Israeli - Palestinian Conflict

[Raoul]

So the solution is to keep the caged up, which doesn't even stop the rockets? Have you considered that Palestinians may be less sympathetic to Hamas if they weren't being caged up like animals?



Precisely. The Israelis do not want peace since it'll mean having to give up building settlements and declaring borders. The status quo suits them just fine.

How would you propose resolving this in a way that would be realistically acceptable to both sides ?

 

[Mockney]

They do hold the power, which is precisely why they aren't obliged to do things Hamas' way. The side that holds the power gets to set the agenda

What a horrible notion. Isn't the inherent abuse of this exactly why the international community exist? To prevent powerful nations running roughshod over lesser ones?

..and Hamas' political objectives will be set back further than they were before this latest flare up started. They're completely clutching at straws if they think this will end well for them.

Hamas's objectives also include getting sympathy from the international community, demonising Israel, and continuing to indocrinate the next generation of Palestinians (and other arabs) to their cause. All of which will have been a complete success.

 

[holyland red]

If that were true, he wouldn't be building settlements on their land.

What is "theirs" and what isn't can be negotiated as long as the two sides acknowledge each other's right to exist, and see an agreement as the end of their demands.

 

[Raoul]

If you can see that, and I can see that, then why do Hamas persist? I'm not sure they would had they the comfortable life I have.

They are obviously doing this as a political strategy to change the political situation in Gaza. Although its quite obvious that nothing will be achieved by conflict.

 

[Herman Van Rompuy]

Could've fooled me. What news are you watching?



Probably because few people are claiming Hamas are the good guys. Unlike Israel, who are supposedly fighting a completely unavoidable and proportional war against occupied schools and hospitals. When the capability, let alone the death toll is so lopsided, why should that be a surprise?



Where exactly is it you propose they go..?



Good thing anti-semitism has never been used to sweep aside opposition to Israeli policy.

Tu quoque.

Does the fact Israel is more capable to inflict damage to Gaza than Hamas are to Israel really say anything at all? A trained fighter is far more capable than I am of doing violence. That does not mean I should expect to punch him on the nose without him defending himself.

 

[IhabX7]

Why they still inside their houses after a phone call and a dummy shell hits the houses? They are really "martyrs" or they are forced to stay inside? Any man who keeps his children inside is a murder.

Back to the same bollocks. Blame everyone but the people who are leveling cities on the heads of civilians. We've been through the human shields myth.. go back in the thread and read, and use some logic and common sense if you can.

 

[moses]

Of course not. They are going after targets in an urban area. Which is different than say, indiscriminately firing rockets to deliberately kill as many civilians as possible.

What targets, you said they don't know the individuals which is the impediment to going in on foot and engaging with the aggressors?

If they were deliberately killing civilians it wouldn't be indiscriminate. One is slightly worse, but only slightly.

 

[Raoul]

What a horrible notion. Isn't the inherent abuse of this exactly why the international community exist? To prevent powerful nations running roughshod over lesser ones?



Hamas's objectives also include getting sympathy from the international community, demonising Israel, and continuing to indocrinate the next generation of Palestinians (and other arabs) to their cause. All of which will have been a complete success.

It may sound horrible, but it happens to be spot on. In terms of the the international community - the UN is ruled by the security council, and nothing will happen in the absence of unanimity on the Israel/Palestine issue. The power structures of global society are still run by its most powerful states, obviously cloaked by the thinly veiled facade that the UN is relevant.

 

[Raoul]

What targets, you said they don't know the individuals which is the impediment to going in on foot and engaging with the aggressors?

If they were deliberately killing civilians it wouldn't be indiscriminate. One is slightly worse, but only slightly.

Rockets, launchers, tunnels, etc

 

[Kaos]

How would you propose resolving this in a way that would be realistically acceptable to both sides ?

Diplomacy. It doesn't work with the US as an arbiter, its loyalties are so heavily inclined towards one side it just hampers the process. Their pathological vetoing of anything condemning Israel will only deter the Palestinians from diplomatic channels since they'll deem it futile.

The Israelis need to accept that the illegal settlement building must stop (not being used for land swaps) and that they can no longer occupy Palestinian territory in the WB and EJ, and that they must declare their borders. The question is, why would they do so if they know very well that they're diplomatically immune and that there'll be little repercussions to what they're currently doing. They must however accept that refusing to compromise on these illegalities will mean the Palestinians will continue to be hostile.

 

[IhabX7]

Much like Hamas, i honestly don't think the Israelis care at this point. Both sides are hellbent on achieving their political objectives - one to end the blockade, the other to stop the rockets - and given that one side holds all the power, there's only one way this is all going to end.

This whole thing is about the rockets? Do you really believe that Raoul?

 

[Mockney]

Tu quoque.

Does the fact Israel is more capable to inflict damage to Gaza than Hamas are to Israel really say anything at all? A trained fighter is far more capable than I am of doing violence. That does not mean I should expect to punch him on the nose without him defending himself.

Trained fighters are always taught to restrain themselves when combating civilians, so yes. You think power has no responsibility to check itself? That the bigger the arsenal, the more they should be allowed to get away with?

It may sound horrible, but it happens to be spot on. In terms of the the international community - the UN is ruled by the security council, and nothing will happen in the absence of unanimity on the Israel/Palestine issue. The power structures of global society are still run by its most powerful states, obviously cloaked by the thinly veiled facade that the UN is relevant.

However true a current practical situation is, it doesn't mean we should never strive for a fairer ideal. How would we have toppled the Caesars or overthrown the French Monarchs, or even broken free from the British Empire with such an absolutist outlook?

The fact you agree with it as an ideology is what's horrible. Not the fact it still holds practical sway.

Would either of you argue the same if Hamas held more power?

 

[Raoul]

Diplomacy. It doesn't work with the US as an arbiter, its loyalties are so heavily inclined towards one side it just hampers the process. Their pathological vetoing of anything condemning Israel will only deter the Palestinians from diplomatic channels since they'll deem it futile.

The Israelis need to accept that the illegal settlement building must stop (not being used for land swaps) and that they can no longer occupy Palestinian territory in the WB and EJ, and that they must declare their borders. The question is, why would they do so if they know very well that they're diplomatically immune and that there'll be little repercussions to what they're currently doing.

What would the Israelis get in return for your demands ?

 

[Raoul]

This whole thing is about the rockets? Do you really believe that Raoul?

It isn't from the Palestinian perspective, but certainly more so for Israelis.

 

[holyland red]

I'm still waiting for a plausible explanation for this. The whole thing is so unbelievably short-sighted. There's no rational reason to keep doing what they're doing, other than purely as a retaliation. I'd love to know what the electorate in Israel think. I guess it could be all about winning votes (these things usually are) but you do wonder if they're passing the point at which the reasonabe majority buy into their strategy.

I'd love to see the reaction of the electorate in other Western democracies under years-long constant rocket threat. I wonder who would be winning votes under such circumstances.

 

[Kaos]

What would the Israelis get in return for your demands ?

A chance for peace, far less hostility from the Palestinians, most of which I'd wager just want to lead ordinary lives.

Bear in mind some of these demands should not be compromises, they should be customary concessions considering their illegal nature. The Praetorian government of South Africa did not get anything 'in return', an end to apartheid was non-negotiable.

 

[moses]

What would the Israelis get in return for your demands ?

Beyond peace, what do they want? Surely everone can see that this power imbalance is not new and one side has suffered far more than the other. Restoring the rights the Palestinians have been deprived of shouldn't need sugar coating?

 

[Herman Van Rompuy]

Trained fighters are always taught to restrain themselves when combating civilians, so yes. You think power has no responsibility to check itself? That the bigger the arsenal, the more they should be allowed to get away with?

Israel is checking herself. Israel could wipe out the entire Gaza strip if she chose to. You seem to think Israel should restrain herself to what is an unreasonable degree to those in Israel.

The outside world's contribution to the situation is mere striving after wind. There are three options for the worldwide community, as far as I can see. Threaten Israel to desist from defending herself, aid Israel in whatever way possible in defeating Hamas, or simply step aside and let Israel get on with it, which is what inevitably happens.

Israel won't be told by the international community that she cannot defend herself, nor will she be told how tolerant of terrorists she should be.

 

[Sherzad]

They could send in their troops to arrest the people with rockets.

Why can't UN send their forces to deal with Hamas ? Civilians are dying rite now - it can't get worse then this if UN intervene. America and co seems to send their troops or use UN shield in other countries just on the name of 'war on terror' but they ignore what's happening in Gaza. I am just stating a fact here, if we turn around the sides and Hamas was using military against Israel - they will be called Muslim terrorist and what not.

 

[IhabX7]

It isn't from the Palestinian perspective, but certainly more so for Israelis.

So that Israelis can live in peace (not much has changed, except for the 10 minutes inconvenience caused by a resistance from the people they are oppressing) while Palestinians are imprisoned, depressed and malnourished.

Israel wants to make the occupation permanent. That's the purpose. Another West Bank. Broken to pieces that can't be glued together.

 

[moses]

Rockets, launchers, tunnels, etc

We are going in circles here. Surley if they know the whereabouts of these targets there is a better way than bombing them with such huge losses of the innocents?

 

[Raoul]

A chance for peace, far less hostility from the Palestinians, most of which I'd wager just want to lead ordinary lives.

Bear in mind some of these demands should not be compromises, they should be customary concessions considering their illegal nature. The Praetorian government of South Africa did not get anything 'in return', an end to apartheid was non-negotiable.

Your challenge is to overcome the fact that your laundry list of demands would likely be laughed off by the Israelis, in the absence of something tangible that they want - which probably involves a complete renunciation of violence, and a recognition of Israeli statehood from Hamas.

 

[Raoul]

We are going in circles here. Surley if they know the whereabouts of these targets there is a better way than bombing them with such huge losses of the innocents?

We may well reach that point in the future if they launch a full on ground invasion.

 

[holyland red]

Surely there were other, less radical, options to try and root out the Hamas operatives?

Surely you can come up with an alternative. I'm curious.

I know they might argue that this would put more Israeli soldiers in harms way but that's what comes with the territory when you join the army.

In Israel the army isn't a refuge for the unemployed. My kids will join the army when they are 18, because it will be their turn to make sure that our borders are safe. There is no reason in the world why we should sacrifice our young boys because our enemies lob rockets at our civilians hiding behind theirs.

It's this idea that they're willing to sacrifice a massive proportion of civilians vs combatants on the other side, in order to ensure little or no military losses of their own that is so abhorrent. They place so little value on the life of Palestinian civilians (with the demographics of Gaza ensuring that a lot of them are children). I'm amazed that is even acceptable by the majority of Israelis.

The proportions you're talking about are considerably better than those of any other Western army. And those didn't even fight defensive wars, or faced constant fire on their civilians.

 

[Raoul]

So that Israelis can live in peace (not much has changed, except for the 10 minutes inconvenience caused by a resistance from the people they are oppressing) while Palestinians are imprisoned, depressed and malnourished.

Israel wants to make the occupation permanent. That's the purpose. Another West Bank. Broken to pieces that can't be glued together.

I hope not!

 

[Kaos]

Your challenge is to overcome the fact that your laundry list of demands would likely be laughed off by the Israelis, in the absence of something tangible that they want - which probably involves a complete renunciation of violence, and a recognition of Israel statehood.

This is why the US being an arbiter is a problem. Israel laughs off these demands because it knows that it'll have no repercussions for maintaining the status quo. If it answers to the international community without the US bailing it out every time, then they'll at least have to consider taking them seriously.

 

[Kaos]

The outside world's contribution to the situation is mere striving after wind. There are three options for the worldwide community, as far as I can see. Threaten Israel to desist from defending herself, aid Israel in whatever way possible in defeating Hamas, or simply step aside and let Israel get on with it, which is what inevitably happens.

Or it could insist that it abides by international law?

 

[Silva]

Why can't UN send their forces to deal with Hamas ? Civilians are dying rite now - it can't get worse then this if UN intervene. America and co seems to send their troops or use UN shield in other countries just on the name of 'war on terror' but they ignore what's happening in Gaza. I am just stating a fact here, if we turn around the sides and Hamas was using military against Israel - they will be called Muslim terrorist and what not.

America will veto it.

 

[Raoul]

This is why the US being an arbiter is a problem. Israel laughs off these demands because it knows that it'll have no repercussions for maintaining the status quo. If it answers to the international community without the US bailing it out every time, then they'll at least have to consider taking them seriously.

Remember, your hypothetical diplomatic plan would require Israeli participation. They certainly wouldn't do so if they thought their allies were not a part of the discussions, nor would the US allow such a thing. So back to square one.

 

[Sherzad]

America will veto it.

Exactly, that's why I believe it's more then the 'rockets' that Israel are after.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

I'm still waiting for a plausible explanation for this. The whole thing is so unbelievably short-sighted. There's no rational reason to keep doing what they're doing, other than purely as a retaliation. I'd love to know what the electorate in Israel think. I guess it could be all about winning votes (these things usually are) but you do wonder if they're passing the point at which the reasonabe majority buy into their strategy.

I don't understand why there is such a myopic view about the internal politics at play here. People say Israel bombing the Palestinians makes them even more extremist. Everyone nods knowingly. Why then is it such a stretch to see Israelis moving right politically and backing the campaign given the way Israel is being attacked. If Israel gets the Palestinian regime it deserves then doesn't that work the other way too?


As long as the rockets keep being fired there will be an ever decreasing demand to care about Palestinian casualties within Israel.

 

[Herman Van Rompuy]

Or it could insist that it abides by international law?

Insist with what? Threats of sanctions? That comes under my first option of threatening Israel to desist from defending herself. You don't see it as self defense, and there's the problem. You don't see Israel's policy to destroy every single tunnel and counter battery every missile platform as self defense.

 

[Kaos]

Insist with what? Threats of sanctions? That comes under my first option of threatening Israel to desist from defending herself. You don't see it as self defense, and there's the problem. You don't see Israel's policy to destroy every single tunnel and counter battery every missile platform as self defense.

I'm looking at the broader picture. You think building settlements and refusing to declare borders is Israel protecting itself?

 

[Herman Van Rompuy]

I'm looking at the broader picture. You think building settlements and refusing to declare borders is Israel protecting itself?

She has to be able to mobilise her forces to defend her borders. The world wants a compromise of Israeli self defense and Israel come back with the same message every time: No.

 

[Kaos]

She has to be able to mobilise her forces to defend her borders. The world wants a compromise of Israeli self defense and Israel come back with the same message every time: No.

No it doesn't. You can't just whitewash every objection to Israeli aggression as "the world doesn't want us to defend ourselves". That 's just as tenuous as branding all critics of Israel as anti-Semites.

Nothing justifies building illegal settlements in land not belonging to you and refusing to declare borders. That's a trait of colonialist expansion, not self-defense.

 

[adexkola]

She has to be able to mobilise her forces to defend her borders. The world wants a compromise of Israeli self defense and Israel come back with the same message every time: No.

Will declaring borders compromise Israel's self defense?

 

[Kaos]

Remember, your hypothetical diplomatic plan would require Israeli participation. They certainly wouldn't do so if they thought their allies were not a part of the discussions, nor would the US allow such a thing. So back to square one.

Square one being the status quo. Like I said, the US holds the key to this.

 

[adexkola]

Square one being the status quo. Like I said, the US holds the key to this.

Don't hold your breath. Both parties in the US congredd support Israel unconditionally. They're trying to push through $225 million through the House, for bolstering Israel's defense system.

 

[Dante]

What is "theirs" and what isn't can be negotiated as long as the two sides acknowledge each other's right to exist, and see an agreement as the end of their demands.

So Israel acknowledges Palestine's right to exist but can claim everywhere and anywhere for itself?

"Sure, you can have your own land. You can keep the bits we (might) leave over"

The whole "right to exist" debate is such a distraction. Asking an oppressed people to acknowledge their oppressors is ridiculous. The only reason anybody cares about it is because they know it's a convenient and ever-present stick to beat the Palestinians with. Israelis have done well to shift the main issue to something so academic.

The Palestinians might not be saying the words but the reality on the ground is that Israel is ACTIVELY appropriating the very existence of Palestine. It's hot air from Netanyahu.

 

[adexkola]

What is Russia and China's stance on the conflict?