Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Some things that doesnt add up

You said that they want a quite Subjugation do they can rally. But not what happend now. But you put as un example erdogan...that rallied when the genocide happened. Not when there was a quite subjugation. They were israels number one import partner

I dont think any government rallied anybody about palestine issue in many years besides Iran an yemen (that the government really wants the destruction of israel and palestina to exist)

I dont think any of the pro(ish)-western middle east rallied anyone on that and they cant wait for palestina to disappear besides as you well said, the neighbouring countries
Leaders like Erdogan depend on the status quo because he knows that every now and then things kick off, lots of Palestinians die, and he can hold his neo-Ottoman rallies, giving it large about how Turkey will not accept these crimes, all while attempting to distract from his quasi-autocratic ways as well as the domestic and economical turmoil within Turkey. Without that, all he has to fall back on as a distraction is drumming up anti-Kurdish or anti-EU rhetoric.

The other Arab dictators enjoy Palestinian subjugation because it allows them to chime in with how awful and unjust it all is, in a cynical attempt to remind their citizens that they're human beings that care for their fellow Muslims/Arabs. Its all pretty vacuous.

My point is a resolution or change from the status quo doesn't benefit them - for some its because it deprives them of a rallying point to distract from issues at home, and for others because they're neighouring nations that will face a catastrophic refugee crisis should Israel go full speed ahead with their ethnic cleansing aspirations.
 


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Even the wasps are anti-semitic, it really is israel against the world.
 
I'm not sure about that. They need the Palestine issue to remain unsolved but not for rallying reasons.
Leaders like Erdogan depend on the status quo because he knows that every now and then things kick off, lots of Palestinians die, and he can hold his neo-Ottoman rallies, giving it large about how Turkey will not accept these crimes, all while attempting to distract from his quasi-autocratic ways as well as the domestic and economical turmoil within Turkey. Without that, all he has to fall back on as a distraction is drumming up anti-Kurdish or anti-EU rhetoric.

The other Arab dictators enjoy Palestinian subjugation because it allows them to chime in with how awful and unjust it all is, in a cynical attempt to remind their citizens that they're human beings that care for their fellow Muslims/Arabs. Its all pretty vacuous.

My point is a resolution or change from the status quo doesn't benefit them - for some its because it deprives them of a rallying point to distract from issues at home, and for others because they're neighouring nations that will face a catastrophic refugee crisis should Israel go full speed ahead with their ethnic cleansing aspirations.


I dont see like you both. But it is fine. I agree that as you both say, they use the palestinians for their autocratic rhetoric, as they are trying to do the most of it about the nuisance, but they would rather prefer not to have the nuisance. But lets agree to disagree
 
I dont see like you both. But it is fine. I agree that as you both say, they use the palestinians for their autocratic rhetoric, as they are trying to do the most of it about the nuisance, but they would rather prefer not to have the nuisance. But lets agree to disagree

Tbh, it's best to examine each case individually. These countries and regimes differ a bit, even though the methods of their rulers might not be that different. Talking about them as this monolithic entity does simplify things a little.
 

I get US and Israel, as well as the various small Pacific Islands bribed by the US. But what's Hungary and Czechia's deal?

Also something pretty ironic about Ukraine abstaining. Though I suspect they're weary of upsetting the US too much.
 
I get US and Israel, as well as the various small Pacific Islands bribed by the US. But what's Hungary and Czechia's deal?

Also something pretty ironic about Ukraine abstaining. Though I suspect they're weary of upsetting the US too much.

Orban's government in Hungary are right-wing and standing up for 'Christian values', i.e. very much against non-European migration. I view them like a Central European Republican Party.

The Czech's have a long history of friendship with Israel. They were one of 30-odd countries who voted for the creation of the Jewish state in 1947. When the US and other Western European countries refused to arm Israel in the 1948 war, Czechoslovakia stepped in and provided the weapons that helped Israel win.

Ukraine is more pragmatic. They want Iron Dome in their fight against Russia. They are pursuing a pro-Israel strategy to (hopefully) get weapons, and are going hard on the line of "we are fighting Iran too".
 
Orban's government in Hungary are right-wing and standing up for 'Christian values', i.e. very much against non-European migration. I view them like a Central European Republican Party.

The Czech's have a long history of friendship with Israel. They were one of 30-odd countries who voted for the creation of the Jewish state in 1947. When the US and other Western European countries refused to arm Israel in the 1948 war, Czechoslovakia stepped in and provided the weapons that helped Israel win.

Ukraine is more pragmatic. They want Iron Dome in their fight against Russia. They are pursuing a pro-Israel strategy to (hopefully) get weapons, and are going hard on the line of "we are fighting Iran too".
Very helpful explanation, thanks.
 
Orban's government in Hungary are right-wing and standing up for 'Christian values', i.e. very much against non-European migration. I view them like a Central European Republican Party.

The Czech's have a long history of friendship with Israel. They were one of 30-odd countries who voted for the creation of the Jewish state in 1947. When the US and other Western European countries refused to arm Israel in the 1948 war, Czechoslovakia stepped in and provided the weapons that helped Israel win.

Ukraine is more pragmatic. They want Iron Dome in their fight against Russia. They are pursuing a pro-Israel strategy to (hopefully) get weapons, and are going hard on the line of "we are fighting Iran too".

On Hungary, its definitely an Orban thing, as pre-Orban Hungary had good relations with the PLO and PA.
 
Tbh, it's best to examine each case individually. These countries and regimes differ a bit, even though the methods of their rulers might not be that different. Talking about them as this monolithic entity does simplify things a little.

Sure, I can agree on that. I think I made a comment that I was refering the pro(ish)-western middle east countries. That means Saudi Arabia, UAE countries, and others. Egypt and Jordan if it would not mean to take refugees. Even Turkey. Being a full time trade partner is better than now have to suspend relationships with israel.

Iran an Yemen are in the other end.

And then you have others like Oman and Bahrein(that I have 0 idea), Qatar that is a player to get gravitas in the region and Iraqm Syria and Lebannon that have enough problems in their hands

Generalizing is never good and any of them will capitalize Palestina for its own PR stunts gain, but most of the governments (not its people) would rather the "problem" to disappear and be able to recognize Israel and stablish relationships way far than the position 40-50 years ago

In the end, money is king
 
Orban's government in Hungary are right-wing and standing up for 'Christian values', i.e. very much against non-European migration. I view them like a Central European Republican Party.

The Czech's have a long history of friendship with Israel. They were one of 30-odd countries who voted for the creation of the Jewish state in 1947. When the US and other Western European countries refused to arm Israel in the 1948 war, Czechoslovakia stepped in and provided the weapons that helped Israel win.

Ukraine is more pragmatic. They want Iron Dome in their fight against Russia. They are pursuing a pro-Israel strategy to (hopefully) get weapons, and are going hard on the line of "we are fighting Iran too".

An Argentina have one of the biggest populations in the world and crazy Milei is a right wing extremist too
 
I get US and Israel, as well as the various small Pacific Islands bribed by the US. But what's Hungary and Czechia's deal?

Also something pretty ironic about Ukraine abstaining. Though I suspect they're weary of upsetting the US too much.

Hate for Muslims.
 
So Palestine will be granted the right to sit in the general assembly as a state from now on?

edit, the answer is Yes.

Here are some of the changes in status that Palestine will have a right to as a result of the resolution passing (only effective at the new session of the Assembly that opens on 10 September):
1) To be seated among Member States in alphabetical order;
2) make statements on behalf of a group;
3) submit proposals and amendments and introduce them;
4) co-sponsor proposals and amendments, including on behalf of a group;
5) propose items to be included in the provisional agenda of the regular or special sessions and the right to request the inclusion of supplementary or additional items in the agenda of regular or special sessions;
6) the right of members of the delegation of the State of Palestine to be elected as officers in the plenary and the Main Committees of the General Assembly;
7) full and effective participation in United Nations conferences and international conferences and meetings convened under the auspices of the General Assembly or, as appropriate, under the auspices of other organs of the United Nations
 
Truly embarrassing. Well done France.
Id imagine France probably has the largest Middle Eastern population as a percentage of its population compared to all the other European nations, no? Not saying they did it just for that reason, but given their history with riots in France you d have to think the potential for unrest within their own borders of they voted differently might have been part of the consideration.

Also: Ireland voted yes as well, as did Iceland and Greece, Belgium and most of the micro states.
 
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Spain having an existential crisis.
I have a lot of respect for Spain when it comes to football and this issue.
Id imagine France probably has the largest Middle Eastern population as a percentage of its population compared to all the other European nations, no? Not saying they did it just for that reason, but given their history with riots in France you d have to think the potential for unrest within their own borders of they voted differently might have been part of the consideration.

Also: Ireland voted yes as well, as did Iceland and Greece, Belgium and most of the micro states.

 
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/midd...-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html
Strapped down, blindfolded, held in diapers: Israeli whistleblowers detail abuse of Palestinians in shadowy detention center

They paint a picture of a facility where doctors sometimes amputated prisoners’ limbs due to injuries sustained from constant handcuffing; of medical procedures sometimes performed by underqualified medics earning it a reputation for being “a paradise for interns”; and where the air is filled with the smell of neglected wounds left to rot.

According to the accounts, the facility some 18 miles from the Gaza frontier is split into two parts: enclosures where around 70 Palestinian detainees from Gaza are placed under extreme physical restraint, and a field hospital where wounded detainees are strapped to their beds, wearing diapers and fed through straws.

...
He was arrested on December 18, he said, outside Gaza City’s Al-Ahli Baptist Hospital, where he had been working for three days after fleeing his hospital in the heavily bombarded north. He was stripped down to his underwear, blindfolded and his wrists tied, then dumped in the back of a truck where, he said, the near-naked detainees were piled on top of one another as they were shuttled to a detention camp in the middle of the desert.

A week into his imprisonment, the detention camp’s authorities ordered him to act as an intermediary between the guards and the prisoners, a role known as Shawish, “supervisor,” in vernacular Arabic. According to the Israeli whistleblowers, a Shawish is normally a prisoner who has been cleared of suspected links to Hamas after interrogation.

For that, al-Ran said he was given a special privilege: his blindfold was removed. He said this was another kind of hell. “Part of my torture was being able to see how people were being tortured,” he said. “At first you couldn’t see. You couldn’t see the torture, the vengeance, the oppression. “When they removed my blindfold, I could see the extent of the humiliation and abasement … I could see the extent to which they saw us not as human beings but as animals.”
...

Al-Ran’s account of the forms of punishment he saw were corroborated by the whistleblowers who spoke with CNN. A prisoner who committed an offense such as speaking to another would be ordered to raise his arms above his head for up to an hour. The prisoner’s hands would sometimes be zip-tied to a fence to ensure that he did not come out of the stress position.

For those who repeatedly breached the prohibition on speaking and moving, the punishment became more severe. Israeli guards would sometimes take a prisoner to an area outside the enclosure and beat him aggressively, according to two whistleblowers and al-Ran. A whistleblower who worked as a guard said he saw a man emerge from a beating with his teeth, and some bones, apparently broken.

That whistleblower and al-Ran also described a routine search when the guards would unleash large dogs on sleeping detainees, lobbing a sound grenade at the enclosure as troops barged in. Al-Ran called this “the nightly torture.” “While we were cabled, they unleashed the dogs that would move between us, and trample over us,” said al-Ran. “You’d be lying on your belly, your face pressed against the ground. You can’t move, and they’re moving above you.”
 
https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/10/midd...-detention-whistleblowers-intl-cmd/index.html
Strapped down, blindfolded, held in diapers: Israeli whistleblowers detail abuse of Palestinians in shadowy detention center

They paint a picture of a facility where doctors sometimes amputated prisoners’ limbs due to injuries sustained from constant handcuffing; of medical procedures sometimes performed by underqualified medics earning it a reputation for being “a paradise for interns”; and where the air is filled with the smell of neglected wounds left to rot.

According to the accounts, the facility some 18 miles from the Gaza frontier is split into two parts: enclosures where around 70 Palestinian detainees from Gaza are placed under extreme physical restraint, and a field hospital where wounded detainees are strapped to their beds, wearing diapers and fed through straws.

It is the same place where people like Dr Adnan Al Bursh were taken and tortured to death.