Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
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He's been trying to undermine the legitimacy of these protests since day one.
@Raoul this reminds me, I'm still waiting for that data that shows 40% of protesters are infiltrators. Can you provide it or will you admit you were wrong?
The information was provided the other day. The overall numbers at City College and Columbia (the two NY schools in question) were between the 29% and 60, as was published by the NYPD.
A good illustration of how Biden will get criticized by both sides irrespective of which positions he takes. This was the right position to take though.
Can you link me to the information provided mentioning they were infiltrators? I can't find it.
Its not useful for you to get hung up on the word infiltrators. People who are "unaffiliated "is merely politically correct office speak; a way of saying people who were unauthorized to be on campus were arrested. They were therefore anywhere between unauthorized guests to professional saboteurs. In either case, they were arrested on campus despite not having legitimate reasons to be there.
I have 0 proof but 0 doubts that is a PR stunt. Biden it still supply everything that Israel needs while withholding, in agreement with Netanyahu, a shipment that Israel don't need (or not much) to show that is doing something
Poor Biden. It must be so hard to face criticism from both sides from selling weapons to Israel whilst they genocide the Palestinians.
I read something earlier about the Israelis wanting to exempt Rafah from a ceasefire deal.
These people are deeply unserious and the talks have stopped now.
These people are deeply unserious and the talks have stopped now.
I can't see any scenario under which the Israelis don't go into Rafah at this point. Their publicly stated goal from the beginning has been to expel Hamas from Gaza and they view anything short of that as being a victory for Hamas. This is also why hostage swaps are unlikely to move the needle since Hamas' position has been that swapping hostages for a ceasefire would entail Israeli forces withdrawing from all of Gaza. Never mind the possibility that a fair number of hostages are probably no longer alive at this point.
Yes, but that's not their actual goal, so it's irrelevant.
The word infiltrators is precisely the thing to be hung up on. Because you and I both know that word, in the context of protests, has a negative connotation.
No one forced you to use the word, the police didn't use the word, but you still chose to use it.
It sounded to me you wanted to make the protesters look bad by using that description for 40% of the people there. Not a couple of bad apples, but 40%, which involves thousands of people.
If that wasn't the case, you could've just said you were wrong to use the word and they were not infiltrators, simply non-students, as they were described in all reports. But you doubled down, this shows you're the one hung up on that adjective.
Paired with other instances where you make patronizing remarks about protesters, try to downplay their demands, exaggerate any more extreme behaviors and use other very weird gimmicks, like in the previous page, using hamas right after mentioning protesters, which a couple of people called you out for doing, one thing became clear for me: you have an agenda here, despite constantly accusing others of having an agenda.
So if you're doubling down, I'll also double down on calling out your bs: 40% of the protesters are not infiltrators and there is not a single police report that says so. You were wrong and the fact you can't admit it is problematic as you came across as someone not debating this topic of protests in good fate.
If it's such an insignificant thing to be hung up on, if it's such a small detail, why not admit you were wrong? You replied multiple times to me and @NotThatSoph, you could've ended this - quite silly at this point - interaction by admitting being wrong. It's fascinating you can't do it.
That's precisely why its used. Because it has a negative connotation. The NYPD displayed some of the items they confiscated from those arrested, and they weren't exactly things synonymous with peaceful student protesters advocating for peace.
It is the goal they've stated from the beginning. If you're suggesting they are interested in removing all Gazans from Gaza, with the exception of a few loud right wing Israeli politicians who no one takes seriously, we haven't seen any evidence of that.
Jesus mate, it's not about "why its used", because it wasn't used. It's about YOU using it despite no one else doing it, including the police you keep repeating has used it.
Your incapacity to admit you made a mistake is quite fascinating. That or it wasn't a mistake and you're proving my point about having an agenda.
Oh please … which confiscated items are we talking about here? The course book on terrorism that was presented as a how to guide? Or the “industry scale locks” that turned out to be the bike locks sold from the university shop
There was no mistake made. It was done intentionally after reading about the amount of outsiders arrested. That's not to say actual students don't have a right to protest on campus, but when the entire thing becomes disruptive, the administration have the right to calls cops to escort them out. They can still protest outside of campus, therefore there's nothing preventing them from expressing their views on the conflict.
This is where the IHRA definition law will be so useful in the future - discourse will be censored exactly like in Germany.
OK, it's now clear then, it was no mistake, good to know.
You purposefully want to make the protesters look bad by claiming 40% of them are infiltrators to give them a negative look and claim they are violent, even though you pulled the number out of thin air, as you haven't provided any source, except some police reports, which have zero mentions of infiltrators. 100% clear.
I hope you hesitate in the future before claiming others have an agenda when yours is now on display for all to see, and recognize others can't take your arguments in good faith when you admit you're making stuff up to fuel the narrative of thousands and thousands of infiltrators committed to violence.
Not at all. The actual student protestors were originally within their rights to be on campus. Those who weren't students were right to have been arrested when the administration called the cops. The students could've easily continued protesting outside of campus after the admin asked them to leave.
At this point I'm not sure if my english is that bad or you're just trolling me.
It's funny that people like Bush were calling for an end to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands just 16 years ago. I know it was just lip service, but there's now zero chance you'll find someone from the current democratic administration to utter anything that resembles these words. That goes for the vast majority of elected Democrats.
I prefer the (more accurate) statement "israel is a terrorist state" anyway.
Your English is fine
Breaking: White House spokesman John Kirby: The president will continue to provide Israel with the military capabilities it needs, but he does not want certain types of American weapons to be used in specific operations and in a specific area
While there were no casualties among our staff, the fire caused extensive damage to the outdoor areas. The UNRWA headquarters has on its grounds a petrol and diesel station for the Agency’s fleet of cars.
Our director with the help of other staff had to put out the fire themselves as it took the Israeli fire extinguishers and police a while before they turned up.
A crowd accompanied by armed men were witnessed outside the compound chanting “Burn down the United Nations” (see video below from Israeli media).
This is an outrageous development. Once again, the lives of UN staff were at a serious risk.
In light of this second appalling incident in less than a week, I have taken the decision to close down our coumpound until proper security is restored.
Over the past two months, Israeli extremists have been staging protests outside the UNRWA compound in Jerusalem, called by an elected member of the Jerusalem municipality.
This week, the protest became violent when demonstrators threw stones at UN staff and at the buildings of the compound.
Over the past months, UN staff have regularly been subjected to harassment and intimidation. Our compound has been seriously vandalized and damaged.
On several occasions, Israeli extremists threatened our staff with guns.
It is the responsibility of the State of Israel as an occupying power to ensure that United Nations personnel and facilities are protected at all times.
UN staff, premises and operations should be protected at all times in line with international law.
I call on all those who have influence to put an end to these attacks and hold all those responsible accountable.
The perpetrators of these attacks must be investigated and those responsible must be held accountable.
Anything less will set a new dangerous standard.
Our director with the help of other staff had to put out the fire themselves as it took the Israeli fire extinguishers and police a while before they turned up.
A crowd accompanied by armed men were witnessed outside the compound chanting “Burn down the United Nations” (see video below from Israeli media).
This is an outrageous development. Once again, the lives of UN staff were at a serious risk.
In light of this second appalling incident in less than a week, I have taken the decision to close down our coumpound until proper security is restored.
Over the past two months, Israeli extremists have been staging protests outside the UNRWA compound in Jerusalem, called by an elected member of the Jerusalem municipality.
This week, the protest became violent when demonstrators threw stones at UN staff and at the buildings of the compound.
Over the past months, UN staff have regularly been subjected to harassment and intimidation. Our compound has been seriously vandalized and damaged.
On several occasions, Israeli extremists threatened our staff with guns.
It is the responsibility of the State of Israel as an occupying power to ensure that United Nations personnel and facilities are protected at all times.
UN staff, premises and operations should be protected at all times in line with international law.
I call on all those who have influence to put an end to these attacks and hold all those responsible accountable.
The perpetrators of these attacks must be investigated and those responsible must be held accountable.
Anything less will set a new dangerous standard.
I mean, he's right. Muslims worldwide by and large couldn't give a shit about Hamas, "Palestine" though is a different matter.
But middle east muslim governments couldn't give a crap of Palestine and they would love that Israel would kill or kick out all the palestinians so they could stop faking any concern and start to do business with Israel
Also true.
Yes and no. I think they prefer a status quo of perpetual Palestinian subjugation so they can always drum up some fake outrage to appease their citizens especially at times of domestic turmoil, (see Erdogan in Turkey) all while maintaining covert diplomatic ties with Israel (UAE and Saudi), but not for there to be a catastrophic humanitarian situation like now where they'd be expected to act on their bluffs.
If Palestine/Palestinians disappeared tomorrow they'd have no useful rallying point to distract their (often disgruntled) citizens, and would be in a fair bit of trouble. Then there's neighbouring countries like Lebanon and Egypt that would face an enormous refugee crisis they just aren't capable of dealing with.
Some things that doesnt add up
You said that they want a quite Subjugation do they can rally. But not what happend now. But you put as un example erdogan...that rallied when the genocide happened. Not when there was a quite subjugation. They were israels number one import partner
I dont think any government rallied anybody about palestine issue in many years besides Iran an yemen (that the government really wants the destruction of israel and palestina to exist)
I dont think any of the pro(ish)-western middle east rallied anyone on that and they cant wait for palestina to disappear besides as you well said, the neighbouring countries
They do give a crap, maybe not on personal level but as you suggest their actions towards the whole Israel - Palestinian issue will affect the public perception.
As much as they're dictatorial at one point too much is too much and something else other than posturing would need to be done.
Put it this way, if the Russians are pounding the Ukrainian as bad as Israel you'd bet your lunch the government would do more drastic measures. I still believe in humanity and there will be a tipping point where enough is enough. Who'd have thought the Americans students would be the first to rise up in protest, these things can escalate fast.
I believe in humanity but not the power structure that governs humanity. And that is why the middle east governments (bar Iran and Yemen) would like the palestinians to disappear. They would not need posturing anymore. Now they need to mildly side on the palestinian side in their discours (0 meaning action), but if that would happen in the 70s, the disc discourse would be another
I'm not sure about that. They need the Palestine issue to remain unsolved but not for rallying reasons.