They call these immigrants "infiltrators". Israel needs to take a serious look at itself. Like, you know, after it looks at itself for this war and that.
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
They call these immigrants "infiltrators". Israel needs to take a serious look at itself. Like, you know, after it looks at itself for this war and that.
But the formation of an Israeli state was not done out of colonialism/imperialism. Israel has been the Jewish homeland for thousands and thousand of years and it only makes sense that following the devastating effect of the second world war and the holocaust that Jewish refugees, finding no future elsewhere, would return there. Don't forget that Islam began in the 6th century (long long predated by Judaism and the Jewish people), and the influx of Jewish people into a now very hostile environment obviously required a resolution.
Whether it's popular to say or not, there has been hostility towards Jews and Christians anywhere Islam has spread to. To understand why you need to know a bit about Mohammad's life. Under Shariah law, Jews and Christians are always second class citizens. Given such strong divergence, a two state solution was really the only viable, humane option.
You can dispute the legitimacy of any state if you wind the clock back far enough.
Who is we and if your argument rests on a point when we agreed these principles, then if it can be shown that we didn't agree these principles your argument falls right? Also you would be for resetting all the borders changed since this point in history and only moving them to where they stand today by referendum within each historic border. It’s an idea Pete but I think a batshit crazy one.
Because that was directly after the First War and the dissolution of the Ottoman empire and the proper time to afford post-colonial justice. Palestine as the land between the Jordan and the Med was recognised since Roman times.
'We' is the world, Wilson, the League of Nations, the UN.
Of course it was, it was formed by the British/French as part of their colonial/post-colonial machinations (not that they expected it to go that far initially)..
The Palestinians of those times were not what we think of "ethnic Palestinians" today though, lol, and that stretch of land was called such as a Latinisation (after the Jewish revolt) of the older label Philistine. The ancient Philistines were an Indo European people and not ethnically Arabic with a completely different culture. So what is a Palestinian in an ethnic sense?
Those guys are all long gone.
But didn't the UN create Israel post 1918. Doesn't that show we never really agreed the principles because we would have applied them if we did? I don't want to sidetrack the thread into an abstract theoretical debate but it looks like you are trying very hard to start the clock in 1918 without any real reason. Are you sure you have thought this through because there were a lot of borders drawn in and post 1918 and not all of them have proved that inspiring? If we apply your principle even handedly it would probably cause a lot more trouble?
I don't know what that's all supposed to mean (lol), there were around 700,000 people living in Palestine in 1918 with about 75,000 Jews. Any equitable self-determination of those peoples does not lead to a Jewish state.
Post WWI and post Ottoman empire, it's not arbitrary.
You used the historicity of Palestine as a means of validating its existence today. I merely explained to you the origin of Palestine and how it has no connection to the Palestine of today, ethnically or theologically. Palestine was a latinisation of what was previously referred to as Philistine. The ancient Philistines (Palestinians when Latinised) were an ethnically Indo European people with a very Greek culture.
Even before the re-establishment of the state of Israel those living in the geographical location of Palestine were a mixture of Jews, Christians and Muslims. Those being called Palestinian today are ethnic Arabs and not the same thing at all.
"Islam is the problem in this conflict"
Goes on to use theology in his arguments. lol.
Goes on to use theology in his arguments. lol.
Your choice of this moment and place to start the clock is exactly arbitrary though because there is no reason to single out this time and place versus all the other times and places.
So for example.
Do you propose changing the borders in Europe back to those in 1918 or is it just the Ottoman Empire. Arbitrary picking of one Empire
The Second World War means nothing to border drawing but world war one does. Arbitrary picking of one war.
Just Palestine not the rest of the Ottoman Empires borders. Arbitrary picking of one area authority within the Ottoman Empire.
It is just a coincidence that all these decisions just happen to single out to Israel.
I don't get your point.
That both the main Abrahamic religions are equally bad and you're not allowed to criticize one if you follow the same nonsense yourself. It's hypocrisy at it's finest.
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Actually, I only recognise one Abrahamic faith, and that is the one that has its fulfilment in Jesus Christ. Modern day Judaism is not the Hebraic faith of Moses. There isn't even a temple anymore for that to be the case. Islam is a 6th century invention which contradicts the Bible, both old testament and new, leading to the excuse by Muslim revisionists that the Bible was corrupted from it's earlier, Islamic form (a form for which there is absolutely no historical evidence, only evidence to the contrary).
Even if you consider my faith equally false, it is not the same as Islam or Talmudic Judaism. It is simply dishonest to claim otherwise.
Isn't it interesting that Christianity finds atonement in one who was perfectly innocent, and even though he was tortured within an inch of his life and hung on a cross by wicked men, some of his final words were "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." A far cry from the prophet Muhammad's treatment of his enemies.
Oh no he didn't....
Yes he did derail the conversation by making erroneous comments both about my faith and my argumentation in this thread.
I am clearly the only one, though.
'At least 160 children died digging tunnels for Hamas'
http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-...hildren-died-digging-tunnels-for-Hamas-369138
Where were those human rights organisations when Hamas killed Palestinian kids for its tunnel indusrty?
Rockets found in UNRWA school, for third time
UN agency spokesperson condemns discovery, says munitions expert hasn’t yet reached Gaza facility
By Ilan Ben Zion July 30, 2014, 1:28 am 29
Read more: Rockets found in UNRWA school, for third time | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/rockets-found-in-unrwa-school-for-third-time/#ixzz38vcYUglX
Follow us: @timesofisrael on Twitter | timesofisrael on Facebook
Nice wording, btw. UN condemns the discovery.
The motherfeckers running Israel are the Israeli public. We don't hide from accountability for the actions of our democratically-elected administration. We'll leave that to the Palestinians and their sympathizers. The reasons surrounding Arab nations don't stand up to us is that they know that Islamic fundamentalism is every bit their problem as much as it is ours.
Still, no rockets are being fired at Egypt despite the Egyptian blockade.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4516595,00.html
Israel, the state of paradoxes, has a lot to be proud of
Op-ed: While Israel tops global surveys on negative contribution to the world, it is in fact a leader in contribution to humanity.
Published:
05.05.14, 18:42 / Israel Opinion
Sixty-six years ago, when 36 gentlemen and two ladies signed the Proclamation of Independence, they knew it wasn't going to be easy. They knew that the call for peace with the surrounding nations would be met with declarations of war and destructions. They were not sure that this newborn baby would last.
But there is one thing they definitely didn't know: That the State of Israel would lead the contribution to humanity and would also become the most hated country by that same humanity.
The State of Israel is characterized by paradoxes. For more than three years now, young scientists from Israel have been submitting applications to the European Research Council (ERC), and for more than three years now Israel has been in the first place, for its size, in receiving grants. This is the most important foundation of its kind in the world. How does that match Israeli schoolchildren's poor achievements in international exams? It doesn't. We are the state of paradoxes.
For almost a decade now, Israel has been leading, or has been among the leaders, in global surveys about negative contribution to the world. When we are not at the top, we are in the same boat with Iran, Pakistan and North Korea. Not exactly something to be proud of.
When we move from perception surveys to facts, the picture is reversed. Israel is one of the leading countries in the world in developing medications and irrigation and water purification systems (the first place in the world in sewage treatment), in patent applications (first place in the registration of patents of medical developments) and in scientific publications (second place in the world in the three most important journals).
These achievements are not only a cause for national pride. They are mainly a contribution to humanity.
I was thinking about the Palestinians solving this through peace (as many have suggested) but I can't think of another instance in history where something like this where the populations are completely separated has been solved with the oppressed faction using peace. How do the people of Gaza utilise civil disobedience?
We're not good mates with Turkey anymore, haven't you heard.
I do agree though that Israel let the Kurds down in the past. Better be cautious with putting your eggs in the Israeli basket.
My god (no pun intended)
And how is that relevant to this thread? Ran out of ammunition? Raoul, could you please lift the blockade?
British Mandate included Transjordan. The Arabs got a fair slice of the territory, far greater than that allocated to the Jews.
The genocide by Israel continues with the US firmly aligned with evil, staggering hypocrisy
Tell me who your friends are...
Hamas and North Korea in secret arms deal
Exclusive: Hamas has paid North Korea for missiles and communications equipment in arms deal worth hundreds of thousands of dollars
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...amas-and-North-Korea-in-secret-arms-deal.html
Oh the irony of an Israeli quipping "run out of ammunition?"
I suppose I'll just have to resort to throwing rocks, although this seems all too familiar, and I fear a disproportionate backlash...
I digress. This is extremely relevant seeing as though it highlights exactly how Israelis feel about others entering their state.
If you can't see the similarities of this and what is currently happening then you're as obtuse as everyone sees you to be.
Not only that but it highlights this myth that Israelis are welcoming and open to sharing the land peacefully with others, regardless of race and religion.
I found it amusing how you turn to Raoul for assistance in the matter, a true reflection of Israel asking big brother America to help justify their bullshit.
We know Hamas are scum HR, no one, I hope, is saying otherwise. The issue is the way Israel are going about wiping them out. Hamas, as cruel and inhumane as they are, are essentially an irritation for what is a relatively rich and well equipped democracy. The way the Israeli army is going about dealing with Hamas is what most object to.
Lies. As far as he's concerned, we're pro Hamas and anti-semites.
Don't even bother to run with that argument or you'll be branded as such.
Since 1918 and 1945 (note not arbitrary dates) , there have been many efforts to follow self-determination post-colonial occupation, the latest being the establishment of independent states in the former Yugoslavia.
Irritation? Are you sure that's what it is? Tunnels, thousands of rockets, suicide bombers, body snatching, kidnapping? What are you on about? What country in the world would have tolerated these in its back yard?
And that scum is the democratic choice of the Palestinian people. You are the one treating them as backwards savaged if you do not hold them accountable for their democratic choice like you would with any other nation.
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More equality than in Europe
Amnon Rubinstein (2008)
The gap between the rich and relatively advanced State of Israel and the lagging Arab world has much increased (the Arab states are at the bottom of the United Nations' Human Development Index, behind South American, Caribbean, and Southeast Asian countries) and is liable to be another obstacle in the future of relationships between Jews and Arabs in the Middle East. In Israel itself, however, despite the events of the last two years, equality between Jews and Muslims has grown in many aspects. Data from the health authorities, at least, attest to a better situation than in Western countries.
The data from the health authorities are most important because they measure not only the welfare of society but also its relations to the minorities living within it and because the right to health, which is one of the human rights, is actually the right to life and is of utmost importance. The UN, therefore, also views the data on infant mortality - perhaps the most important indicator for measuring public health - as the most important component of the Human Development Index. Infant mortality indexes are also considered the most reliable and can be compared internationally.
In Israel, there are gaps between the infant mortality rates among Jews and among Muslim Arabs. In 2001, the infant mortality rate among Arabs was 7.6 per thousand live births (Muslim Arabs, 8.2; Christian Arabs 2.6; Druze, 4.7), while among Jews it was 4.1. This is a substantial gap, which the Health Ministry explains is caused mainly by marriages between close relatives. It is worth noting, however, that the gaps in this area are shrinking at a truly impressive rate. During the years 1955-59, the infant mortality rate among Muslims was 60.6 per thousand - while among Jews it was 38.8 per thousand (take note, you who miss "the good old Israel"). The relationship between the two sets of figures may not have changed much, but the massive drop in infant mortality in the Muslim sector also brought this sector closer to Western rates.
An even more important fact is that the infant mortality gaps in Israel are lower than between Muslim minorities living in some Western countries and those of the local population. Researchers from the International Organization for Migration, based in Geneva, published data on these rates for the first time in 2000. In France, for example, the rate of stillbirths per thousand live births was 8 among the French and 13 among Arabs from North Africa. The mortality rates for babies up to one week old were 6 and 15 respectively. This means that the fetal and early infancy deaths among Arabs are more than twice that among the French majority.
In rich and developed France, the infant mortality rates among Arabs (most of whom speak the language of the country, and some of whom are already second, third and fourth generation natives of France) are not only much higher than in Israel - the gap between the minority and the majority there is considerably larger than in "racist Israel." These numbers speak for Israel more than dozens of anti-Semitic articles and anti-Israel resolutions.
In general the gaps in infant mortality rates between majorities and minorities - even when there is no national conflict between them - are higher even in the richest of countries. In Switzerland, the infant mortality rates per thousand for Swiss and Turks are 8.2 and 12.3, respectively. In Britain, 7.8 and 5.6 (English and Pakistanis). The situation is worst in the United States, where the rate for whites is 8.5 and for blacks, an astounding 21.3.
Against this background, it seems Israel's accomplishments are great, considering this is a country less wealthy than those mentioned above and one under conditions of severe national conflict between the majority and the minority. We must not suffice with this achievement. On the contrary, it proves that even under such conditions, Israel can reach full equality in every aspect of life between members of the Jewish majority and the national Arab minority.
So no one picking this up here?
What I mean is, we'd expect a more humane response at greater cost to Israel. From the outside, we would expect reliance on your anti-missile system (which seems to be excellent) coupled with some sort of pacifying action to move into Gaza and seize the weaponry Hamas are using. Obviously that's much more costly (money, lives, time) than just shelling the areas missiles come from, which is why no one wants to do it. With a collated UN effort I'm sure that's what we would see and what I think (short term) what is needed. I'm not particularly blaming Israel for not committing their soldiers to move in and face guerilla fighting within Gaza to locate and remove Hamas, it'd be a ugly slog, but surely you can see why there is opposition to the way you're currently responding? The reality is you are shelling schools and hospitals (yes, I know that's Hamas' choice as much as Israel's) rather than moving in. That will always garner negative responses from people. I know alternatives aren't entirely realistic or easily achievable but that does nothing to dissuade ill feeling.