate. During the years 1955-59, the infant mortality rate among Muslims was 60.6 per thousand - while among Jews it was 38.8 per thousand (take note, you who miss "the good old Israel"). The relationship between the two sets of figures may not have changed much, but the massive drop in infant mortality in the Muslim sector also brought this sector closer to Western rates.
An even more important fact is that the infant mortality gaps in Israel are lower than between Muslim minorities living in some Western countries and those of the local population. Researchers from the International Organization for Migration, based in Geneva, published data on these rates for the first time in 2000. In France, for example, the rate of stillbirths per thousand live births was 8 among the French and 13 among Arabs from North Africa. The mortality rates for babies up to one week old were 6 and 15 respectively. This means that the fetal and early infancy deaths among Arabs are more than twice that among the French majority.
In rich and developed France, the infant mortality rates among Arabs (most of whom speak the language of the country, and some of whom are already second, third and fourth generation natives of France) are not only much higher than in Israel - the gap between the minority and the majority there is considerably larger than in "racist Israel." These numbers speak for Israel more than dozens of anti-Semitic articles and anti-Israel resolutions.
In general the gaps in infant mortality rates between majorities and minorities - even when there is no national conflict between them - are higher even in the richest of countries. In Switzerland, the infant mortality rates per thousand for Swiss and Turks are 8.2 and 12.3, respectively. In Britain, 7.8 and 5.6 (English and Pakistanis). The situation is worst in the United States, where the rate for whites is 8.5 and for blacks, an astounding 21.3.
Against this background, it seems Israel's accomplishments are great, considering this is a country less wealthy than those mentioned above and one under conditions of severe national conflict between the majority and the minority. We must not suffice with this achievement. On the contrary, it proves that even under such conditions, Israel can reach full equality in every aspect of life between members of the Jewish majority and the national Arab minority.
Ive debunked this article before. This bloke doesnt understand numbers. You must be getting desperate if youre quoting this old bullshit.
That's because no one is defending Hamas or its actions here.
So by your opinion killing civilians is a way to treat with Hamas, even when they're not used as a shield or are unlucky just cause they're in a building where some HAMAS guy is or they keep weapons and rockets in it.
I love it how Israelis have a good explanation for every civilian death.. Even when its kids being killed while playing on the beach. I guess they kept rockets under the sand.
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The injustices the Palestinians faced didn't end with Israel pulling out of Gaza. The West Bank and East Jerusalem were still occupied, and the US was still vetoing everything at the UNSC.
For God's sake, man. I know it's an unrealistic expectation. All I'm saying is, can you not see why people respond negatively to the death of innocent people? Israel are at war, typically, in war, both sides are guilty in some way and from the outside both sides will garner ill will for their actions. Opposition to actions and expectations based on morality are commonplace in reaction to any event where people are dying. You must be able to see that opposition to the way Israel is handling the situation is not at all the same thing as opposition to Israel in general?
I was going to respond to all this until I saw your crazy prophetic Jesus ramblings. It all makes sense now.
You did not debunk anything. And the bloke knows about human rights more than you ever will: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnon_Rubinstein
I regret having to break the news, but your one-liners are not that impressive at all. This piece is here for others to make their judgement, and make up their minds what is bullshit and what isn't. Considering the ME conflict, the treatment of the Arab minority in Israel is not any worse than that of minorities in the West.
Needless to say that it's infinitely better than that in any Arab country.
My opinion that a building from which my family is targeted with rocket fire is a legitimate military target. And international law backs my opinion.
As long as you understand that mistakes happen in wars then yes, the beach incident was most likely a mistake.
But the Gaza withdrawal could have served as a test case for future withdrawals if the will for peace was there. Instead of constrcution, the old settlements were immediately turned into military training camps.
Try googling images for "Israel summer camp" and then "Gaza summer camp". If you or the rest of us care for Palestinian children you better start from there.
Well there have been a lot of those 'mistakes'. Or is it maybe some pilot who thinks to himself, fe.k it I'm gonna bomb some Palestinian kids, and who cares. Tuff luck killing children isnt backed by international law..
I see a nice correlation there though. I don't enjoy watching the horrible scenes from Gaza, I have to admit. However, You have to admit that I feel being targeted by rockets (among other threats) is even worse. Sorry to break the news, but we Israelis worry about our own more than about others. You'll understand that better when your country is attacked by enemies sworn to its destruction.
I understand the reaction to human suffering. I do not understand why its vocal only when Israel is involved.
- We haven't heard reports of deaths, we will check into it
- The people were killed, but by a faulty Palestinian rocket/bomb
- Ok we killed them, but they were terrorists
- Ok they were civilians, but they were being used as human shields
- Ok there were no fighters in the area, so it was our mistake. But we kill civilians by accident, they do it on purpose
- Ok we kill far more civilians than they do, but look at how terrible other countries are!
- Why are you still talking about Israel ? Are you some kind of anti-semite?
You are thretened by rockets yet you have that defense system which brings down 90 percent of them.
And in retaliation and in defense you kill about 1200 people, most of them civilians. Makes sense.
Isrealis caring only about their own and dont caring what the world thinks. That's nothing new really.
Sums it up.
And in retaliation and in defense you kill about 1200 people, most of them civilians. Makes sense.
Isrealis caring only about their own and dont caring what the world thinks. That's nothing new really.
Sums it up.
We both know pulling out of Gaza was not a reconcillatory step towards peace, it was in fact quite the contrary. Gaza posed little economical or religious significance so conceding it to the Palestinians would have been see as an excellent guise for peace, whereas really the intention was to hamper the establishment of a Palestinian state. The Israelis compensated by stepping up the settlement colonisation in the WB - I seem to recall the number of illegal settlements in the WB dramatically increasing following the withdrawawl.
Heck, Sharon's own aide admitted it:
"the significance of the disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process.... When you freeze that process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state and you prevent a discussion on the refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. Disengagement supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians." - Dov Weisglass
To paraphrase a friend
I used to be on the fence in the Israeli Palestine conflict... Till Israel blew up the fence and the school next to it.
I genuinely believe world opinion (outside the USA) is opening their eyes and Israel will find themselves isolated for decades because of their actions...
I used to be on the fence in the Israeli Palestine conflict... Till Israel blew up the fence and the school next to it.
I genuinely believe world opinion (outside the USA) is opening their eyes and Israel will find themselves isolated for decades because of their actions...
Thing is I doubt it. They surely deserve it though.
They blew up a power plant which give Gaza electricity. I guess there were rockets there. That story is good every time.
How many mistakes were there?
I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a person losing it and blowing up people. It certainly isn't an IDF policy or tactic. Knowing our pilots, and the real-time approval practice of selected targets I doubt it would happen to an IAF pilot. Can't completely rule it out though.
Wrong. We give Gaza electricity. I think we should stop that, btw. I would expect Croatia to supply them with electricity instead, while Israel is isolated for decades.
Many but dont bet on mainstream media to report it.
Maybe its not a tactic and maybe IAF pilots or IDF soldiers have the best practice in the world but it happens and there's no justification for it.
So no power plant was bombed? Somebody made the story up?
Dont know what do you mean with that 2nd sentence.
Of course I understand that Israel worry more about their own, as any nation would in a war. I don't think the reaction is only vocalised in opposition to Israel though. There is plenty of opposition to Hamas. The reaction is always more vocal against the more powerful side, naturally.
All I'm trying to point out is, that while there is obviously international ill will towards Israel for it's actions against Gaza, it's not anything specific to Israel or anything new. There is always ill will against warring nations because as humans we don't like to see other humans die. There seems to be a feeling that as soon as you say "I'm not happy that Israel have bombed kids" what you're actually saying is "I support Hamas and I don't think the Jews should be allowed to have a recognised state in the Levant". It's obviously not the same thing, at all.
Time-lapse shows air strikes destroying entire neighbourhood in an hour
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...stroying-entire-neighbourhood-in-an-hour.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...stroying-entire-neighbourhood-in-an-hour.html
That's a completely distorted perception because you take it personally when Israel is involved, hence you register the criticism more keenly.
From the outside looking in, people get outraged over all human suffering. Especially when it's as a result of an armed aggressor. Not often you see such a one-sided and inhumane war but even so, the western public and media have always made plenty of fuss about atrocities that don't involve Israel. It's just that you've probably been blissfully unaware.
Israel launched a deadly attack on a UN school housing refugees in Gaza despite repeated warnings that civilians were sheltering there, the UN has said.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28558433
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28558433
- Guess what your articles with big bold headlines is impressing even fewer people. Facts are Israel is killing thousands, imprisoning millions so no matter how many articles you posta nd how hard you try to paint yourselves the victims everyone knows Israel is the one in the wrong, Israel is the biggest evil
Proportionality???
List of ME death since Gaza withdrawal:
Gaza: Fatah–Hamas conflict: 600
Lebanon:Nahr al-Bared fighting 480
Lebanon:Hezbollah Lebanon conflict 105
Yemen: South Yemen Insurgency 2,100+
Yemen: Yemeni al-Qaeda crackdown 3,000+
Yemen: 2011 Yemeni revolution 2,000
Iran: Iranian election protests 72-150
Egypt: Egyptian Revolution of 2011 846
Egypt: Sinai insurgency 680
Egypt: Islamist unrest in Egypt (2013–present) 3,150
Bahrain:Bahraini uprising (2011–present) 100+
Iraq: Iraqi insurgency (post-U.S. withdrawal) 17,500-21,500
Syria: Syria Civil War 170,000-210,000
Syria: Syrian Civil War spillover in Lebanon 450
=245,161 casualties
Lebanon:Israel/Hezbollah 1,300
Gaza: Israel /Hamas 2008 1,440
Gaza: Israel /Hamas 2012 105
Gaza: Israel/Hamas 2014- 1,417-
=4,262 casualties
Actions in other areas does not justify killing thousands.
No idea why your strongest line of argument is as to how bad Hamas are. I don't think anyone is pro Hamas. And it doesn't justify what Israel is doing in most people's minds.
You can't justify Israel's actions by quoting deathcounts for other conflicts.
Also, why have you collectivised all those casualties from the middle east as if they were committed by one entity?
We're proud of our ability to defend our civilians. I'm not going to apologise for it. We do have the right to respond as if the next rocket would skip the defense sytem. It could well do.
If Hamas were allowed sit in on UN meetings people would be a little more outraged at what they are doing, but Hamas don't have an embassy in Dublin. The fact Israel does is starting to bother people. There is a very active petition to get the ambassador expelled. It won't happen but it's an idea with a lot of support.
I was lead to believe that Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Gazans. You don't blame Likud for civilian deaths in Gaza, do you?
And your brushing aside of the surrounding inter-Muslim massacres doesn't justify your moral high ground.
I certainly wouldn't trust LABOB-type journalist accounts.
I agree that there is no justification for deliberately blowing up people. As always, the Palestinians have been excused for that practice too on here not that long ago.
It's not only vocal when Israel is involved.
You don't inderstand because you don't want to understand.
Pople have thresholds and breaking points, Israel have approached a lot of people's. This is not sporadic human suffering. It appears to some to be prolonged persecution.
It is democratocally elected. But again you willfully miss the point.
This line of argument is a race to the bottom. Using the worst of behaviour to justify our actions.
245,161 casualties between Muslims. Are you saying that Muslim wars and it's casualties are perceived from a different threshold?...unless Israeli's are part of the equation?