Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

africanspur said:
Could you give us a summary of your issues with his comments about the Hebron massacre, as opposed to a 42 page essay?
Click to expand...
The analysis regarding 1929 is approx. 5 pages. I am not going to make summary of that. I already said, it is the way he use his sources. I think I spent already enough time on Chomsky.
 
Giggsy PO said:
The main problem is his use of sources and references. The devil is always in the details. I based this on the analysis by Werner Cohn, which you can find here. I find it really well argued.
Click to expand...

Ah, I missed the asterisk and footnote on my kindle. I agree the footnote is a problematic framing of the context of the Hebron massacre, although not to the same degree as Cohn. I don't see any problem with framing the violence of 1929 in terms of, and at that point the most serious manifestation of, Palestinian resistance to Zionism, or as Chomsky puts it, to Balfour's "point of view". It's unclear why exactly Cohn does - the Shaw Commission which he goes on to cite favorably reached a similar conclusion.

I'd agree with him that Jewish designs on the Wall, while undoubtedly provocative, were just one element fueling the escalating tensions in Jerusalem that summer, and it's dishonest of Chomsky to leave his brief account at that and omit all mention of Palestinian politics, the Mufti, and the events of the previous summer in the matter. Likewise for Chomsky to emphasize the influence of interwar fascism on the Revisionists while ignoring analogous developments among Arab nationalists of the same era.

I have no opinion on the credibility or otherwise of Vincent Sheean as a witness, but Cohn seems especially troubled by Sheean's linking of events in Jerusalem to the Hebron massacre that occurred days later (and presumably by Chomsky's supposed implication that ultimately Jewish actions in Jerusalem produced the massacre). However, the most recent and thorough account of 1929 (which I highly, highly recommend btw) makes it clear that rumors reaching Hebron and elsewhere from Jerusalem absolutely played a role in the violence:

"The attackers in Jaffa, Hebron, and other places in 1929...were not part of a professional force on a mission and had not been trained as fighters. Rather, they were a large group of people who were driven to act after learning (or hearing rumors about) what had happened in Jerusalem...​
​
...Reports that Arabs had been murdered in Jerusalem reached Hebron on Friday afternoon. Highly exaggerated, the rumors claimed that Jews had killed huge numbers of Muslims...​
​
...The Arabs of Qalunya beset Motza at the very same time that Hebron's Arabs attacked that city's Jews...The hyperbolic rumors [that Jews had attacked Muslims when they emerged from prayers at al-Aqsa Mosque and had killed hundreds of them] incensed the village. The inhabitants began to plot an attack on their Jewish neighbors.​
​
...The skirmishes over the Western Wall and al-Aqsa caused tension and discord in Safed as well. Rumors about events in Jerusalem reached Safed much elaborated, describing a Jewish attack on al-Aqsa and the city's Muslim community."​

More broadly, Cohn presents Chomsky's brief analysis of 1929 as an example of his "anti-Zionism", but it's not clear to me that Chomsky is necessarily an "anti-Zionist". While he is of course scathing in his account of the actions of the early Zionist movement and subsequent Israeli policies, his deepest critique is reserved for the US role in facilitating those policies, and this is in line with his belief in focusing one's critical attention on the power you might actually have the capacity to influence. I think this approach is pretty dumb in some ways, but it is also a feature of his approach to, for example, modern day Turkey and its Kurdish question. In any case, last I checked Chomsky was still wedded to the two-state solution as the only realistic settlement, so perhaps "non-Zionist" might better describe him than "anti-Zionist", although that's not too important to dwell on. In any case, I don't see how any of this is representative of any kind of antisemitism on Chomsky's part.
 
2cents said:
Ah, I missed the asterisk and footnote on my kindle. I agree the footnote is a problematic framing of the context of the Hebron massacre, although not to the same degree as Cohn. I don't see any problem with framing the violence of 1929 in terms of, and at that point the most serious manifestation of, Palestinian resistance to Zionism, or as Chomsky puts it, to Balfour's "point of view". It's unclear why exactly Cohn does - the Shaw Commission which he goes on to cite favorably reached a similar conclusion.

I'd agree with him that Jewish designs on the Wall, while undoubtedly provocative, were just one element fueling the escalating tensions in Jerusalem that summer, and it's dishonest of Chomsky to leave his brief account at that and omit all mention of Palestinian politics, the Mufti, and the events of the previous summer in the matter. Likewise for Chomsky to emphasize the influence of interwar fascism on the Revisionists while ignoring analogous developments among Arab nationalists of the same era.

I have no opinion on the credibility or otherwise of Vincent Sheean as a witness, but Cohn seems especially troubled by Sheean's linking of events in Jerusalem to the Hebron massacre that occurred days later (and presumably by Chomsky's supposed implication that ultimately Jewish actions in Jerusalem produced the massacre). However, the most recent and thorough account of 1929 (which I highly, highly recommend btw) makes it clear that rumors reaching Hebron and elsewhere from Jerusalem absolutely played a role in the violence:

"The attackers in Jaffa, Hebron, and other places in 1929...were not part of a professional force on a mission and had not been trained as fighters. Rather, they were a large group of people who were driven to act after learning (or hearing rumors about) what had happened in Jerusalem...​
​
...Reports that Arabs had been murdered in Jerusalem reached Hebron on Friday afternoon. Highly exaggerated, the rumors claimed that Jews had killed huge numbers of Muslims...​
​
...The Arabs of Qalunya beset Motza at the very same time that Hebron's Arabs attacked that city's Jews...The hyperbolic rumors [that Jews had attacked Muslims when they emerged from prayers at al-Aqsa Mosque and had killed hundreds of them] incensed the village. The inhabitants began to plot an attack on their Jewish neighbors.​
​
...The skirmishes over the Western Wall and al-Aqsa caused tension and discord in Safed as well. Rumors about events in Jerusalem reached Safed much elaborated, describing a Jewish attack on al-Aqsa and the city's Muslim community."​

More broadly, Cohn presents Chomsky's brief analysis of 1929 as an example of his "anti-Zionism", but it's not clear to me that Chomsky is necessarily an "anti-Zionist". While he is of course scathing in his account of the actions of the early Zionist movement and subsequent Israeli policies, his deepest critique is reserved for the US role in facilitating those policies, and this is in line with his belief in focusing one's critical attention on the power you might actually have the capacity to influence. I think this approach is pretty dumb in some ways, but it is also a feature of his approach to, for example, modern day Turkey and its Kurdish question. In any case, last I checked Chomsky was still wedded to the two-state solution as the only realistic settlement, so perhaps "non-Zionist" might better describe him than "anti-Zionist", although that's not too important to dwell on. In any case, I don't see how any of this is representative of any kind of antisemitism on Chomsky's part.
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree with bolded part, that is not antisemitism. I should have put it into the same category as Zizek criticized him.
 
Raoul said:
A good CNN piece about the growing movement to reestablish pre-2005 Israeli settlements in Gaza.

Click to expand...

These people are sick, but what really amazes me is the gaslighting. That Weiss lady in particular sounds like a dangerous basket case - "We're not cleansing them, they're cleansing us, so we need to re-settle Gaza to stop that". :wenger:
 


e - the stalled Ukraine bill criminalises private donations (like I have made) to UNRWA
 
berbatrick said:


e - the stalled Ukraine bill criminalises private donations (like I have made) to UNRWA
Click to expand...


And then he will give s strong stern look at bad bad bad netanyahu. Who he doesn't phone since last weekend
 
2cents said:
Also some Palestinian polling published yesterday -https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/969
Click to expand...

amazing how politically/nationally/religiously conscious they are. other national struggles have been ended or demoralised much faster and with less casualties.

Sweet Square said:
Depressing reading.
Click to expand...

game recognize game...if israel is to become a project as successful as the US, it needs to do a good cleansing.
a century later they can catch up to the modern US and do the land acknowledgements.
 
Al-Jazeera has just published a leaked drone footage of the IDF executing 4 civilians by bombing them from the drones. They had no weapons on them, the images are so graphic I will not post it here. If anyone wants to see the video, check it on twitter or Al-Jazeera.
 
berbatrick said:
game recognize game...if israel is to become a project as successful as the US, it needs to do a good cleansing.
a century later they can catch up to the modern US and do the land acknowledgements.
Click to expand...
There was tweet a few week back showing a side by side of a native land sales from the 1800’s America and 2024 land auction in the West Bank.

Really bleak.
 
Giggsyking said:
Al-Jazeera has just published a leaked drone footage of the IDF executing 4 civilians by bombing them from the drones. They had no weapons on them, the images are so graphic I will not post it here. If anyone wants to see the video, check it on twitter or Al-Jazeera.
Click to expand...
Imagine what the cameras haven't caught.
 
Giggsyking said:
Al-Jazeera has just published a leaked drone footage of the IDF executing 4 civilians by bombing them from the drones. They had no weapons on them, the images are so graphic I will not post it here. If anyone wants to see the video, check it on twitter or Al-Jazeera.
Click to expand...
Alex Jones posted a tweet about that footage stating that Israel is committing genocide.
 
Idxomer said:


Click to expand...

Finishing what their missile from months ago couldn't.
Giggsyking said:
Al-Jazeera has just published a leaked drone footage of the IDF executing 4 civilians by bombing them from the drones. They had no weapons on them, the images are so graphic I will not post it here. If anyone wants to see the video, check it on twitter or Al-Jazeera.
Click to expand...
Saw it, beyond disturbing.
 
adexkola said:
I lost a few days of my life arguing against someone on here who had the stance that, no you actually can't compare this to apartheid
Click to expand...

Well, that someone doesn't know the meaning of it. He might well say that a chair is called a table
 
U.S. Gaza ceasefire resolution vetoed by China, Russia at UN Security Council

Russia and China on Friday vetoed a U.S. draft UN Security Council resolution which called for an "immediate and sustained ceasefire" in Gaza along with "the release of all remaining hostages" held by Hamas.

This was the fourth time since the war began in October that the Security Council failed to agree on a resolution calling for a ceasefire. This time, the dispute was over the U.S. insistence on linking the ceasefire call to a hostage deal and condemnation of Hamas, rather than the unconditional ceasefire resolution demanded by Russia and China.
Click to expand...
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/22/us-ceasefire-resolution-veto-un-security-council
 
Giggsyking said:
Al-Jazeera has just published a leaked drone footage of the IDF executing 4 civilians by bombing them from the drones. They had no weapons on them, the images are so graphic I will not post it here. If anyone wants to see the video, check it on twitter or Al-Jazeera.
Click to expand...

I have seen another video showing a similar incident, it's beyond sickening. This isn't about Hamas or even revenge, it's a genocidal game for a depraved entity.
 
Idxomer said:
Glad to see the US resolution rejected, enough of this bullshit.
Click to expand...

Has anyone got a link to the exact text? I tried a google, but all I get are articles explaining the substance without providing the source.
 
Hilarious that the UK actually decided to vote in favour, thought they usually tuck their tails in and abstain when it comes to the Palestinian issue. They really do fall in line with the US like the little brat cowering behind the bully.
 
This is the what was in the US draft according to the UN newsticker:

  • Makes imperative an immediate and sustained ceasefire with an “urgent need to expand the flow of humanitarian assistance” to all civilians and lifting “all barriers” to delivering aid at scale to Gazans
  • Israel and all armed groups must comply with their obligations under international law, providing protection for humanitarian workers and medical personnel
  • Condemns all acts of terrorism including the Hamas-led attacks of 7 October, the taking and killing of hostages, murder of civilians, sexual violence and condemns the use of civilian buildings for military purposes
  • Rejects any forced displacement of civilians in Gaza
  • Demands that Hamas and other armed groups immediately grant humanitarian access to all remaining hostages
  • Underscores the Council’s full support for the UN Senior Humanitarian and Reconstruction Coordinator Sigrid Kaag, the Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process and UN Resident and Humanitarian Coordinator, so they can establish the new UN aid mechanism under previous resolution 2720
  • Stressed the importance of the Senior Coordinator leading efforts for the recovery and reconstruction of Gaza
  • Demands all parties respect humanitarian notification and deconfliction mechanisms in place to prevent civilian deaths
  • Rejects any action by Israel that could “reduce the territory of Gaza” and condemns calls from some Israeli ministers for the resettlement of Gaza or demographic changes
  • Reaffirms condemnation of the ongoing attacks by Houthi rebels in Yemen on shipping in the Red Sea
  • Reiterates the Security Council’s “unwavering commitment to the vision of the two-State solution”
 
You must log in or register to reply here.