Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

cyberman said:
At what point can Israel and American authorities be held accountable for war crimes?
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Can't.

The US is not a signatory of the ICC, and does not recognize its authority. There is even a US law on the books that states if a US citixen is tried at the Hague, the country will do everything in its power, including invading the Netherlands, to stop it happening.

They wouldn't do that for any old joe, but Joe Biden, or any elected politician, you bet that they would.

Israel is not a signatory either.
 
Idxomer said:
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It seems a fair assessment. I'm honestly a little thrown and unsettled by the lack of reaction from some in this thread. I can only assume they're ignoring everything but pro-israeli coverage.
 
I thing this event might be the last nail in the coffin of the west's self proclaimed moral superiority.

Portuguese parliament voted yesterday to recognize the state of palestine. The right voted no, the left all voted yes and the good old centrist parties voted no. Now is not the right time apparently.
 
maniak said:
I thing this event might be the last nail in the coffin of the west's self proclaimed moral superiority.

Portuguese parliament voted yesterday to recognize the state of palestine. The right voted no, the left all voted yes and the good old centrist parties voted no. Now is not the right time apparently.
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The issue is if the same vote was held on October 6th, you'd bet your bottom dollar it would be the same outcome. It never is the 'right time'.
 
maniak said:
I thing this event might be the last nail in the coffin of the west's self proclaimed moral superiority.

Portuguese parliament voted yesterday to recognize the state of palestine. The right voted no, the left all voted yes and the good old centrist parties voted no. Now is not the right time apparently.
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Exactly. I will not go too deep in history, but it is a fact that western riches have been built upon numerous genocides, land grabs etc. It's as if they have only made their methods less obvious than five centuries ago.
 
Kaos said:
The issue is if the same vote was held on October 6th, you'd bet your bottom dollar it would be the same outcome. It never is the 'right time'.
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Absolutely, the BE party has taken this issue to parliament a couple of times in the last few years, it always fails because the 2 big centrist parties vote against it.
 
Bosnian_fan said:
Exactly. I will not go too deep in history, but it is a fact that western riches have been built upon numerous genocides, land grabs etc. It's as if they have only made their methods less obvious than five centuries ago.
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I don't like to judge present day leaders for the actions of their past counterparts. But when they repeatedly fail at such obvious things, it's impossible to deny the mentality is still there.
 
The debate about this yesterday in the portuguese parliament reminded me that the first political demonstration I went to was in the late 90s in favor of Timor's self determination and the end of Indonesia's aggression. So many similarities, they also bombed villages, killed people with snipers, etc. No one opposed to calling it genocide back then.

So depressing that we still struggle to recognize all peoples have the right to self determination.
 
maniak said:
The debate about this yesterday in the portuguese parliament reminded me that the first political demonstration I went to was in the late 90s in favor of Timor's self determination and the end of Indonesia's aggression. So many similarities, they also bombed villages, killed people with snipers, etc. No one opposed to calling it genocide back then.

So depressing that we still struggle to recognize all peoples have the right to self determination.
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If there isn't a geopolitical benefit to empowering a people's right to their own land and autonomy, then its a non factor. I always found it amusing how the Israelis are so vocal about insisting on the Kurdish right to a state (note the hilarious hypocrisy), or supporting Iranian protestors. Definitely nothing to do with weakening their Arab/Iranian regional neighbours.
 
Giggsy PO said:
I cannot see the link you posted. Maybe its region restricted. What is the title?
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Its the latest Frontline video (a well produced doc series from the US) called Netanyahu, America, and the Road to War in Gaza. Well worth a watch if you can get to it.
 
Aftenposten (Norwegian news agency) said that the latest (week-old) estimations were 7 700 killed children. That's a huge number on its own, but then my brain made the connection to Anders Behring Breivik's terror in Norway, which killed 77 people, most of them children. That was the biggest national trauma since WW2, and Israel has replicated it at least a hundred times on Palestine in just a few weeks.

It's almost impossible to consider. And it's far from over.
 
berbatrick said:
Firstly, I agree that this situation isn't like the Holocaust. The most resonant image of the Holocaust is the concentration and death camps. Gaza is not yet like that. But there are other actions of Nazi Germany which are a closer comparison, and a Jewish writer got cancelled by German liberals for exactly that comparison*.

Second, I don't get at all the bit in bold. Of course it is their suffering, but a key part of empathy or even of "learning the lessons of history" is the ability to make comparisons and parallels, not atomise every event as singular. For a funny example, in 2009, after the release of Avatar, Palestinians and some indigenous protestors in Central America were seen wearing ridiculous Avatar costumes - there was a common narrative both identified with.

Third, for all the speech policing of the pro-Palestinians, including Jewish people, especially in regard to comparisons, we get gems like this from the mainstream of same country:



Finally, you should read the article he linked, or this one: https://newfascismsyllabus.com/opinions/the-catechism-debate/the-german-catechism/
Neither of them are going to make you a Nazi apologist or whatever harm these articles supposedly do.

*another one is Leningrad, depending on how long this lasts. Just saw on twitter about a child starving to death, which made me remember that comparison.
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Oh no they are making Comparisons again! But don't worry, this time it's the Good Comparisons.

 
Smores said:
It seems a fair assessment. I'm honestly a little thrown and unsettled by the lack of reaction from some in this thread. I can only assume they're ignoring everything but pro-israeli coverage.
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I think most are just desensitised to the deaths and the method of the killings... Doesn't bode well for humans and what we'll be capable of when the wars start over water and arable land in the next decade.
 
Raoul said:
Unfortunately, that's the nature of war. You'd be hard pressed to find one where civilians don't die.
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That's one interesting way to downplay describe the literal and deliberate carnage unfolding right before your eyes.
 
That_Bloke said:
That's one interesting way to downplay describe the literal and deliberate carnage unfolding right before your eyes.
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Literal and deliberate carnage are also synonymous with war. The only difference here is this one is unfolding on twitter, whereas conflicts like Sudan and their 10k dead and 5 million internally displaced aren't. So in the end, the Palestine-Israel war isn't being downplayed, its being artificially promoted far beyond most other ongoing conflicts in the world at the moment.
 
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Raoul said:
Literal and deliberate carnage are also synonymous with war. The only difference here is this one is unfolding on twitter, whereas conflicts like Sudan and their 10k dead and 250k displaced aren't. So in the end, the Palestine-Israel war isn't being downplayed, its being artificially promoted far beyond most other ongoing conflicts in the world at the moment.
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You really want to go down that road? Like, really?

That's not what I meant by "downplay".

The fact the war in Sudan isn't talked about (which is a tragedy) doesn't make the massacre carried out by Israel against an occupied, starved population that has nowhere to go any less repulsive and criminal. If the countless images, reports, and videos filtering out didn't make you budge from your initial stance, and I think that's largely the case, then nothing else will. You can keep on banging on the "unfortunate collateral damage" drum, which is the one the staunchest pro-Israel like the most, in order to downplay the current situation in Gaza, but it won't change the cruel reality.
 
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That_Bloke said:
You really want to go down that road? Like, really?

That's not what I meant by "downplay".

The fact the war in Sudan isn't talked about (which is a tragedy) doesn't make the massacre carried out by Israel against an occupied, starved population that has nowhere to go any less repulsive and criminal. If the countless images, reports, and videos filtering out didn't make you budge from your initial stance, and I think that's largely the case, then nothing else will. You can keep on banging on the "unfortunate collateral damage" drum, which is the one the staunchest pro-Israel like to do in order to downplay the current situation in Gaza, but it won't change the cruel reality.
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Except that's not an accurate representation of what's happening here. This is still fundementally a war between two parties, a new chapter of which was started in 10.7 . No sane country wouldn't respond with overwhelming force if something like that happened to them. Its unfortunate that a lot of civilians are having to pay the price for Hamas' actions, but none of this would be happening had the weaker side not attacked the the far more powerful, better armed side for no viable reason whatever.
 
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