Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

lot of spin on twitter at least, but it seems this is to a large extent the deal Hamas was offering before the rafah offensive? most convincing counter-point was that this one says withdrawal from "populated" areas.
 
Frosty said:
No information, no. I just don't have your positivity. Considering the US is not a party to the ICC, and it is an election year... I think Biden will use it as a photo-op.
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I personally think that Biden hates the living shit out of Netanyahu who thoroughly took the piss during the past eigth months and can't wait for Trump to be elected.

Inviting him to the Congress is a major political statement with far-reaching ramifications, especially on the international level. I find it to be utterly short-sighted and Biden really doesn't need it. He dragged himself through the mud more than enough with his unconditional support to Israel.

That's not gaining political points, it's officially endorsing the double standards policy, publicly humiliating yourself to the eyes of the world and definitely looking for a complete break with the global south.
 
4bars said:
He would not post qll that without israel being on board. Seems that the madness finally will end

Biden will be able to recover some voters. Israel will spin it as a job done and is somewhat what US wants

And the most important, deaths will stop
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I don't see how Netanyahu spins this and keeps his government extreme right partners - which is what he cares about the most.

Biden, wisely, made his announcement on Friday evening Israeli time, when the extreme right have to keep quiet because of the Sabbath. So let's see if Netanyahu tries to sabotage it during the day tomorrow - before his partners wake up in the evening.
 
Amir said:
I don't see how Netanyahu spins this and keeps his government extreme right partners - which is what he cares about the most.

Biden, wisely, made his announcement on Friday evening Israeli time, when the extreme right have to keep quiet because of the Sabbath. So let's see if Netanyahu tries to sabotage it during the day tomorrow - before his partners wake up in the evening.
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Looking forward to it.

Great post.
 
berbatrick said:
lot of spin on twitter at least, but it seems this is to a large extent the deal Hamas was offering before the rafah offensive? most convincing counter-point was that this one says withdrawal from "populated" areas.
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My guess is Hamas has already agreed to it. Netanyahu on the other hand is far less likely.
 
Marwan Bishara on Al Jazeera now arguing that this is Netanyahu attempting to strike a deal in order so he can appear before Congress as a pragmatist and peace-maker.
 
RedTiger said:
Of course they'll let him address congress! How old are you again?
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Old enough.

And I firmly believe that letting that fascist butcher adress the Congress will be an indelible stain on the US with major consequences in the future. You just don't understand the level of hatred the US has generated across the world these last eight months.
 
Bosnian_fan said:
Why would Palestinian side, whoever represents them, accept anything that doesn't lead to their state?

Any sort of ceasfire not leading to the Palestinian state means the end of Palestine as the idea.
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I'll be surprised if the suggested cease fire is accepted by Israel.

If it is, take is as a win as it will stop the killing and suffering in Gaza. It's not enough, but if you try to get Israel to agree to a Palestenian State right now... The war will go on forever.
 
Amir said:
I'll be surprised if the suggested cease fire is accepted by Israel.

If it is, take is as a win as it will stop the killing and suffering in Gaza. It's not enough, but if you try to get Israel to agree to a Palestenian State right now... The war will go on forever.
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Just to clarify, of course you are right and of course everything is better than people dying.

However, cynism is speaking out of me, what Biden has proposed will not change much longterm. I don't trust him or anyone else to see that the conflict itself never ends unless there is Palestine, or there is no Palestinians at all.
 
Bosnian_fan said:
Just to clarify, of course you are right and of course everything is better than people dying.

However, cynism is speaking out of me, what Biden has proposed will not change much longterm. I don't trust him or anyone else to see that the conflict itself never ends unless there is Palestine, or there is no Palestinians at all.
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I agree, but there's a limit to what you can achieve under the current circumstances - which include a wacky Israeli government and an Israeli public that is still licking its wounds from October 7, feeling very sorry for itself, and includes a large portion of people who will go bananas if the Palestenians get their own state right now. And those are the supporters of the current government.

Like I've written - I don't even see Israel agreeing to THIS ceasefire, let alone a deal that will include a Palestenian state.
 
Amir said:
I'll be surprised if the suggested cease fire is accepted by Israel.

If it is, take is as a win as it will stop the killing and suffering in Gaza. It's not enough, but if you try to get Israel to agree to a Palestenian State right now... The war will go on forever.
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I agree with this take.

I see the risk for the Palestinians in this deal, but this war should stop. This should be the first step.
 
VorZakone said:
Biden has now tweeted the 3-phase proposal.

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Let's go through point by point:

Phase 1:
- a ceasefire, which in effect means Israel will continue/resume its activity pre Oct 7 - which means Palestinians killed or held in indefinite captivity at a slower rate than they are now. Any Palestinian who resists being summarily executed or imprisoned by Israeli forces will be cast as having broken the ceasefire.
- Withdrawal of Israeli forces from populated areas...which don't exist because Israel has demolished every bit of infrastructure in populated areas
- Palestinian civilians can return to the rubble of their homes
- A surge in humanitarian aid...which should and would already be the case except that Israel keeps killing those attempting to provide aid. All this actually means is that Israel will probably allow more supplies in.

Phase 2:
- A permanent end to hostilities, meaning that Israel will be free to continue settlement building, detention of Palestinians for crimes such as breathing and existing, but if a Palestinian throws a rock in response they'll be accused of breaking the peace
- Exchange for the release of remaining live hostages... Exchange of what? Exchange means each side gives something. Are Israel about to release the thousands of Palestinians they hold in captivity? If you desire to see how hilariously disingenuous the US is, note that they don't even specific or mention what Israel might be exchanging in return (because they can't acknowledge that Israel do anything wrong)
- Israeli forces withdraw from Gaza (but still get to sit on their wall around Gaza and snipe people for fun)

Phase 3:
- Major reconstruction plan for Gaza...don't make me laugh. The only construction will be of natural resources extraction infrastructure off the coast, which Palestinians will never see a dime of.
- Final remains of hostages are returned to their families. Whatever, that one is probably what it says on the tin.

This plan serves to do nothing but return the situation to that which existed pre-Oct 7, just with a hundred thousand extra dead Palestinians. This is not a plan for permanent peace or anything approaching it, it is a plan for Israel to slow it's rate of genocide to pre Oct 7 levels so that the world (and Biden's potential voter base) stops paying attention.
 
Amir said:
I agree, but there's a limit to what you can achieve under the current circumstances - which include a wacky Israeli government and an Israeli public that is still licking its wounds from October 7, feeling very sorry for itself, and includes a large portion of people who will go bananas if the Palestenians get their own state right now. And those are the supporters of the current government.

Like I've written - I don't even see Israel agreeing to THIS ceasefire, let alone a deal that will include a Palestenian state.
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Palestinians has been licking their wounds since 1948. It's not only about the Israelis. Some people would rather die standing than to live begging on their knees in humiliation.
 
Bebe said:
Let's go through point by point:

Phase 1:
- a ceasefire, which in effect means Israel will continue/resume its activity pre Oct 7 - which means Palestinians killed or held in indefinite captivity at a slower rate than they are now. Any Palestinian who resists being summarily executed or imprisoned by Israeli forces will be cast as having broken the ceasefire.
- Withdrawal of Israeli forces from populated areas...which don't exist because Israel has demolished every bit of infrastructure in populated areas
- Palestinian civilians can return to the rubble of their homes
- A surge in humanitarian aid...which should and would already be the case except that Israel keeps killing those attempting to provide aid. All this actually means is that Israel will probably allow more supplies in.

Phase 2:
- A permanent end to hostilities, meaning that Israel will be free to continue settlement building, detention of Palestinians for crimes such as breathing and existing, but if a Palestinian throws a rock in response they'll be accused of breaking the peace
- Exchange for the release of remaining live hostages... Exchange of what? Exchange means each side gives something. Are Israel about to release the thousands of Palestinians they hold in captivity? If you desire to see how hilariously disingenuous the US is, note that they don't even specific or mention what Israel might be exchanging in return (because they can't acknowledge that Israel do anything wrong)
- Israeli forces withdraw from Gaza (but still get to sit on their wall around Gaza and snipe people for fun)

Phase 3:
- Major reconstruction plan for Gaza...don't make me laugh. The only construction will be of natural resources extraction infrastructure off the coast, which Palestinians will never see a dime of.
- Final remains of hostages are returned to their families. Whatever, that one is probably what it says on the tin.

This plan serves to do nothing but return the situation to that which existed pre-Oct 7, just with a hundred thousand extra dead Palestinians. This is not a plan for permanent peace or anything approaching it, it is a plan for Israel to slow it's rate of genocide to pre Oct 7 levels so that the world (and Biden's potential voter base) stops paying attention.
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One small detail: Biden said Israel and Hamas will negotiate phase 2 once phase 1 is complete and the terms for phase 3 will be negotiated once phase 2 is complete. Israel can easily dump this after phase 1.
 
RedTiger said:
One small detail: Biden said Israel and Hamas will negotiate phase 2 once phase 1 is complete and the terms for phase 3 will be negotiated once phase 2 is complete. Israel can easily dump this after phase 1.
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Interesting, cheers. That's a rather terrifying prospect as it could lead to Palestinians returning to areas that Israel will flatten again after they accuse Hamas of backing out of the deal pre-phase 2 (or, again, any Palestinian looks at an IDF soldier in the wrong way).
 
It does seem like the best move politically by Biden in the last 8 months but it also smells of bullshit and propaganda that may well lead to nothing.
 
ManUtd1999 said:
I agree with this take.

I see the risk for the Palestinians in this deal, but this war should stop. This should be the first step.
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I don't and that's the wrong step.

This so-called "plan" is a PR stunt by Biden to gain election points and pull out a thorn in his side, with absolutely no vision for the future of Gaza and the West Bank.

It has as much holes as a swiss cheese and puts absolutely no constraints or limits on Israel. That's exactly the line of thinking in the last three decades that led us to the current situation. That's the return to the old status quo at best, with further annexions in the Gaza strip for "security reasons". At worst it's the complete integration of Gaza into Greater Israel in the long-term.

As long as there's no clear political intentions about the aftermath and the future of a Palestinian State, there's no reason for the Palestinians to accept any kind of deal, especially when enginereed by this US administration and the most extremist Israeli government in the country's history. Once the world's attention turns away from Gaza, sighing in relief and patting themselves on the back about having ended the war, Israel will use it to tighten the noose around Gaza's neck whilst stepping on the gas pedal to extend its illegal settlements in the West Bank.

It's now or never. No more vague promises and talks of "trust the process".
 
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Bebe said:
- Exchange for the release of remaining live hostages... Exchange of what? Exchange means each side gives something. Are Israel about to release the thousands of Palestinians they hold in captivity? If you desire to see how hilariously disingenuous the US is, note that they don't even specific or mention what Israel might be exchanging in return (because they can't acknowledge that Israel do anything wrong)
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On this, I’m almost sure I’ve just watched Biden specifically mention an exchange of Palestinian prisoners.
 
Amir said:
I don't see how Netanyahu spins this and keeps his government extreme right partners - which is what he cares about the most.

Biden, wisely, made his announcement on Friday evening Israeli time, when the extreme right have to keep quiet because of the Sabbath. So let's see if Netanyahu tries to sabotage it during the day tomorrow - before his partners wake up in the evening.
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Interesting. I would think that Biden would not say all that if Netanyahu would not be on board. Because if he rebuff him and Biden keep supporting Israel, Biden would be making the US even more Israel bitch of what it had been to the date

So if Netanyahu rejects it, I don't see any other way that Biden will start taking action to stop the genocide as he sees it as a real risk on his election (not that he cares about palestinians)
 
Bebe said:
Cheers - it would be nice of him to do so in the tweet but that's at least something.



As horrid as the highlighted bit is, the last sentence of Obama's post might be worse.
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His administration has been one of the most pro-Israel ever.

His abstention in 2016 at the UNSC whilst he was on his way out should never distract anyone from this fact.
 
That_Bloke said:
I don't and that's the wrong step.

This so-called "plan" is a PR stunt by Biden to gain election points and pull out a thorn in his side, with absolutely no vision for the future of Gaza and the West Bank.

It has as much holes as a swiss cheese and puts absolutely no constraints or limits on Israel. That's exactly the line of thinking in the last three decades that led us to the current situation. That's the return to the old status quo at best, with further annexions in the Gaza strip for "security reasons". At worst it's the complete integration of Gaza into Greater Israel in the long-term.

As long as there's no clear political intentions about the aftermath and the future of a Palestinian State, there's no reason for the Palestinians to accept any kind of deal, especially when enginereed by this US administration and the most extremist Israeli government in the country's history. Once the world's attention turns away from Gaza, sighing in relief and patting themselves on the back about ending the war, Israel will use it to tighten the noose around Gaza's neck whilst stepping on the gas pedal for the extension of illegal settlements in the West Bank.

It's now or never. No more vague promises and talks of "trust the process".
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I totally understand this point of view, and I really can’t dismiss it. The reality is that there is risk.

But people are dying, of relentless bombardment and of hunger. They need a break, food and shelter. Without this deal, this campaign will continue. It’s easy for people like you and me to say “don’t give up”, but those who live this hill can’t keep on going forever.
 
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ManUtd1999 said:
I totally understand this point of view, and I really can’t dismiss it. The reality is that there is risk.

But people are dying, of relentless bombardment and of hunger. They need a break, food and shelter. Without this deal, this campaign will continue. It’s easy for people like you and me to say “don’t give up”, but those will live this hill can’t keep on going forever.
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I absolutely get what you're saying but I don't think you can even begin to understand what the Palestinians went through the last 75 years.

It's not easy for me at all. My father grew up during a war of independence and my grandfathers fought for France in WWII. One of them joined the FLN (the movement for the independence of Algeria) shortly after WWII and fought against the very same side he risked his life for a couple of years before. I grew up and got personally involved in a +10 years long civil war. I've experienced first-hand islamist terrorism before it was mainstream and saw a couple of my own friends and family members get killed. I think I have a pretty good idea of what war means and the suffering it entails, although I'd never dream to compare what I've experienced to what the Palestinians have endured for decades.

@2cents made a reference to the Phillipeville massacre in 1955 during the Algeria war of independence against France, on this very thread a few days after 10/7. It stayed with me to this day. The more I think about it, the more I'm sincerely astonished by how accurate and contemporary his comparison was. Having personally solid first hand accounts of what life was like during the French occupation, I can't help myself but drawing parallels to what's happening in the Palestinian occupied territories. And to be honest, France wasn't nearly as brutal as Israel is.

People have to understand that it's a 75 years old colonial war against an occupying power that will never recognize anything but brute force. It proved it time and again. Israel in its current iteration has no interest in a peaceful outcome leading to a two state solution. Why would it? Why should it? It holds all the cards and is unconditionally backed to the hilt by the most powerful country in human history. Every time it's been confronted with the choice between security or land, Israel went for land, without fail.

This half-backed "truce/cease-fire/peace deal" leads to nowhere and is doomed to fail in the long-term. All it achieves is setting the conditions for the next 10/7, which will be met by the same amount of violence we've seen in the past eight months without ever guarantying security or peace for either side.

Now is not the time for half-measures. There's a historic opportunity to finally close an awful chapter in human history. It's the last colonial war that needs closure for the sake of both peoples. Right here, right now.

Biden, his administration of serial liars and their half-assed plan can go feck themselves.
 
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4bars said:
So if Netanyahu rejects it, I don't see any other way that Biden will start taking action to stop the genocide as he sees it as a real risk on his election (not that he cares about palestinians)
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Netanyahu doesn't have to reject it, if he has ways to sabotage it in other ways. He's done it before, for example by suggesting that Israel will keep hounding Hamas's leaders no matter what just when a previous deal seemed possible.
 
Giggsyking said:
Palestinians has been licking their wounds since 1948. It's not only about the Israelis. Some people would rather die standing than to live begging on their knees in humiliation.
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I don't disagree. Just pointing out why the idea that israelis will agree to a Palestenian State now of all times is far fetched.
 
Still think it's a decent first step towards ending the escalation and suffering, and a first step was always going to be insufficient to both parties' desires. Without an agreed ceasefire, this just goes on forever.
 
JPRouve said:
Shouldn't he have highlighted the latest news? That proposition could be israeli and come for opposition's leaders?
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If it were an Israeli proposal without Netanyahu's approval, it would likely come from the Mossad.

I don't really see it as an Israeli proposal, and it doesn't differ much from what Hamas agreed to in May or wanted in February. Biden's speech was great for muddying the waters to the state of negotiations for the last few months.
 
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