Nobody expects them to do nothing, though. There's a world of difference between doing nothing and bombing the shit out of civilians. Surely there were other, less radical, options to try and root out the Hamas operatives? It's not as though they don't have a fairly iron grip on Palestine to begin with. I know they might argue that this would put more Israeli soldiers in harms way but that's what comes with the territory when you join the army. It's this idea that they're willing to sacrifice a massive proportion of civilians vs combatants on the other side, in order to ensure little or no military losses of their own that is so abhorrent. They place so little value on the life of Palestinian civilians (with the demographics of Gaza ensuring that a lot of them are children). I'm amazed that is even acceptable by the majority of Israelis.
Israeli - Palestinian Conflict
- Thread starter Raoul
- Start date
Nobody expects them to do nothing, though. There's a world of difference between doing nothing and bombing the shit out of civilians. Surely there were other, less radical, options to try and root out the Hamas operatives? It's not as though they don't have a fairly iron grip on Palestine to begin with. I know they might argue that this would put more Israeli soldiers in harms way but that's what comes with the territory when you join the army. It's this idea that they're willing to sacrifice a massive proportion of civilians vs combatants on the other side, in order to ensure little or no military losses of their own that is so abhorrent. They place so little value on the life of Palestinian civilians (with the demographics of Gaza ensuring that a lot of them are children). I'm amazed that is even acceptable by the majority of Israelis.
The good old racist accusation. You can never come back from that one.
You can just call it distasteful and correct him on the details of Islamic martyrdom but no. The good ol' racism card is used instead.
You can just call it distasteful and correct him on the details of Islamic martyrdom but no. The good ol' racism card is used instead.
The grading of various -isms is part of what makes this whole debate so sad.
Anti-semetism is worse than anti-arabism, hatred of jews is worse than hatred of muslims (or at least it is from the point of view of debating on the internet). All this does is the devalue lives of the people being killed on the other side.
Dehumanising any wide ranging group of people should be called racism, even if it doesn't fit the historic definition. Hell, if we're going to go down that route, it would be impossible for Hamas to be anti-semetic.
He's a right wing nutjob. You can point as much out to him as you like but nothing will go in and he'll be back here in no time with even more ridiculous claims.
Raoul said:
The ONLY exit strategy/victory for Hamas is to have the International community force Israel to stop.
This needs more children to be killed.
Which means more rockets need to be fired at Israel.
So you think every single house bombed in Gaza was given a call? Even if they were how much time do you think they had to flee? And who's to say its even safer outside. Put your bigotry aside for a moment and actually think before you type.
Not all Palestinians are Muslim either.
If the end game is so inevitable, why doesn't Israel just stop now and avoid all those unnecessary child deaths?
Then let's not compound the problem by making more ridiculous claims.
"There is one whose rash words are like sword thrusts, but the tongue of the wise brings healing." Proverbs 12:18
Right. Well, have fun defending the murder of children.
Since no one expects them to do nothing, what other realistic military options are there other than to go after the targets that are firing at them - which are apparently being situated near civilian populations as a deliberate military strategy?
What would you do ?
Because the end-game has changed.
So killing children is the only way for Israel as well?
They could send in their troops to arrest the people with rockets.
"Do not answer a fool according to his folly..."
Don't, then.
Not realistic as they don't know which specific individuals are firing them. It would also probably entail a ground invasion and a re-occupation.
Which would be a full scale invasion of Gaza, I assume?
"Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he think himself wise in his own sight."
The problem with this conversation is the failure to move away from platitudes and attempts to oversimplify the entire thing.
Exactly. Basically just an upscaling of their previous approach. Demolishing entire neighbourhoods from long range is an incredibly indiscriminate and cowardly way to try and attack enemy combatants. Which is why Israel are rapidly eroding whatever sympathy they once had overseas.
I'm not sure it's tit for tat, considering the corrsponding death toll and damage. And the 'tit' has deemed Hamas beyond recognition, whereas the 'tat' seems to be frowned upon at best.
Also the idea that the only alternative to killing on the scale that Israel is, is doing nothing is utter nonsense. Like the idea that disagreeing with Israel is somehow soem degree of support for Hamas.
Yet they're apparently confident enough about their location to drop shells on where they think they are based.
Either that or they're knowingly bombing completely innocent people. Which is despicable.
The latest confrontation is completely tit for tat - rockets on the Israelis vs Israeli strikes on Gaza. It's completely irrelevant if one is disproportionate over the other, as each side is responding to the other.
Don't you think this makes their bombing even less justified than it already is?
They can see the launch sites and are probably hitting the locations, which given that the area is densely populated is obviously going to result in higher casualties. Hamas obviously knows this as well.
This idea of sending the troops in, I suspect, isn't a particularly novel one. Ironically, what you're asking for is a military occupation of Gaza, since that's exactly what it'd be and who knows how long it would go on for. Just imagine the nightmarish guerrilla warfare with civilians being used as human meatshields in close quarter fighting. How on earth would you expect Israel to bring an end to the conflict by putting their troops in Gaza?
They're bombing the vague areas where the missiles are coming from. Obviously it's not defensible since it's resulting in the deaths of many innocents but it's far away from moving in to secure the specific individuals responsible.
I'm not justifying the bombing - just making the point that it is unrealistic to not expect a retaliation. Therefore at least half of the blame should be apportioned to Hamas' campaign to get its own citizens murdered for political gain. The other half should rightfully go to the Israelis.
No, when there were two terrorist organisations in Northern Ireland killing each other in drive by shootings and urban ambuhes it was tit for tat. When the British army opened fire on civilians nobobody was brazen enough to call it tit for tat. If Israel wants to be judged alongside the nutjobs that are Hamas then maybe it could be tit for tat. But as its stands nothing about Hamas and Israel is comparable. Sometimes there can be no other way but the idea that a memeber state of the UN can continuously kill women and children and say it has no alternative really shocks me. The cornerstone of modern society and modern justice is surely the protection of the innocent?
Here's a novel thought - how about Israel works towards understanding what radicalises the Palestinians.
Surely by now they've noticed that bombing children isn't going to stop the rockets, perhaps lifting the siege and blockade (which has been long overdue) just might alleviate the situation.
Surely by now they've noticed that bombing children isn't going to stop the rockets, perhaps lifting the siege and blockade (which has been long overdue) just might alleviate the situation.
You can only blame people for what they're doing, and the blame for the current bombing of Gaza rests squarely on the shoulders of the people who ordered it and the soldiers obliging.
You can't complain about people oversimplifying everything when you do the same yourself."Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he think himself wise in his own sight."
The problem with this conversation is the failure to move away from platitudes and attempts to oversimplify the entire thing.
So you agree they are bombing the innocent indiscriminately? There can never be just cause for this surely?
Could've fooled me. What news are you watching?
Probably because few people are claiming Hamas are the good guys. Unlike Israel, who are supposedly fighting a completely unavoidable and proportional war against occupied schools and hospitals. When the capability, let alone the death toll is so lopsided, why should that be a surprise?
Where exactly is it you propose they go..?
Good thing anti-semitism has never been used to sweep aside opposition to Israeli policy.
No, Hamas build more tunnels and launch more missiles.
Maybe Israel needs radical Palestinians the way Hamas needs dead babies?
Much like Hamas, i honestly don't think the Israelis care at this point. Both sides are hellbent on achieving their political objectives - one to end the blockade, the other to stop the rockets - and given that one side holds all the power, there's only one way this is all going to end.
Of course not. They are going after targets in an urban area. Which is different than say, indiscriminately firing rockets to deliberately kill as many civilians as possible.
So the solution is to keep them caged up, which doesn't even stop the rockets? Have you considered that Palestinians may be less sympathetic to Hamas if they weren't being caged up like animals?
Precisely. The Israelis do not want peace since it'll mean having to give up building settlements and declaring borders. The status quo suits them just fine.
Its incredible, that people who are involved lose all common sense.
Hamas obtain acceptance, because Palestinias feel opressed. The more violance is used against the people in gaza, the more they´ll support radical terrorist like the hamas. Its a simple causal connection, that proved to be accurate in most parts of the middle east. Its so obvious and still most governments act exactly opposite. They still think that more violence will solve the problem.
Israel will gain 1-2 years of "peace" and after that its all the same just a bit worse. At this point of time more people are radicalised; more people are desperate; more people feel oppressed and are angry.
Israel will never achieve long lasting peace with their current policy.
Its not about making moral judgements. Its about understanding the functional logic, that is actually not that complicated.
Hamas obtain acceptance, because Palestinias feel opressed. The more violance is used against the people in gaza, the more they´ll support radical terrorist like the hamas. Its a simple causal connection, that proved to be accurate in most parts of the middle east. Its so obvious and still most governments act exactly opposite. They still think that more violence will solve the problem.
Israel will gain 1-2 years of "peace" and after that its all the same just a bit worse. At this point of time more people are radicalised; more people are desperate; more people feel oppressed and are angry.
Israel will never achieve long lasting peace with their current policy.
Its not about making moral judgements. Its about understanding the functional logic, that is actually not that complicated.
If you can see that, and I can see that, then why do Hamas persist? I'm not sure they would had they the comfortable life I have.