No need, Israel have already taken responsibility for it. Now you just have to decide if it's ok to level an entire refugee camp, because a Hamas leader was maybe hiding there.
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No need, Israel have already taken responsibility for it. Now you just have to decide if it's ok to level an entire refugee camp, because a Hamas leader was maybe hiding there.
They’re waiting until the IDF release a Scooby Doo-esque “confession” from a dude claiming to be from Hamas saying it was a failed missile launch. This is before some sound experts chime in differentiating between an Israeli bomb and a rocket fired by a Hamas militant.
It’s okay if people seeking refuge, including women and children die because they’re killing Hamas militants who might possibly be hiding amongst all those innocent civilians.
Mash'al and Haniya are pulling strings in Qatar. Sinwar and Abu Khaled (Mohammad Deif) are mostly running things on the strip. I don't think there was any logic behind the attack other than to kill Israelis, get hostages, then spring Palestinian prisoners out of jail and try to somehow leverage that into political capital. Predictably, it didn't work and only wound up securiticizing the Israelis into believing they had to get rid of Hamas once and for all.
Underground weapons storage that blew up due to a misfired faulty hamas rocket.
Glad we agree. The pre-meditated and pre-determined decisions to bomb civilian women and children by the Israeli government (of which they acknowledge as being justified in their pursuit of Hamas) qualifies as Barbarianism.
Yes, but you would have to prove that this was their intent, which wouldn't be easy; whereas in the Hamas case, its quite easy given the extensive video they took alongside all the planning documents the brought along.
This is pure evil, no other words for it. My mind simply cannot process that someone would choose to defend this.
Again we agree. In Israel's case its their Prime Minister saying there are no innocent civilians in Gaza, their deliberate choice to bomb areas full of civilians and their support of settler terrorists amongst other things. So again I agree with you, there's intent on both sides to harm and kill civilians.
Unfortunately, that wouldn't be sufficient to prove what you're suggesting. Common Israeli talking points like "Many Gazans support Hamas and are therefore not innocent", although odious and inappropriate, don't speak to specific targeting actions on the part of the Israelis. If on the other hand you could prove the IDF had a specific RoE to target civilians as opposed to members of Hamas, then that would be a good case for what you're describing.
There’s no way the US, UK, NATO can defend this….surely. What Israel is doing to Gaza is the same as what Russia is doing to the Ukraine.
It’s very tricky.
I think most people would agree peace is not possible with hamas in power in Gaza.
They also don’t play by the conventional rules of war. They will hide in hospitals, they will deliberately place refugee camps on top of their critical infrastructure.
Can somebody explain how hamas is removed without war, and if it does require war, how do you minimise civilians when they literally use them as human shields?
I also don’t think removing Hamas is worth what we are seeing at the moment. A more humane approach would have been to do nothing after October 7 as hard (impossible?) as that would have been.
I think most people would agree peace is not possible with hamas in power in Gaza.
They also don’t play by the conventional rules of war. They will hide in hospitals, they will deliberately place refugee camps on top of their critical infrastructure.
Can somebody explain how hamas is removed without war, and if it does require war, how do you minimise civilians when they literally use them as human shields?
I also don’t think removing Hamas is worth what we are seeing at the moment. A more humane approach would have been to do nothing after October 7 as hard (impossible?) as that would have been.
Startling statistic a few moments ago on the BBC News channel - more children have now been killed in this conflict alone than all of the world's conflicts in the past five years combined.
Na he got the response he deserved and I don't think anyone was unnecessarily harsh, most came back with logical and moral objections. I personally know refugees who have had a lot worse than someone in his situation and they would never justify child murder under any circumstance. You can't go around saying things like that and not expect a response.
Children can be potential terrorists when they grow up.
how disgusting this world is
They don't need to.
a more humane approach would be to end the fecking occupation
Wow. Bombing a refugee camp. So sad.
Can Western leaders still remain silent or mealy mouthed?
Can Western leaders still remain silent or mealy mouthed?
They can express deep concern and worry. While asking Israel if they want more money or weapons.
"They have a right to defend themselves" against the refugee camps they created.
They will parrot the same script 'Israel has the right to defend itself' followed by 'they must also abide by international law', but the catch is no one has the right to say they are breaking any law.
The IDF spokespeople trot out the same rhetoric time and again: "We're doing our best to minimise civilian casualties."
If this is them trying their best, imagine what their worst looks like.
If this is them trying their best, imagine what their worst looks like.
Well stats do show that 80% of Hamas fighters were orphaned when young, so I suppose they got rid of them before they had the chance to join....
If they are, I’m lost. I don’t know what to say.
I get the feeling more and more just from speaking to people about this in general that Israel are completely losing the plot/narrative. If I were them I'd worry how their traditional support in the West is eroding away day by day. The news might come up with the usual stuff, but I honestly think there is a shift in how people think about this. Completely anecdotal, of course.
It really isn't. Bombing refugee camps to take out one person is a Very Bad Thing.
I don't think there is. What politicians care about more than anything is to stay in power. They wouldn't be making these statements in support of war if the data showed them it will lose them significant votes. What it does tell you is that humanity as a species is doomed.
Yeah, and I would also say that outside of the US this is largely going to be a fringe issue among a large part of the electorates. Especially because there isn't a lot of difference between what the mainstream parties are saying.
You know people, and I certainly don't doubt their suffering, but you didn't personally experience it. You simply don't know how you would've reacted if you were in his shoes. Unless I'm wrong, you've never been pushed to your human limits, they vary from individual to individual and express themselves differently. That's something way beyond any ability to understand or rationalize unless you directly lived it.
That's why I personally feel that some posters were being unfair towards him, when he simply was being honest about his current feelings, as someone directly concerned, and in no way taking the moral high ground. There's been some truly awful, borderline sociopathic posters in this thread, but he's not one of them.
I have a massive problem with Hamas, its methods and absolute disregard for Israeli and Palestinian lives. I have a massive problem with the Israeli government and its policies. I have a massive problem with the IDF and their way of conducting war, handling the Occupied Territories and absolute disregard for Palestinian lives. I have a massive problem with the settlers in the West Bank and their terrorist behaviour.
However I don't have one with someone like Amir.
I agree, they do this based on the belief that it will help they stay in power, but I think there is a significant lag in these things. Don't get me wrong, they'll switch if they see the room change and find ways to reinvent themselves and their actions to stay in power, but I do belive more and more this is losing issue. They're basically trying to fool all the people all the time into thinking Israel is, witin the current political/moral paragidm, a natural ally within the liberal order, which is starting to look absurd even for people who don't pay much attention.
I don't disagree we're doomed, though.
I can’t think of examples of foreign policy influencing voting opinion except where the country itself was directly involved (e.g. LBJ and Nixon with Vietnam, Thatcher with the Falklands, Blair in 2005). Voters decide on domestic issues unless it‘s their own sons, brothers and husbands coming home in body bags.
That's fine and upto you. But doesn't give you the right to tell others how to react to such a morally bankrupt position.
What Amir is expressing in his posts is hardly unfathomable. There is nothing strange or novel about his perspective. It's just standard conservative arguments.
None of this is unusual. The same thing happened after 9/11. Plenty of U.S. liberals set aside their principles, temporarily or permanently, in order to advocate for wars and 'civilizational clash', because they were scared after the attacks and because of the pressure around them. They were wrong.
Why should they defend it when they supporting it and having their backs
Someone that says:
" I want security and I don't care what it takes. "
Is difficult to gang up.
If you consider gang up opposing his justifications of one of the worst war crimes of this century. What do you pretend? "Carry on, lad, we support you just because you have a dissonant voice"? To me is like asking not to "gang up" to someone that justifies gangrape because someone raped first because they want the former rapist to stop (That assuming that history starts October 7th)
When you have USA's unconditional support, you can do whatever you want.
Sad, but probably more accurate than not.
Totally agree with this. I disagree with @Amir on this topic but they are at least providing a different view point on this thread (and a local one) and is honest about their views.
It's concerning and sad that someone as liberal as they are has their headspace where it is now but it is what it is I guess.
I prefer their posts infinitely, which actually add context, to the idiots who come on here and post barely concealed islamophobic/ anti Arab bile.