Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Raoul said:
It’s mostly pointless at this point, particularly the security council.
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My personal opinion about the UN has been forged since the failures of the 1990s. The whole institution is nothing but a bunch of overpaid has-beens and blowhards. Better destroy that institution and thus spare loads of taxpayer money worldwide.

Meanwhile, I came across this opinion piece by this Middle-East political expert in Newsweek. I don't think it was shared in this thread before. This man lost an uncle and a niece in Israeli bombings, also has a grandmother without a home and 2 cousins paralyzed for life. He holds the Israeli government and IDF directly responsible for what happened to his family, AND YET he does not receive an ounce of sympathy from those he call as "Hamas enthusiasts" because he and others like him dared to speak out and still speak out against Hamas as a destructive influence for the Palestinian cause. That man is worried about how Hamas's rhetoric is now turning Western apologists into actual Hamas enthusiasts.

Hamas's Western Apologists Have Become Hamas Enthusiasts. As a Gazan, I'm Horrified | Opinion (Newsweek)
 
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Popular celebration of Hamas crimes was taken as proof that Gaza is a legitimate target.
 
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RedDevilQuebecois said:
My personal opinion about the UN has been forged since the failures of the 1990s. The whole institution is nothing but a bunch of overpaid has-beens and blowhards. Better destroy that institution and thus spare loads of taxpayer money worldwide.

Meanwhile, I came across this opinion piece by this Middle-East political expert in Newsweek. I don't think it was shared in this thread before. This man lost an uncle and a niece in Israeli bombings, also has a grandmother without a home and 2 cousins paralyzed for life. He holds the Israeli government and IDF directly responsible for what happened to his family, AND YET he does not receive an ounce of sympathy from those he call as "Hamas enthusiasts" because he and others like him dared to speak out and still speak out against Hamas as a destructive influence for the Palestinian cause. That man is worried about how Hamas's rhetoric is now turning Western apologists into actual Hamas enthusiasts.

Hamas's Western Apologists Have Become Hamas Enthusiasts. As a Gazan, I'm Horrified | Opinion (Newsweek)
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I'd say from a PR perspective (ignoring the actual human suffering of Gazans) October 7th couldn't have gone much better. There was that poll someone posted the other day that more than half of under 25 (I think?) Americans said October 7th was justified in context. Just look at the tone on this thread, it went from a spike of initial horror on October 7th to a thread filled to the brim with not only justifications, but also questioning if October 7th was that bad, and honestly October 7th was just the logical result of the situation, and come one who among us wouldn't have done the same thing? Today this entire thread is just a repository for who can out-outrage who with a random twitter post which may or may not be Russian propoganda but even if it is that's beside the point because Israel.

I'd wager the pro-Palestine movement has never had his much pure support across the world than it does right now. Similarly, Israel's support has dwindled significantly (and rightly given the government's response). At no point in my life - even in acadmeic circles in the early 2000's when negotiations were actually taking place - has the Palestinian plight been more in focus, more prominent in the zeitgeist.
 
Beachryan said:
I'd say from a PR perspective (ignoring the actual human suffering of Gazans) October 7th couldn't have gone much better. There was that poll someone posted the other day that more than half of under 25 (I think?) Americans said October 7th was justified in context. Just look at the tone on this thread, it went from a spike of initial horror on October 7th to a thread filled to the brim with not only justifications, but also questioning if October 7th was that bad, and honestly October 7th was just the logical result of the situation, and come one who among us wouldn't have done the same thing? Today this entire thread is just a repository for who can out-outrage who with a random twitter post which may or may not be Russian propoganda but even if it is that's beside the point because Israel.

I'd wager the pro-Palestine movement has never had his much pure support across the world than it does right now. Similarly, Israel's support has dwindled significantly (and rightly given the government's response). At no point in my life - even in acadmeic circles in the early 2000's when negotiations were actually taking place - has the Palestinian plight been more in focus, more prominent in the zeitgeist.
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I wonder how is possible that with all the political power in europe and US (Rs and Ds)being clearly and unequivocally vocal pro israel.the same for the major outlets that even officially sensor, even fire pro palestine reporters. I wonder how is possible that everyone that has an once of power supports israel any yet you said it yourself. Never had been more support for palestine. Maybe because the truth about israel is so horrible that it cant be masked anymore. Maybe the ethnic cleansing and appartheid that israel had been perpetrating for decades on the dark. Covered up by the official medias is now out on the open because access on social media. Maybe a fecking genocide on the making for everyone to be seen has something to do.

All in favour for israel to do whatever they like, but the truth is not hidden anymore.
 
4bars said:
I wonder how is possible that with all the political power in europe and US (Rs and Ds)being clearly and unequivocally vocal pro israel.the same for the major outlets that even officially sensor, even fire pro palestine reporters. I wonder how is possible that everyone that has an once of power supports israel any yet you said it yourself. Never had been more support for palestine. Maybe because the truth about israel is so horrible that it cant be masked anymore. Maybe the ethnic cleansing and appartheid that israel had been perpetrating for decades on the dark. Covered up by the official medias is now out on the open because access on social media. Maybe a fecking genocide on the making for everyone to be seen has something to do.

All in favour for israel to do whatever they like, but the truth is not hidden anymore.
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That's kind of my point. I do think what Israel has done since October 7th is vastly worse than what preceded it, and strongly believe there was a path under different leadership within Israel that avoided this suffering. For example, just listened to this, and imagine a world where similar Israeli voices had prevailed over Netanyahu: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/08/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-nimrod-novik.html

I think blanket statements about 'Israel' are just as dangerous and wrong as blanket statements about any country. I have to believe that the actions of the far-right and Netanyahu will end that coalition's power for the forseeable future, and hopefully return sane, pro-two-state actors like the one referenced above back into positions of influence. From the Israelis I know (which is obviously skewed because they've all lived outside of Israel) there is little but horror at the past month, and fear of (justifiable) reprisals and also shame.

I hope Netanyahu lives long enough to go to jail not because of his corruption, but in the Hague.
 
4bars said:
i fear that Israel will spread the shitfan in other areas like Lebanon and Syria to cover up the shitshow of Gaza with more news in the cycle. So instead 100% news on Gaza in the conflict, now deviate it to other areas. And if they are lucky lure Hezbollah and try it to make it seem more like a fair fight and pull the victim card that they are surrounded by evil
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No they will not. They can not have two fronts where Hizballah is no Hamas, they are far stronger with estimated 100k rockets/missiles.
 
Making moo points in stupid political discussion trying to make it a complex issue when in fact its very simple. The funny thing is blaming posters here for posting articles, videos or images to document the Israeli murder of the indigenous people of the land and call it " a repository for who can out-outrage with tweets may be or not a Russian propaganda" .
 





They are denying banning the Palestinian FM from talking, but journalists were there thank god and documented it.

 
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Giggsyking said:
No they will not. They can not have two fronts where Hizballah is no Hamas, they are far stronger with estimated 100k rockets/missiles.
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Gaza is not a front. Is a slaughterhouse. And as I said, Hezbollah would sping the news cycle as a "fair fight" against an army, not civilians like Gaza

Obviously i agree with you that is very unlikely, but if the narrative spin out of control of Israel and the support that they weakens, could be a their solution
 
Beachryan said:
That's kind of my point. I do think what Israel has done since October 7th is vastly worse than what preceded it, and strongly believe there was a path under different leadership within Israel that avoided this suffering. For example, just listened to this, and imagine a world where similar Israeli voices had prevailed over Netanyahu: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/08/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-nimrod-novik.html

I think blanket statements about 'Israel' are just as dangerous and wrong as blanket statements about any country. I have to believe that the actions of the far-right and Netanyahu will end that coalition's power for the forseeable future, and hopefully return sane, pro-two-state actors like the one referenced above back into positions of influence. From the Israelis I know (which is obviously skewed because they've all lived outside of Israel) there is little but horror at the past month, and fear of (justifiable) reprisals and also shame.

I hope Netanyahu lives long enough to go to jail not because of his corruption, but in the Hague.
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illegal settlements happened with all governments for the last decades. Since Ben Gurion, any israli government they never had intention to get a 2 state solution. If they were about to settle at the beginning is because Israel had nothing and few years later felt that they were not ready to control the rest of the territory. Once they were sure they had Israel territory secured, the plan had been clear, settle settle and settle. No matter the government.

You can put as many voices as you want, or they have 0 power/swing or they are lying and act different from behind
 
Frosty said:
To be absolutely fair, the State Department immediately denied there were any restrictions placed on Al Maliki. But I am sure people can draw their own conclusions as to who to believe.
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I updated the post. The Saudi FM confirmed it to the press.
 
4bars said:
illegal settlements happened with all governments for the last decades. Since Ben Gurion, any israli government they never had intention to get a 2 state solution. If they were about to settle at the beginning is because Israel had nothing and few years later felt that they were not ready to control the rest of the territory. Once they were sure they had Israel territory secured, the plan had been clear, settle settle and settle. No matter the government.

You can put as many voices as you want, or they have 0 power/swing or they are lying and act different from behind
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The goal of the settlers has been to settle, of course. And it shouldn't have ever been allowed. It's 500k of just under 10 million. That could be absorbed back into the 67 borders, the challenge would be for a governing coalition able to make that argument as one of security.

If you accept that the state of Israel is not going to get up and move at this stage, then any possible solution has to be two-state. Or you can just scream injustices at the world about how the decision almost 100 years ago was wrong.
 
Beachryan said:
The goal of the settlers has been to settle, of course. And it shouldn't have ever been allowed. It's 500k of just under 10 million. That could be absorbed back into the 67 borders, the challenge would be for a governing coalition able to make that argument as one of security.

If you accept that the state of Israel is not going to get up and move at this stage, then any possible solution has to be two-state. Or you can just scream injustices at the world about how the decision almost 100 years ago was wrong.
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You don't have to convince me, but Israel has the power and the plan is clear, as per netanyahu's map with all israel not palestine.
 
Beachryan said:
The goal of the settlers has been to settle, of course. And it shouldn't have ever been allowed. It's 500k of just under 10 million. That could be absorbed back into the 67 borders, the challenge would be for a governing coalition able to make that argument as one of security.

If you accept that the state of Israel is not going to get up and move at this stage, then any possible solution has to be two-state. Or you can just scream injustices at the world about how the decision almost 100 years ago was wrong.
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1 in every 14 Jewish Israelis is a settler. That is not an extreme minority but a rather integral part of Israeli society and, increasingly, its politics. I'm also not entirely clear on whether the settlement number includes the settlers around East Jerusalem, which takes it to around 1 in 10 Jewish Israelis.

Not a single politician, Netanyahu or otherwise, since 67 has significantly moved the needle on settlements. I'm also not sure that you've recently looked at a map of the settlements if you think they could easily be absorbed back into the 67 borders.
 
4bars said:
Gaza is not a front. Is a slaughterhouse. And as I said, Hezbollah would sping the news cycle as a "fair fight" against an army, not civilians like Gaza

Obviously i agree with you that is very unlikely, but if the narrative spin out of control of Israel and the support that they weakens, could be a their solution
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I don't think this makes sense. Israel is not going to start a war with Hezbollah, which has much different long term implications, just because of "narrative" reasons. That would just make both the strategic situation and the narrative itself much worse.
 
Anyone who thinks there are bad or good guys between those two is fecking braindead and delusional. Different sides of the same cnut coin, there is no washing blood from their hands in both conflicts.
 
R'hllor said:
Anyone who thinks there are bad or good guys between those two is fecking braindead and delusional. Different sides of the same cnut coin, there is no washing blood from their hands in both conflicts.
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Absolutely. The only difference is that Russia is less powerful and can't export their worldviews as dominant and mainstream. No doubt they'd be same or probably worse than USA if they were the dominant force though.

Western world hypocrisy is baffling, I'm not sure if these politicians are aware, but all the facade of the values they stand for is now completely gone after Gaza. "Civilized world" turned out not to be so civilized after all. In fact, it is every bit as bad as the rest of the world, it's only its dominant position in worlds proceedings that allows it to show its true colors less often. Obviously not speaking of people here, but of politics.
 
africanspur said:
1 in every 14 Jewish Israelis is a settler. That is not an extreme minority but a rather integral part of Israeli society and, increasingly, its politics. I'm also not entirely clear on whether the settlement number includes the settlers around East Jerusalem, which takes it to around 1 in 10 Jewish Israelis.

Not a single politician, Netanyahu or otherwise, since 67 has significantly moved the needle on settlements. I'm also not sure that you've recently looked at a map of the settlements if you think they could easily be absorbed back into the 67 borders.
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I know it wouldn't be easy, or popular, but I don't really see another option if Israel wants actual security. Then again, I'm not particularly sure that returning to the 67 borders would guarantee such security anyway. I'm 100% sure the actions taken in the last month massively decrease Israel's future security. It's all so stupid.
 
marktan said:
I read that the Gazan health ministry has stopped reporting deaths in the north of Gaza because it no longer has access there. If so I wonder what the true death toll is when accounting for the north and all the missing people. Probably well over 20,000 by now, probably closer to 25,000
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It will be a lot more than reported, there will be a lot of dead bodies under the rubble they weren't able to retrieve. The 20k imo is a very conservative number.
 
2mufc0 said:
It will be a lot more than reported, there will be a lot of dead bodies under the rubble they weren't able to retrieve. The 20k imo is a very conservative number.
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That’s a good point. There will also be quite a few who die as tunnels get flooded, bombed, or sealed off with foam, so the death count could well end up in the 30-50k range.
 
2mufc0 said:
It will be a lot more than reported, there will be a lot of dead bodies under the rubble they weren't able to retrieve. The 20k imo is a very conservative number.
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Not to mention the hundreds of thousands of wounded with no appropriate medical care. Western world completely lost the moral high ground. The problem is that I don't see enough pressure on Israel to stop the bombing and I've read the next couple of weeks will be worse.
 
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