Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Drainy said:
What's a westerner? There were countries in the west calling for ceasefires at that point.

The US and UK said that the Rafah offensive was a red line. Why do you suppose that is?
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You know well what a westerner is, don't waste my time with a question like that.

The US have had a million (not literally) red lines since Oct 7, what makes you think this one was for real? The UK just waits for whatever the yanks tell them to do.
 
What’s Paraguays issue with Palestine?
 
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ScholesyTheWise said:
There is no real PR department, at least not a functioning one.

to add to the post that Amir has written which I agree with,
one has to understand that it's a slow process that's built gradually over the years.
even since you're in kindergarten you are taught about the heroic actions of the fallen soldiers over the years.
and then you get to to 9th grade, highschool... and you want to get into the best units of the IDF, the combative ones. it's a status symbol,
and it fills young people and their parents with real pride.

You are there to make sure that the enemy doesn't hurt you. if your enemy is seen as a human being, then you have a problem.
so he has to remain a figure, A Palestinian. no name, no identity.

I grew up in a secular, liberal, anti-religion home. parents voting for left leaning parties etc.
Still, no one hardly ever said anything to me about people living in the WB or Gaza. they're just there, and they don't like us, and we don't like them.
the proposition of peace for the 1990s is dead and buried. They don't want us here, never have, never will. this is probably what's being repeated in many many homes in Israel in the ears of children, to various degrees of extremisms. My parents never said anything like that to me, but I still picked it up from the general atmosphere, from how the media here portrait the world, from Memorial Days...

So all in all, people from the non-religious public in Israel grow up to be rather indifferent about the suffering of people on the other side of the border. so long as they don't throw missiles at us and not bother us, then fine. it's a shame that they're even there but what can you do, this is the Middle East after all...

And when they do throw missiles at us, we will feck them up ten folds with our planes and drones, and they will stay put for another 20 years...
I don't think I ever met a single person from "my population group" who wished for tens of thousands of Gazans to die. people just wished for them to keep living in that open air prison and die anyway, but "not by our hands".

The shift in the Israeli society since October is that many more people will say that bluntly - "I don't give a single feck about anyone over there, that's their undoing. They made it very clear that we have no choice but to act the way we do".

I think that people are just starting to lose their minds really.
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Thanks for this post. It confirms what I personally understood and gathered.
 
The Corinthian said:
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I think the UAE have been concerned since November at least… they even worked with China on a resolution at the UNSC back then, vetoed by America… They also joint fellow Arab and Muslim countries in supporting South Africa’s genocide case…. But this is the first they are authorised by America to suspend their diplomatic coordination with Israel.
 
Pintu said:
What exactly has Algeria done, what more than Lebanon for example?
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They've used their seat on the UNSC to push for a ceasefire resolution continuously. I get that they're the only Arab state on the SC but it's good that they've been leading from the front in that regard. And Algeria is one of the only Arab states to not normalise relations with Israel when all of their Arab neighbours have.
 
That_Bloke said:
Aside from Algeria, there hasn't been a single Arab country on the Palestinians side. Spineless cowards and sell-outs.
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100%.

The Jordanians have been protesting on the streets for 12 days now for King Abdullah to break all ties with Israel. What's clear is these Arab states really do not speak for their people at all. And it's not just Arab states either in my opinion.

What's crazy is how the Palestinian issue has such deep faultlines across the world. US and UK is seeing the ramifications of it now (if not before).
 
That_Bloke said:
Aside from Algeria, there hasn't been a single Arab country on the Palestinians side. Spineless cowards and sell-outs.
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I'm not sure I'm a big fan of calling countries with zero power in this "spineless cowards". The middle east has been destroyed by the US and it's allies, most of these countries do as they're told or they'll face repercussions.
 
Raven said:
You know well what a westerner is, don't waste my time with a question like that.

The US have had a million (not literally) red lines since Oct 7, what makes you think this one was for real? The UK just waits for whatever the yanks tell them to do.
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Your opinion only makes sense if westerners only includes half of the Anglosphere.

I won't take up anymore of your obviously precious time..
 
Pintu said:
What exactly has Algeria done, what more than Lebanon for example?
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Cease-fire resolution? Beyond the so-called Arab solidarity which never materialized in any meaningful way and because of its own struggle to gain its independence, Algeria has a long standing relationship and solidarity with Palestine, even if their support sadly doesn't amount to anything relevant. Algeria's still conditioning to this day the recognition of Israel as a state to Palestine's and it never budged from this line since 1962 (date of Algeria's independence).

Raven said:
I'm not sure I'm a big fan of calling countries with zero power in this "spineless cowards". The middle east has been destroyed by the US and it's allies, most of these countries do as they're told or they'll face repercussions.
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Even if I excluded Iraq and Syria which were indeed deliberately wiped out off the geopolitical map or Jordan which never amounted to much anyway, the rest still absolutely is, especially the ones in the region.

They have more than enough leverage to at least push a bit in favor of the Palestinians and they deliberately don't use it. The most powerful of them are the backbone of the OPEC. In 1973 they weaponized oil (reducing production whilst augmenting the barrel prize) wrecking political and economic havoc on the West. They'd be even more powerful now, if they decided to present a unified front. But they don't, they don't want to.

The Arab dictators leaders have no interest in Palestine seeing the light of the day, or a movement like Hamas achieving any kind of "victory", because they fear the domestic repercussions which could lead to them being overthrown.

They are vile, spineless cowards, shameless sell-outs and the embodiment of fecal matter. Every single one of them.
 
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Drainy said:
Your opinion only makes sense if westerners only includes half of the Anglosphere.

I won't take up anymore of your obviously precious time..
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Name one western country that has officially called for an immediate ceasefire previous to the western aid workers being killed. Sure there are outlets like Novara and other small left wing outlets calling out Israel's many war crimes from the start but nothing from the main stream and nothing from any government I know of.
 
That_Bloke said:
Cease-fire resolution? Beyond the so-called Arab solidarity which never materialized in any meaningful way and because of its own struggle to gain its independence, Algeria has a long standing relationship and solidarity with Palestine, even if their support sadly doesn't amount to anything relevant. Algeria's still conditioning to this day the recognition of Israel as a state to Palestine's and it never budged from this line since 1962 (date of Algeria's independence).


Even I exclude Iraq and Syria which were indeed deliberately wiped out off the geopolitical map or Jordan which never amounted to much anyway, the rest still absolutely is, especially the ones in the region.

They have more than enough leverage to at least push a bit in favor of the Palestinians and they deliberately don't use it. The most powerful of them are the backbone of the OPEC. In 1973 they weaponized oil (reducing production whilst augmenting the barrel prize) wrecking political and economic havoc on the West. They'd be even more powerful now, if they decided to present a unified front. But they don't, they don't want to.

The Arab dictators leaders have no interest in Palestine seeing the light of the day, or a movement like Hamas achieving any kind of "victory", because they fear the domestic repercussions which could lead to them being overthrown.

They are vile, spineless cowards, shameless sell-outs and the embodiment of fecal matter. Every single one of them.
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You seem to have a better understanding of the power dynamics there so I'll take your point. I would however point out that the destruction and destabilisation of the most powerful nations in the region for crossing the US is probably enough of a deterrent for the rest of them. You missed out Libya by the way.
 
That_Bloke said:
Aside from Algeria, there hasn't been a single Arab country on the Palestinians side. Spineless cowards and sell-outs.
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I agree on the whole, but I don't think that's entirely true.

Yemen is the obvious one, and Qatar perhaps more discretely. Syria and Iraq are also both vocal supporters of the Palestinian cause, though neither have any real power or leverage to do anything of note, and not to mention they have their own domestic turmoils to try and tame. Likewise with Lebanon (not counting Hezbollah's involvement in recent skirmishes, but they're more of an Iranian proxy despite being Lebanese Arabs).

The remaining gulf states are all spineless, particularly those shamefully wanting to normalise relations with Israel. Jordan and Egypt only care about the local ramifications to their borders, but otherwise have made peace with Israel and offer nothing besides crocodile tears and lip service to appease their respective populations who feel furious with how events have unfolded.
 
Raven said:
You seem to have a better understanding of the power dynamics there so I'll take your point. I would however point out that the destruction and destabilisation of the most powerful nations in the region for crossing the US is probably enough of a deterrent for the rest of them. You missed out Libya by the way.
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That's always been the plan. Bribe the ones you can, destroy the ones you can't. Iran is the last man standing in the game and the next target on the list.

It still doesn't change the fact the Arab countries do hold significant power, if they decided to adopt a common stance. But the only thing they ever agreed to is to disagree with each other.

Very true. That's one more non-cooperative major Arab player gone with the wind. Arab Spring, my fecking backside.
 
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I mean, for the sake of nitpicky argumentation, the intervention in Libya in 2011 was through a UN resolution, wasn't it?

Not saying it was good/bad, but that's the UN. It can work in favor of you or against you.
 
Amir said:
Plenty of Israelis think that supporting us is only valid if it's total - no matter what we do, no questions asked. It's totally simplistic and silly, but that's the way it is.
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Israel is the West's/US's ONLY real friend in the middle -east region. Subsequently there has been since 1948 a clear 'life -line' extended to Israel from the US and from the most of Europe. Therefore short of dragging everyone into WW3, Israel knows the West and the US has its back.

However, the IDF's inability to clear out Hamas 'tooth & nail' and the subsequent destruction this is visiting on the Palestinian people in Gaza in particular, means that the 'life-line' will start to get reeled in much faster, but not fully in, until after the Presidential Election in the US and even then it will depend on what interventions Russia and China take up.

The killing of the WCK aid workers will mean Israel's perceived front line policy of 'shoot first, ask questions later' will now have to change, and with the opening of new passages for food and other essentials to reach the beleaguered populace in Gaza, the easing of the plight of people in Gaza should follow; but also the 'stalemate' will take hold and in reality Israel will finish up running Gaza, at least for the foreseeable future... because no one knows what will come next.
 
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Raven said:
Name one western country that has officially called for an immediate ceasefire previous to the western aid workers being killed. Sure there are outlets like Novara and other small left wing outlets calling out Israel's many war crimes from the start but nothing from the main stream and nothing from any government I know of.
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I wouldn't want to waste your time arguing about pauses Vs ceasefires but maybe Google the question 'which countries voted for a ceasefire UN' and gaze at the list of your western oppressors when you have a moment
 
The Corinthian said:

Do the Palestinian people have the right to self-determination, also adopted.

The US continuing to embarrass themselves on the world stage.
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Is Albania a Zionist state? Why cant they vote yes for the right of the Palestanians for self determination.
 
Drainy said:
I wouldn't want to waste your time arguing about pauses Vs ceasefires but maybe Google the question 'which countries voted for a ceasefire UN' and gaze at the list of your western oppressors when you have a moment
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as an outsider from asia, I found that many irish have some obsession to be "anti-west" in international politics. Can someone explain to me why is that? Because of their historical relationship with the UK?
 
Giggsyking said:
Is Albania a Zionist state? Why cant they vote yes for the right of the Palestanians for self determination.
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https://www.jta.org/2023/10/25/glob...israel-country-will-the-hamas-war-change-that

“Albania and Israel have had historically warm relations, based partially on the fact that Albania is the only European country occupied by Axis powers to have a higher Jewish population at the end of World War II than they did before the war,” Dewar said. “The Albanians provided shelter for both Albanian Jews and Jews from neighboring countries and, in return, Israel took in Kosovar Albanian refugees from the Kosovo War in 1999.”

https://themedialine.org/news/ties-that-bind-ties-that-break-the-future-of-israel-balkan-relations/

Some explanation maybe?
 
JeffFromHK said:
as an outsider from asia, I found that many irish have some obsession to be "anti-west" in international politics. Can someone explain to me why is that? Because of their historical relationship with the UK?
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Yes that's one way to put it. Obviously a lot of countries in Western Europe and North America were imperialist, or have colonial roots, or in recent history, and some have that mindset to this day (and seemingly have no urge to stop).

Ireland were on the wrong end of that and so can speak with some experience and moral authority on the subject in a way their nearest neighbours cannot.
 
Kaos said:
I agree on the whole, but I don't think that's entirely true.

Yemen is the obvious one, and Qatar perhaps more discretely. Syria and Iraq are also both vocal supporters of the Palestinian cause, though neither have any real power or leverage to do anything of note, and not to mention they have their own domestic turmoils to try and tame. Likewise with Lebanon (not counting Hezbollah's involvement in recent skirmishes, but they're more of an Iranian proxy despite being Lebanese Arabs).

The remaining gulf states are all spineless, particularly those shamefully wanting to normalise relations with Israel. Jordan and Egypt only care about the local ramifications to their borders, but otherwise have made peace with Israel and offer nothing besides crocodile tears and lip service to appease their respective populations who feel furious with how events have unfolded.
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I'm not arguing against the Arab streets, no matter which country. They are overwhelmingly in favor of Palestine and seething at what's currently unfolding, but they have no voice in what their "governments" do.

As far as I know, the Houthis are not Yemen's official leading entity, that's why I left them out. The Houthis do their thing, but hardly enough to make any significant difference, and it's not a slight on them.

From what I understand, Qatar has a "Switzerland" policy since the country is too small to ever be a military power and constantly in SA's crosshair. It plays it to its strengths, but still is Asshole Nr. 2, the leading role belonging to MBS' Saudi Arabia and its medieval, barbaric regime.

Lebanon, as a country, has been effectively taken out of the game since the Israeli Invasion in 1982. Hezbollah is basically is a state within a state, playing its game whilst ensuring that Lebanon doesn't implode because of its own agenda. It's a (mild) deterrent factor for Israel, but not influential or powerful enough to take the initiative.

Thanks to the US incredibly generous and selfless initiative for democracy and freedom at gunpoint, Iraq and Syria are currently failed states and will stay this way for the coming decades. Nothing can be expected from them, and the few missiles or attacks on US military bases are nothing more than a peeble in a shoe. The potential attacks could play their part in a US election year, mind.

Jordan and Egypt have been bought off since 1973. They all depend on the US and Israeli money for their regime's own survival. Their autocrats could play a significant role, if they went past their own selfish interests, but they will not. In short, sell-outs.


Giggsyking said:
Iraq and Yemen.
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No.
 
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JeffFromHK said:
as an outsider from asia, I found that many irish have some obsession to be "anti-west" in international politics. Can someone explain to me why is that? Because of their historical relationship with the UK?
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They are not anti-West (the irony). They just experienced what the Palestinians do and know better.
 
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That_Bloke said:
Houthis are not Yemen's official leading entity
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Well, They control half the country with its most important cities and the "Official government" is in Saudi Arabia and to be honest are the ones that support (wrongly) the most as they directly attacking the interests of who is supporting Israel, us.
 
That_Bloke said:
I'm not arguing against the Arab streets, no matter which country. They are overwhelmingly in favor of Palestine and seething at what's currently unfolding, but they have no voice in what their "governments" do.

As far as I know, the Houthis are not Yemen's official leading entity, that's why I left them out. The Houthis do their thing, but hardly enough to make any significant difference, and it's not a slight on them.

From what I understand, Qatar has a "Switzerland" policy since the country is too small to ever be a military power and constantly in SA's crosshair. It plays it to its strengths, but still is Asshole Nr. 2, the leading role belonging to MBS' Saudi Arabia and its medieval, barbaric regime.

Lebanon, as a country, has been effectively taken out of the game since the Israeli intervention in 1982. Hezbollah is basically is a state within a state, playing its game whilst ensuring that Lebanon doesn't implode because of its own agenda. It's a (mild) deterrent factor for Israel, but not influential or powerful enough to take the initiative.

Thanks to the US incredibly generous and selfless initiative for democracy and freedom at gunpoint, Iraq and Syria are currently failed states and will stay this way for the coming decades. Nothing can be expected from them, and the few missiles or attacks on US military bases are nothing more than a peeble in a shoe. The potential attacks could play their part in a US election year, mind.

Jordan and Egypt have been bought since 1973. They all depend on the US and Israeli money for their regime's own survival. Their autocrats could play a significant role if they went past their own interests, but they will not. In short, sell-outs.
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The only thing I'd disagree with here is that the UAE is asshole number 2 in the region after SA (and to be honest you could make a hearty case for them being number 1). I don't see Qatar at all in that same way.

The other thing to note re Egypt is that the only democratically elected leader of Egypt in the last ~50 years was deposed by a Western puppet who was bankrolled by UAE, Israel and a couple of others.
 
Frosty said:
https://www.jta.org/2023/10/25/glob...israel-country-will-the-hamas-war-change-that

“Albania and Israel have had historically warm relations, based partially on the fact that Albania is the only European country occupied by Axis powers to have a higher Jewish population at the end of World War II than they did before the war,” Dewar said. “The Albanians provided shelter for both Albanian Jews and Jews from neighboring countries and, in return, Israel took in Kosovar Albanian refugees from the Kosovo War in 1999.”

https://themedialine.org/news/ties-that-bind-ties-that-break-the-future-of-israel-balkan-relations/

Some explanation maybe?
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Thanks for the info.
 
Frosty said:
Also I think Albania have recognised the State of Palestine, unlike most of Europe. So this is a fairly complicated position they seem to adopt
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I would guess that recognition is from Enver Hoxha's dictatorship.

India was the first non-Arab country to recognise the PLO, but that was a totally different ruling ideology, which explains why we abstained on it this time.
 
Drainy said:
Yes that's one way to put it. Obviously a lot of countries in Western Europe and North America were imperialist, or have colonial roots, or in recent history, and some have that mindset to this day (and seemingly have no urge to stop).

Ireland were on the wrong end of that and so can speak with some experience and moral authority on the subject in a way their nearest neighbours cannot.
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Belgium is an interesting and admirable case, having been one of the most brutal colonial powers in the 20th century to apparently learning the lessons of its crimes and recently becoming perhaps the strongest principled Western voice in support of Palestinians. I'm unfamiliar with what sort of reckoning they would've had with their colonial past, but in a world where broadly speaking past colonisers support Israel and past colonised support Palestinians, something must have been done right in Belgium.
 
That_Bloke said:
No.
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The biggest demonstrations were in Baghdad and Sanaa. In Iraq both the public and the State view of the conflict align. Iraq stil is the leading voice of opposition to diplomatic normalisation with Israel in the arab league. You probably not in the circle of Arabic news, but Iraq is a leading country for Palestinian rights. That said, Iraq has a big problem no other arab country has, they literally have all the state wealth in one account in the American federal bank, the revenue of every single drop of oil Iraq sells will be deposited in this account that the US control and can freeze whenever they want, they could starve Iraqis in a heartbeat if they want to, and they have waved this flag few times when Iraq and the US hit a disagreement.
 
Drainy said:
I wouldn't want to waste your time arguing about pauses Vs ceasefires but maybe Google the question 'which countries voted for a ceasefire UN' and gaze at the list of your western oppressors when you have a moment
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Needs to be a permanent ceasefire, a proper effort needs to be made to rebuild and stabilise Gaza and you can't do that with pauses. Even Ireland which is looked at as very anti-israel by lots of people wouldn't call for an immediate and permanent ceasefire (I realise I didn't initially say permanent, sorry for being short with you, I meant to add permanent), which for me has been the only appropriate thing to do for quite a long time.

As far as I can find, the only western nation that has called for a permanent ceasefire is France as of 2 weeks ago.
 
That_Bloke said:
That's alway been the plan. Bribe the ones you can, destroy the ones you can't. Iran is the last man standing in the game and the next target on the list.

It still doesn't change the fact the Arab countries do hold significant power, if they decided to adopt a common stance. But the only thing they ever agreed to is to disagree.

Very true. That's one more non-cooperative major Arab player gone with the wind. Arab Spring, my fecking backside.
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Autocratic leaders can be like that I guess, completely disconnected from their populations and totally self interested, makes them very useful to regimes like the US, it also makes a common stance far more likely but only to cater to the wishes of the US.

Yup, what's happened to the Arab world is repulsive and it's so frustrating knowing that there's no change on the horizon.
 
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