Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
- Start date
"these are the Zionists. These ones are good to make pregnant"
But resistance!
Luckily Ireland and Norway has their backs. This is what they support, this is what Ivy League students support.
Not necessarily. It’s a really difficult and nuanced issue within Germany, that’s not easily put into a few sentences I’m afraid. So take my words with a pinch of salt, please.
Due to our history, there is certainly a feeling of responsibility towards Israel and the Jewish people in general. Which I believe is for the absolute most part justified and a good thing. Israeli statehood is seen through this lens around here. And I agree with the broader sentiment, that one of the lessons from wwII has to be the necessity of Israeli statehood.
That makes it difficult to discuss certain things. Because due to the heightened sensitivity, antisemitic people use a lot of dogwhistling to get their points across. And they usually start by mentioning mostly legitimate criticism, for example on the way Israel was founded, the quasi apartheid there and so on. And on that they usually continue with the stuff that’s actually antisemitic. Which is something many people in our society and in politics are quite aware of.
So there have always been instances, where legit criticism served quite abhorrent purposes. And while it’s good that so many people are aware of that, this makes it very tough to voice criticism in a constructive manner.
When it comes to Palestine, there are even more issues at play. There is a general distrust regarding this topic towards left activists, who could otherwise shape the debate more constructively. Mostly because during the time of domestic terrorism in Germany, in the 60s, 70s and 80s, radical left wing groups committed quite a few terror attacks, sometimes in the name of Palestine or at least while sympathising with their cause. That has caused quite a lot of skepticism from the political middle in Germany towards these causes. They remember the supporters of Palestine as radical and violent.
Than there were instances with right wing terror groups, for example the Wehrsportgruppe Hoffmann, where flat out Nazis enjoyed refuge and military training by Palestinian groups or their associates and put this training into practice by murdering Jews in Germany. Which also leads to the middle and some people from the left being even more skeptical towards the Palestinian cause.
So it’s not just wwII that’s an issue here. Many people grew up in Germany with the horrors of the Holocaust present everywhere and then saw all these radical terror groups committing atrocities for this very cause. And the people who grew up like this, who grew up with the history of the Holocaust, terror attacks, conspiracy theories and so on, aren’t that open for criticism of Israel.
Basically the generation of my grandparents and the boomers grew up like that.
And if you’re a politician being critical of Israel, you risk that bad faith actors use that criticism in order to paint you as some sort of radical antisemite. It’s easy to score points this way, especially close to elections.
Add all this and more to the generally rising Islamophobia in Germany, actual issues with communities that are mostly Islamic and open to radical views and voices, actually targeted by Erdogan and the likes and you get a completely poisoned debate. It doesn’t help that many groups protesting this just cause, do this without distancing themselves from Hamas and the likes.
So basically, right wing groups usually don’t protest for the Palestinian cause. If they did, they would not find acceptance. Left groups are also seen with skepticism in regards to this topic and so are Islamic groups. And the middle in Germany doesn’t do protest, usually. So Palestinian support is always seen with the most skepticism there could be. Sadly.
This "if you support palestine you support hamas" must the dumbest argument in the history of dumb arguments. You are just trolling at this point, If I was a mod you'd be out of this thread.
Hamas isn’t Palestine, why can you not grasp that?
It's quite telling that your partner in crime immediately used this opportunity to attack Ireland and Norway as Hamas supporters, and that the Twitter account you linked to has a post seemingly attacking Cate Blachett for possibly showing support to the Palestinian cause on a red carpet somewhere. Just deeply unserious.
What you can't seem to fathom is that everyone condemns Hamas. Their actions on October 7th were barbaric and reprehensible. But Israel has now matched that horror and then some in the seven months since then by slaughtering thousands indiscriminately and imposing a famine on 2 million people that are decidedly not Hamas. People that post in this thread, or protest in the street, and countries that want to recognize Palestine as a state generally want the bloodshed to stop. But you and other Zionists are so myopic that you can only see that as an attack on you. It's really quite sad.
Even though it's been thoroughly exposed and extremely idiotic, it's a deliberate Israeli supporter tactic to try and equate all Palestinians with Khamas.
There is a serious lack of perspective in thinking that, on the 22nd of May 2024, you can still say "hey remember October 7th 2023" and that's going to sway anyone.
Baffling. You'd think months of civilian casualties would hinder Hama's ability to recruit...
Tone it down. It's getting tiresome. You are not engaging in honest debate. I haven't seen a SINGLE poster here supporting Hamas and their atrocities. BTW do you support the IDF targeting of civilians, women and children? Do you support the dispicable behavior of Netanyahu, Ben Gvir and Smotrich? Do you endorse the actions of the settlers in the West Bank? Do you think that's what the civilized world stands for?
Full statement from Simon Harris:
———————
Good morning, all,
Last month I stood on these same steps with Prime Minister Sánchez of Spain when we agreed that the point of recognising the State of Palestine was coming closer.
That point has now arrived.
Today, Ireland, Norway and Spain are announcing that we are recognising the State of Palestine.
Each of us will now undertake whatever national steps are necessary to give effect to that decision.
In the lead up to today’s announcement, I have spoken to a number of other Leaders, and I am confident that further countries will join us in taking this important step in coming weeks.
This is an historic and an important day for Ireland and for Palestine.
On the 21st of January 1919 Ireland asked the world to recognise our right to be an independent State.
Our ‘Message to the Free Nations of the World’ was a plea for international recognition of our independence, emphasising our distinct national identity, our historical struggle, and our right to self-determination and justice.
Today we use the same language to support the recognition of Palestine as a State.
We do so because we ‘believe in freedom and justice as the fundamental principles of international law’, and because we believe that ‘permanent peace’ can only be secured ‘upon the basis of the free will of a free people’.
Taking our place on the world stage – and being recognised by others as having the right to be there – was a matter of the highest importance for the founders of our State.
From our history, we know what it means.
Recognition is an act of powerful political and symbolic value.
It is an expression of our view that Palestine holds and should be able to vindicate the full rights of a state – including self-determination, self-governance, territorial integrity and security – as well as recognising Palestine’s own obligations under international law.
It is a message to those in Palestine who advocate and work for a future of peace and democracy, that we fully respect your aspirations to be living freely, in control of your own affairs and under your own leadership.
On 10 May, 143 out of 193 UN Member States – 80% of those present and voting – voted to determine that the State of Palestine is qualified for membership in the United Nations in accordance with the Charter of the UN.
Our step today, taken with Norway and Spain, is further recognition of the legitimate right to statehood.
It is a statement of unequivocal support for a two-State solution - the only credible path to peace and security for Israel, for Palestine and for their peoples.
We have previously said that recognition is a step that we would ideally have taken as part of a process towards that goal.
However, we are three decades after the Oslo process and perhaps further than ever from a just, sustainable and comprehensive peace settlement.
Our decision to recognise Palestine should not have to wait indefinitely, especially when it is the right thing to do.
It is a decision being taken on its merits.
But we cannot ignore the fact that we are taking it as Palestinians in Gaza are enduring the most appalling suffering, hardship and starvation. A humanitarian catastrophe, unimaginable to most of us and unconscionable to all, is unfolding in real time.
Can anyone justify children going to sleep at night not knowing if they will wake up?
Today we are taking a significant political step. There will be reaction and interpretations of its implications but let us not lose sight of this fundamental truth:
Children are innocent. The children of Israel. The children of Palestine. They deserve peace.
It is long past time for a ceasefire, for the unconditional release of hostages and for unhindered access for humanitarian aid.
There should be no further military incursion into Rafah.
There should be no more Hamas or Hezbollah rockets fired at Israel.
Civilians, on all sides, must be protected under International Humanitarian Law.
Violence and hatred can only ever be a dead end.
The only pathway to peace is political.
The people of Palestine deserve a future filled with hope, a future defined by success instead of suffering. A future at peace.
The people of Israel deserve the exact same thing.
To the people of Israel, I say today: Ireland is resolute and unequivocal in fully recognising the State of Israel and Israel’s right to exist securely and in peace with its neighbours.
Let me be clear that Ireland condemns the barbaric massacre carried out by Hamas on October 7th last. Civilians attacked and murdered. Hostages taken in the most brutal and terrifying of circumstances, including a young Israeli-Irish child.
We call again for all hostages to be immediately returned to the arms of their loved ones.
Let me also be clear that Hamas is not the Palestinian people.
Today’s decision to recognise Palestine is taken to help create a peaceful future.
A two-state solution is the only way out of the generational cycles of violence, retaliation and resentment, where so many wrongs can never make a right.
Just as Ireland's recognition as a state eventually led to the establishment of our peaceful Republic, we believe that Palestinian statehood will contribute to peace and to reconciliation in the Middle East.
A peace that honours the legitimate aspirations of all people in the region to live with respect, justice, security and dignity, free from violence or the threat of violence.
Today, moving in lock step with our European colleagues, we seek to be bearers of hope.
We want to reaffirm our belief that peace is possible, that justice is achievable, and that the recognition of both States – Palestine and Israel - is the cornerstone upon which that peace must be built.
So today, we are saying that we recognise the state of Israel and its right to exist in peace and security within internationally agreed borders.
We equally recognise the state of Palestine and its right to exist in peace and security within internationally agreed borders.
Recognising the statehood of Palestine sends a message that there is a viable alternative to the nihilism of Hamas.
Hamas has nothing to offer but pain and suffering to Israelis and Palestinians alike.
There is also no future in the extremist version of Zionism that fuels settler violence and illegal appropriation of land in the West Bank.
I would like to thank our international partners, in Norway and Spain and in other like-minded countries, for their close and continued cooperation. I thank the Tánaiste for his continued work on this matter.
I look forward to continuing to work with them on our shared objective of delivering long overdue peace and prosperity to the people of Israel and Palestine and the wider Middle East.
Ireland will always stand with all those ready to walk a political pathway to peace and we will do everything in our power to help to bring it about.
That is what today’s decision is about.
We take it to offer hope and encouragement to the people of Palestine in one of their darkest hours.
We in Ireland see you, we recognise you, we respect you.
We will continue to work so that you and your children and your children’s children can have the better future you deserve and so that one day Palestinian children and Israeli children can live side by side in peace and security.
———————
Good morning, all,
Last month I stood on these same steps with Prime Minister Sánchez of Spain when we agreed that the point of recognising the State of Palestine was coming closer.
That point has now arrived.
Today, Ireland, Norway and Spain are announcing that we are recognising the State of Palestine.
Each of us will now undertake whatever national steps are necessary to give effect to that decision.
In the lead up to today’s announcement, I have spoken to a number of other Leaders, and I am confident that further countries will join us in taking this important step in coming weeks.
This is an historic and an important day for Ireland and for Palestine.
On the 21st of January 1919 Ireland asked the world to recognise our right to be an independent State.
Our ‘Message to the Free Nations of the World’ was a plea for international recognition of our independence, emphasising our distinct national identity, our historical struggle, and our right to self-determination and justice.
Today we use the same language to support the recognition of Palestine as a State.
We do so because we ‘believe in freedom and justice as the fundamental principles of international law’, and because we believe that ‘permanent peace’ can only be secured ‘upon the basis of the free will of a free people’.
Taking our place on the world stage – and being recognised by others as having the right to be there – was a matter of the highest importance for the founders of our State.
From our history, we know what it means.
Recognition is an act of powerful political and symbolic value.
It is an expression of our view that Palestine holds and should be able to vindicate the full rights of a state – including self-determination, self-governance, territorial integrity and security – as well as recognising Palestine’s own obligations under international law.
It is a message to those in Palestine who advocate and work for a future of peace and democracy, that we fully respect your aspirations to be living freely, in control of your own affairs and under your own leadership.
On 10 May, 143 out of 193 UN Member States – 80% of those present and voting – voted to determine that the State of Palestine is qualified for membership in the United Nations in accordance with the Charter of the UN.
Our step today, taken with Norway and Spain, is further recognition of the legitimate right to statehood.
It is a statement of unequivocal support for a two-State solution - the only credible path to peace and security for Israel, for Palestine and for their peoples.
We have previously said that recognition is a step that we would ideally have taken as part of a process towards that goal.
However, we are three decades after the Oslo process and perhaps further than ever from a just, sustainable and comprehensive peace settlement.
Our decision to recognise Palestine should not have to wait indefinitely, especially when it is the right thing to do.
It is a decision being taken on its merits.
But we cannot ignore the fact that we are taking it as Palestinians in Gaza are enduring the most appalling suffering, hardship and starvation. A humanitarian catastrophe, unimaginable to most of us and unconscionable to all, is unfolding in real time.
Can anyone justify children going to sleep at night not knowing if they will wake up?
Today we are taking a significant political step. There will be reaction and interpretations of its implications but let us not lose sight of this fundamental truth:
Children are innocent. The children of Israel. The children of Palestine. They deserve peace.
It is long past time for a ceasefire, for the unconditional release of hostages and for unhindered access for humanitarian aid.
There should be no further military incursion into Rafah.
There should be no more Hamas or Hezbollah rockets fired at Israel.
Civilians, on all sides, must be protected under International Humanitarian Law.
Violence and hatred can only ever be a dead end.
The only pathway to peace is political.
The people of Palestine deserve a future filled with hope, a future defined by success instead of suffering. A future at peace.
The people of Israel deserve the exact same thing.
To the people of Israel, I say today: Ireland is resolute and unequivocal in fully recognising the State of Israel and Israel’s right to exist securely and in peace with its neighbours.
Let me be clear that Ireland condemns the barbaric massacre carried out by Hamas on October 7th last. Civilians attacked and murdered. Hostages taken in the most brutal and terrifying of circumstances, including a young Israeli-Irish child.
We call again for all hostages to be immediately returned to the arms of their loved ones.
Let me also be clear that Hamas is not the Palestinian people.
Today’s decision to recognise Palestine is taken to help create a peaceful future.
A two-state solution is the only way out of the generational cycles of violence, retaliation and resentment, where so many wrongs can never make a right.
Just as Ireland's recognition as a state eventually led to the establishment of our peaceful Republic, we believe that Palestinian statehood will contribute to peace and to reconciliation in the Middle East.
A peace that honours the legitimate aspirations of all people in the region to live with respect, justice, security and dignity, free from violence or the threat of violence.
Today, moving in lock step with our European colleagues, we seek to be bearers of hope.
We want to reaffirm our belief that peace is possible, that justice is achievable, and that the recognition of both States – Palestine and Israel - is the cornerstone upon which that peace must be built.
So today, we are saying that we recognise the state of Israel and its right to exist in peace and security within internationally agreed borders.
We equally recognise the state of Palestine and its right to exist in peace and security within internationally agreed borders.
Recognising the statehood of Palestine sends a message that there is a viable alternative to the nihilism of Hamas.
Hamas has nothing to offer but pain and suffering to Israelis and Palestinians alike.
There is also no future in the extremist version of Zionism that fuels settler violence and illegal appropriation of land in the West Bank.
I would like to thank our international partners, in Norway and Spain and in other like-minded countries, for their close and continued cooperation. I thank the Tánaiste for his continued work on this matter.
I look forward to continuing to work with them on our shared objective of delivering long overdue peace and prosperity to the people of Israel and Palestine and the wider Middle East.
Ireland will always stand with all those ready to walk a political pathway to peace and we will do everything in our power to help to bring it about.
That is what today’s decision is about.
We take it to offer hope and encouragement to the people of Palestine in one of their darkest hours.
We in Ireland see you, we recognise you, we respect you.
We will continue to work so that you and your children and your children’s children can have the better future you deserve and so that one day Palestinian children and Israeli children can live side by side in peace and security.
Are you literally capable of anything that isn't bad-faith, incendiary comments?
This post is Facebook levels of screaming into the void. It serves no other purpose.
This is the point. They do not. Calling for a "global intifada" is support of Hamas. Ripping down posters of Israeli hostages is supporting Hamas.
I reckon if you did a straw poll of the those cnuts on US campuses, well over 50% would be supportive of Hamas and their objectives.
Good stuff. Agree with every word here.
You're on a roll.
Please more insults, generalizations, fallacies, false equivalences and stats pulled straight out of your rear end.
Again in first sentence you cant help but handout silly remarks. What partners in crime?
I don’t know what news you follow but if you think everybody condemn Hamas you are greatly mistaken. The remark About street protesters and students…you talk something About being myopic?
everybody wants bloodshed to stop.
nobody said 2 mil.people are Hamas.
you dont have to sell me these ideas
I get that I provoked you with sarkastic remark at the beginning but it is quite telling that you immidiately divert the conversation to But Israel did this and that.
What you are on? what this has anything to do in any argument here? how deluded are you?
Or this is just pure trolling at this point
Even though I have some thoughts about the why some of these nations support an independent Palestine that goes beyond the conflict itself - I think it's great we finally have some Western nations that do not fall in line with whatever the US or even the UK says is the way to go. Even my European relatives say that if there is one thing Trump was good for - its that he made other countries re-think their blind allegiance to America and started speaking for themselves more on the geopolitical stage. Touche Russian hackers.
What do you think they are? Looks like these three countries have a combined Jewish population of under 50 000, and as far as I can tell they don't have any significant lobby power or real representation in the elites there. I think it was only a question of time, especially in Norway and Ireland. I doubt they were incredibly keen on doing this right now, but events/Israel have forced their hand since delaying it much longer would totally shatter their image of being moral protectors of international law. I'm not that familier with Spain, though.
Somewhat relevant to today’s developments, this March article by Raja Khalidi argues for dismantling the Palestinian Authority and proceeding on the basis of the State of Palestine:
The Case for Palestine
The Palestinian Authority Has Outlived Its Purpose—It’s Time for the State
The Case for Palestine
The Palestinian Authority Has Outlived Its Purpose—It’s Time for the State
So, Israel then.
The obstacle to any of the plans you've detailed here is Israel's unceasing commitment to Palestinian extermination.
Well done Ireland, Norway and Spain.
ask the Kurds and they will tell you.
Jews have lived there dating back to the same time as the Palestinians, then believed to be known as the Philistines in the land of Canaan which was inhabited by Palestinians, Jews and other groups alike in across what is now Palestine/Israel, Lebanon and Jordan.
So what’s your point? If you are claiming Jews have lived there many years ago, then you are also saying Palestinians have lived there for an equally long amount of time.
Either way, what the Zionists have done to the Palestinians cannot be justified in any way, be it biblically, morally or politically.
put it this way, they had more of the pie than Zionists from Eastern Europe.
if Palestinians didn’t have the whole pie, then Israel weren’t even in the pie shop!
I disagree. This is about land and the right to self determination. Israel stole the land and the Palestinians want it back.
For the Zionists it is about religion and taking over the Al Aqsa Mosque. For Palestinians it is about the land and resisting the Zionist project to drive them out and exterminate them.
The river to the sea thing was started by the Zionists, it’s even in your charter.
Apartheid South Africa was deemed beyond the realms of possibility to see equal rights for black South Africans and the white oppressors but it happened.
It will take more liberal and moderate voices to take power in Israel but it is absolutely possible.
You mention October 7th has made it impossible but this is a typical arrogant Zionist response.
The Palestinians may also be entitled to suggest a two state solution is not possible due to 76 years of theft, murder, oppression, settlers and apartheid?
More fabricated Israeli propaganda from a disgusting, sick, racist society
Mate you get your history wrong. Philistines were from Greece (Crete) and had nothing to do with Arabs who migrated there from Arab penninsula.
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Yes they were from the Arab peninsula, you’re right, my point being they lived in the same region as the philistines in places like Gaza in what was then known as Canaan.
Hence the Palestinians have been there for a very long time and it is disingenuous to suggest they don’t belong there or that the Jews belong there more, or have more of a claim to that land.
Doesn't this prominently include the RAF?
Didn't the RAF also very famously target Nazi party officials who continued to have high positions in business and government of the FRG? That too at a time when the public and official attitude to the Nazi era was vey different.
Has that contradiction ever been noticed?
obviously no one can condone violence or sexual abuse, on either side, because let’s get it straight, there has been sexual violence against Palestinian women (and children!) by IDF soldiers. But of course that doesn’t get any media attention.
any acts like that are appalling and abhorrent.
your comments about resistance are a pathetic attempt to deflect attention from the war crimes being committed by the Israelis for decades.
because of course it all started on October 7th didn’t it?
I'd imagine ancient/historical claims to the land are probably a bit far fetched on either side given that a lot of the current residents probably can't trace their lineages back to the ancient inhabitants through mitochondrial DNA. So many people have come and gone from the area over multiple millennia that its next to impossible to make a believable ancient claim to the land in the present.
This may well be true. Therefore, if we put that aside, what legal, moral or ethical basis can we have for the creation of the Zionist state on land occupied by Palestinians?
There is no non biblical claim to the land from Zionists.
I, for one, am shocked that the terrorist state of israel is making up lies for propaganda. Even more shocked that gfactor lapped it all up.
Well done Ireland, Spain and Norway.
@gfactor86 @Giggsy PO
This is Palestinians every day life under the occupation of your army, for the past 70 years.
Well there is archeological evidence which proves the connection of Jews to the land. There was never a period without Jews there. Arabs came later. But I agree that over the course of history people went and go. At the end of 19th century, when first jewish refugees came to the land, mainly from tsarist Russia, it was forgotten periphery of Ottoman Empire where Arabs where majority population. But it was still very sparsely populated. The population began to rise when Jews started to cultivate the land, which attracted workers, merchants etc. from all of the other parts of the Empire. And all those people have viable claim to the land.
The anti-Jewish crowd just push this narrative to the extreme that Jews have no connection to the land. They are just white settlers and all this crap. Jews do have the connection to the land. So do Arabs.
Chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee of the German Bundestag * directly elected member of the Bundestag since 1998 * Socialist * Feminist * European * freedom-loving
It's literally what people here were saying 7 months ago. There's also the possibility that this report is exaggerated and their estimate of Hamas fighters killed is a bit off.