Illuminating thread
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Illuminating thread
First, it is antisemitic to assume that a collection of American-Jews in powerful positions necessarily share and pursue an unspoken common nefarious agenda simply on the basis that they are Jewish, and with the implication that non-Jewish people in such positions would necessarily pursue alternative agendas. I doubt that you or anybody else harbor the same suspicions regarding, for example, the number of Irish-Americans in recent US administrations or disproportionate Irish-American dominance in certain major police departments in the US.
Second, it seems that you are wrong regarding at least some of the examples you have cited there. A quick scan through the GMG Board doesn’t scream “Majority Jewish”, although maybe you’ve discovered something that doesn’t come up on a regular google investigation. Likewise the CEOs of Paramount and NBC Universal don’t appear to be Jewish (makes me question where exactly you read that they are?) Or MSNBC, Fox and CNN (as @africanspur pointed out in an earlier rebuttal of your claims).
Finally, I really hate that I felt prompted to actually google stuff like the ethnic/religious background of these people just to show where you’ve gone wrong, but your repeated claims that powerful Jews are essentially controlling American media and by extension politics are not just false but really, really dangerous, for reasons @africanspur noted. You should really consider the type of people you’ll find nodding along in agreement with such claims, both historically and today.
I get the point you are making and I broadly agree with it not being ideal, but I think it's not ideal to call this kind of stuff "antisemitic."
The reason I don't think that is because pro-Israeli Jews regularly argue that Jewish people should share and pursue a common agenda re: the state of Israel and regularly claim that Jews who fail to do this are not real Jews. But we don't call these people antisemites and probably wouldn't find it very helpful to do so.
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First, why let your own assessment be framed by that type of argument?
Second, stating that they “should” is an ideal and also an implied acknowledgment that they “don’t”. It is also essentially an intra-Jewish debate/discourse, as is the excommunication approach (more rare than you seem to imply).
Finally, the claim that powerful Jews control the media to manipulate the masses is textbook antisemitism. It’s bizarre that this even needs to be stated, it’s on page one of the manual.
It is a spiral of hate and death, this war might defeat Hamas but will create equally or possibly even more people ready to continue the 'fight', exactly as you say.
I watched a documentary about the children in Gaza, they were between 5 and 10 years old all of them. I sat there watching and thinking to myself what dangerous individuals they would grow up to be, the had ptsd, they had seen they friends die infront of them in bombings, some of them already talked about vengeance. Violence will not solve this problem, for any side.
FFS that’s the level of research you’re bringing to this discussion? “Jewish surnames”?
Your issue here is assuming, without a shred of evidence, that those cases are a consequence of the supposed Jewishness of these organizations’ hierarchy and not any number of alternative factors that have been soberly discussed in this thread.
And while it is true that most Jews identify with Israel to some degree, and for a wide variety of reasons, there are huge huge differences among them in regard to that degree.
You previously stated in a now-deleted post that Jewish control of American media undermines American democracy. You have also implied throughout that Jewish power over the media is being wielded on behalf of Israel, something you are clearly opposed to. That’s where “nefarious” comes from. If you were delighted by the idea of Jewish control of the media that would belong to a slightly different category of antisemitic discourse, but that’s clearly not the case.
As for the rest, very few people assume off the bat that powerful Irish-Americans, Korean-Americans, African-Americans or whoever pursue a singular agenda with regards to anything, and certainly not an agenda that is claimed to run counter to the interests of America itself. There are clear, historical reasons why that kind of discourse tends to be reserved for Jewish-Americans,* and if you’re happy to indulge in it in full knowledge of the origins of that discourse then you are, consciously, a fellow traveler of some of the very worst people going.
*(edit): should add also increasingly applied to Muslim-Americans from a section of the American right.
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More targeting of children from the genocidal maniacs.
I'd be disgusted, actually horrified if these people represented my religion. Monsters and murderers of women and children. It's sickening how the World treats Israel.
Treat them like Russia and sanction the shite out of them.
Treat them like Russia and sanction the shite out of them.
Most of the world doesn't accept their actions at any level.
The main problem is with the governments of the countries in blue which actually has a lot of sway on a lot of the ones in grey and even some in green.
That's impossible to do as it would be considered a very antisemitic action to punish the public for the actions of their leaders.
Which is a bollocks excuse as we all know.
I have not called you antisemitic once. I have stated that your pattern of posting on this topic reflects well known and unfortunately influential antisemitic tropes, and I’ve encouraged you to re-consider the basis for these tropes by looking at their origins and the type of people who propagate them. These tropes include the belief in Jewish control of the media; belief in a nefarious Jewish collective agenda; and vague allusions that this agenda is anti-American, i.e. in supporting Israel Jewish-Americans are acting on behalf of their narrow tribal affiliation rather than the broader national interest. You may not be conscious or aware that these tropes have a long and damaging history, and may want to consider for a start the Jerusalem Declaration on antisemitism, a serious effort to conceptualize and provide commonly encountered examples of contemporary antisemitism by a collection of serious scholars.
Both myself and previously @africanspur have very much addressed your “points”. You have repeatedly claimed that the people running all the major media organizations in America are Jewish, and have not provided any evidence for this, while we have both responded by showing that, in many/most cases, they are not. No response from you. In your most recent post on the topic you basically reduced this to the NYT and Guardian. Well I’ve had a look at the Guardian board beyond a quick scan of their surnames and could only find evidence online that two of the fourteen names listed are Jewish. There may be more but I haven’t found evidence for it (and like I said, I really hate that I’ve felt prompted to investigate this). By the way, I did discover that the current editor-in-chief of the Guardian previously co-edited a play celebrating the life of Rachel Corrie, make of that what you will.
You have also stated that the Jewish identity of the people you believe run the media organizations provides the explanation for what you see as the media's pro-Israel agenda. Both @africanspur (directly to you) and myself (in other posts which, in fairness, you may have missed) have argued in response that there are many alternative and more convincing explanations for the reflexively pro-Israel stance adopted by many influential institutions in America, including media and government institutions. These include the general and genuine cultural affinity felt for Israel across the American mainstream, Israel’s historical strategic value to America, the evangelical religious factor, historical American animosity towards Arabs and Muslims, post-Holocaust guilt, and the general success and familiarity of Jewish-America within the broader story of modern America. These would all need to be considered and weighed in order to reach a sober conclusion on the matter. On the other hand, you haven’t shown any indication that you have engaged with these aspects of the topic.
A massacre just happened in Jabalia. I will not share the horrific images. Just go watch it on twitter.
At least he's consistent.
I do not like to be involved in this subject, but how did you prove that?
US intelligence community was not aware of Hamas’ plan to attack Israel, Kirby confirms
https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/03/us-intelligence-israel-hamas-attack-00129774
Most of the world doesn't accept their actions at any level.
The main problem is with the governments of the countries in blue which actually has a lot of sway on a lot of the ones in grey and even some in green.
I was completely oblivious that so many countries in europe do not recognize palestine
Not that I want to wade into this discussion, but you're comparing immigrant groups based on nationality to immigrant groups defined by religion, it's not exactly the same thing.
I did a quick google of the examples he cited throughout the thread and found that, in many or most cases, the CEO or Chairman of the organization in question is not Jewish.
I noticed your post previously included a list of parent companies that own these media organizations that you claimed are run by American Jews. I didn’t have a chance to check it out before you deleted it, but to be clear, it does not actually matter - Americans with Jewish heritage have been, for the most part, a success story in modern America, and many have risen to the top in whatever field of American society they have chosen to engage in. This does not mean they conduct this engagement “as Jews”, or that they pursue a collective agenda on anything.
Many American Jews would not accept that their identity is defined solely by religion. Many are secular and even atheist. Some would say describing Jews as a nation rather than a religious group is a better fit for their understanding of their heritage and identity. Others might disagree. Modern Jewish identity is complex and incorporates a lot more than religious belief, and in any case, those for whom religion is a primary component of their identity adhere to a very diverse range of confessional traditions, including some that are anti-Zionist to varying degrees.
In any case, what difference does it make in terms of the discussion?
Senior US lawmakers review plan linking Gaza refugee resettlement to US aid to Arab countries
The proposal, which reportedly has support from senior officials in both parties, calls on the US to condition foreign aid to Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, and Turkey on those countries accepting a certain number of refugees.
They continue: "The neighboring borders have been closed for too long, but it is now clear that in order to free the Gazan population from the tyrannical oppression of Hamas and to allow them to live free of war and bloodshed, Israel must encourage the international community to find the correct, moral and humane avenues for the relocation of the Gazan population."
The plan even goes so far as to envision how many Gazan residents each of these countries will receive: one million in Egypt (constituting 0.9% of the population there), half a million for Turkey (0.6% of the population in Turkey), 250,000 for Iraq (0.6% of the Iraqi population), and another 250,000 for Yemen (0.75% of the overall population there currently). Each of these countries receives generous financial aid from the US and under the plan, it should continue to be handed out only under the condition that they accept Gazans. It should be noted that the Biden administration opposes the forced removal of Gaza residents from the Strip but has not ruled out voluntary migration for those who choose to do so.
https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/11...tions-aid-on-arab-countries-receiving-gazans/
The proposal, which reportedly has support from senior officials in both parties, calls on the US to condition foreign aid to Egypt, Iraq, Yemen, and Turkey on those countries accepting a certain number of refugees.
They continue: "The neighboring borders have been closed for too long, but it is now clear that in order to free the Gazan population from the tyrannical oppression of Hamas and to allow them to live free of war and bloodshed, Israel must encourage the international community to find the correct, moral and humane avenues for the relocation of the Gazan population."
The plan even goes so far as to envision how many Gazan residents each of these countries will receive: one million in Egypt (constituting 0.9% of the population there), half a million for Turkey (0.6% of the population in Turkey), 250,000 for Iraq (0.6% of the Iraqi population), and another 250,000 for Yemen (0.75% of the overall population there currently). Each of these countries receives generous financial aid from the US and under the plan, it should continue to be handed out only under the condition that they accept Gazans. It should be noted that the Biden administration opposes the forced removal of Gaza residents from the Strip but has not ruled out voluntary migration for those who choose to do so.
https://www.israelhayom.com/2023/11...tions-aid-on-arab-countries-receiving-gazans/
If the number is true, it's roughly double the rate of killing from 10/7-11/24 (15k in 47 days = ~300/day)
Yes I removed the post because earlier today was mentioned the discussion about the media should be moved to the media thread. I will send you the post in a private message. Might be more suitable to discuss it there.
It's the free world countries.
It’s the colonial powers. Israel is just the last settler colonial project still standing.
The one who was working in Gaza is thankfully out now. He's been in some awful situations before in his role with MSF but don't think he's ever been in a situation where he felt the violence was so indiscriminate and that's why he ultimately left.
Obviously most Palestinians in Gaza sadly don't have that option, as happy as I am otherwise for him.
Or rather its the democratic countries that actually matter in the debate because that's where the power is.
They of course have the power, but they are also less than 10% of the world's population.
Russia is also a colonial power but they are not in the mix of the free world.
That's the entire point. There's no such thing as a world government, which means its the powerful states who get to set the agenda. The likes of China and the BRICS also have some degree of power, but are generally agnostic on the issue. The so called developing world where a large swath of the world's population live, don't have any power at all.
The only democracy in the ME, but also the only apartheid state in the world.
Glad he’s ok. I’m sure he must be feeling some sort of survivor guilt. There’s a few medical personnel who have left Gaza feeling it.
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I genuinely seethe at the absolute injustice of this. Not just the injustice by itself, which is after all widespread across the globe. The injustices perpetrated with tacit or explicit approval of the West and vast swathes of its population. The fact that ethnic cleansing is talked about now, not in hushed tones by 'extremists' but by politicians with the power to make it happen, some with the cheek to frame it as a humanitarian effort to help Palestinians and others gaslighting by trying to shut down any talk of ethnic cleansing at all.
Awful stuff.
Sadly there are dozens such countries. Coloniality is prevalent throughout the world, and indigenous peoples suffer every day through normalised violence and oppression.
He's definitely got survivor guilt. The pictures, photos and voice notes he sent were harrowing. Even as a doctor, he's gone way above and beyond what most do to really help those in the greatest need across the world.
He'll feel awful that he can't help at this time of their greatest need. Sadly as I said though the attacks were too indiscriminate and he (and his bosses at MSF) didn't feel there was anywhere they could conceivably stay and continue to do their work safely. A real tragedy as I imagine there are very few doctors left in Gaza with his skillset.