The only way this will ever be resolved is for people who support Palestinian aspirations to become a galvanized voting block in the US - to where their political voice is able to influence Presidential elections.
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
The only way this will ever be resolved is for people who support Palestinian aspirations to become a galvanized voting block in the US - to where their political voice is able to influence Presidential elections.
I hear Putin is chums with Avigdor Lieberman, so I wouldn't expect much sympathy there. Plus he's getting hammered by sanctions at the moment.
It is largely true and most who object to Israel's actions are people who don't see Israel as a legitimate state.
While Israel sieges Gaza, the Israelis build an ever larger siege mentality with regard to the rest of the world. Israel know they're the rock in everyone's shoe. Constant criticism by the UN only strengthens their conviction.
Then a diplomatic solution is close to futile. The only hope is if popular opinion in the United States sways away from unconditional support, which would be reflected in the sentiments of their congressmen and senators.
Oppressive states tend to harbour a siege mentality in the face of near-unanimous condemnation. There's nothing new there.
Well based on my own, local, experience of a democracy facing a prolonged terrorist threat the politicians that negotiated peace made themselves far more popular than their ideologically entrenched predecessors.
You've had your colours nailed to the mast throughout this discussion, Kaos.
As have you to be fair, more so I'd argue.
Right.I agree, although I don't think this conflict is at that stage at the moment. Both sides are run by entrenched reactionaries who despise the other.
Are you seriously suggesting that lifting a blockade from a Hamas-controlled territory would decrease the chance of a confrontation?
Completely agree. And "tit for tat" retaliatory violence will only make things worse. Somebody has to rise above it and break the cycle. Surely the country best placed to do this is the most powerful democracy in the region?
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Yes, and there is of course nothing wrong with having a strong opinion. My point was to draw attention to the fact you're persisting with epithets when we all know what you think of Israel.
The simple fact is, reason isn't going to lead anywhere with you when you call Israel an oppressive state. I wonder what causes you to have such a lack of empathy for Israelis that you don't see the impossibility of being surrounded by sworn enemies and subject to constant missile and tunnel attacks while every defensive measure taken is turned into a PR campaign against you. You're telling me if missiles from a bordering country, with a known terrorist organisation in power, were killing people you knew and you yourself were being told by an international community to just live with the threat, wouldn't feel under siege yourself?
Come on, not only would you, you would more than likely have a deep hatred of Hamas and those who support them...
You know who else is under constant attack?
The way the civilised world should deal with the conflict is by politically isolating both Israel and Hamas/Gaza. Neither party seems to be capable of respecting international law, and quite frankly it has gone on for far too long. Both sides are an embarrassment to the civilised international community and should be excluded from it until they come to some sort of agreement.
Your chronology is all screwed up.
Which is exactly the problem. A reasonable degree to them is unreasonable for those in Gaza and vice versa. The entire point of striving for better is to not settle for one of their incredibly nationalist an entrenched ideologies, and find a middle ground.
feck it then, lets all just let people do whatever they want. No point even discussing it.
Like Raoul you seem to have conflated what's practically happening with your opinion of what should. Which is, again, pretty horrible and nihilistic from my perspective.
This is only a hop skip and a jump from "using the racist card" and is certainly trying to wave away criticism with an ad hom attack. Tu quoque yourself.
Mine stretches back further than Hamas coming into power.
I would like to see a peaceful situation - a two state solution where both sides can live together without fighting.
BBC
How would you defend your civilians if they were fired at from schools and hospitals?
Where the IDF suggest, as it knows well which areas are not going to be attacked at any given time.
Or that this line has never been used when antisemitic sentiments did underlie opposition to Israel.
Palestinians democratically elected Hamas immediately following Israel's pull out from Gaza, after all settlements there were erased and 8000 settlers were expelled from their homes.
Reading this thread makes me feel very stupid and inadequate. 
I can't speak for Raoul, but I've seen a constant pattern emerging in this thread, which is that we ask a series of questions of those criticising Israeli operations in Gaza and the same platitudes which won't move anyone an inch closer to stability come back every time. "Find a middle ground" is just another in a long list.
My point is also not the equivalent of saying just let everyone do what they want. I've outline three options the worldwide community can take. If it was my call for the rest of the world, I'd put my weight behind my option number two, which is aid Israel in whatever way possible in defeating Hamas. Nothing nihilistic about that.
The hop, skip and jump are fairly substantial motions I haven't taken. My observation is that that is indeed largely the case. You're free to disagree and those who think Israel to be a legitimate state with a right to defend herself from terrorist activity while simultaneously condemning each of Israel's operations in Gaza are free to step forward and prove me wrong.
Fair comparison. I think we have a contender for a honest broker.
This is actually a very good proposal. Why should Israel send its boys to disarm Hamas without risking Palestinian civilians? Any volunteering countries out there?
Ok. Hello. Nice to meet you. I think Israel is a legitimate state. What it's borders should be is another matter, and I've certainly seen many in this thread debate that. What I haven't seen much evidence of however is people who think she has "no right" at all to defend herself from terrorists, legitimate or not, so I don't think it's fair to conflate all those issues or instances into one soundbyte either.
The debate is surely on the nature and force of that "defence" and what it extends to? As far as pure "defence" goes, she's doing relatively well comparatively. Though certainly not as well as she's doing in "attack".
And round and round the mulberry bush we go.
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Considering what is being portrayed here as a tit-for-tat policy by Israel this system has saved hundreds of Palestinian lives.
And at no point have I defended them. But Hamas being bad doesn't make the Isreal government good.
Of course it is! Never has an "oppressed" people persued the annihilation of its oppressor. Prominent leaders went on record saying the Palestinians have rejected territorial agreements that should have put an end to the conflict.
I've maintained for years that the best the Palestinians could do, if peace was their objective, was to expose what you call "hot air". Acknowledge Israel's right to exist as a Jewish state and agree to a demilitarized Israel to make Israel's right wing politics irrelevant.
That's not what this source was intended to suggest. International peace-keeping is not an option.
Politicians say a lot of things, I suspect that if an agreement is ever reached it's going to turn a lot of promises into lies.
Rain of rockets. By people not interested in negotiating peace. No compromises available. You have no experience with that.
Israel-Gaza conflict - live | via @Telegraph http://fw.to/eP8EmfB
We do not have the luxury of "suspecting" Hamas stance will change. When you live here you have smaller margins of error compared to those available on internet debates.
Also, talk of the US being the key in all of this is incorrect. Israel is a self-contained nation, she makes her own arms (and they're some of the finest in the world) herself and is no longer reliant on US compliance.
I posted a link read it.
What's your point ? I am not defending Hamas here, do you expect Hamas to welcome any foreign/UN military force.
Civilians are dying now, what exactly are UN or the saviour of the world America is doing about it. UN is making woosy statements and America is backing Israel.
My point is a rethink of the suggestion Israel should sacrifice its young boys to disarm a terrorist entity using its civilians as human shields. We'd welcome other nations doing that using their superior moral standards.