Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

gfactor86 said:
just read the last page in here. People really struggle with the notion that the IDF's intelligence may in fact be correct and that Hamas aren't nice people.
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I don't think you'll find anyone here saying Hamas are nice people. I've read the majority of this thread and don't think I've come across that even once.

As for not believing IDF intelligence, can you blame people for being skeptical considering how many times they've been proven to produce fake material or at the very least, material that doesn't seem genuine when looked into beyond a first glance?
 
gfactor86 said:
just read the last page in here. People really struggle with the notion that the IDF's intelligence may in fact be correct and that Hamas aren't nice people.
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:lol:

Come off it. There's mental gymnastics and then there's this.
 
maniak said:
Could you quote some examples of this?
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I’m not sure what @glazed is referring to, but there was a post on here earlier today - now deleted - claiming (paraphrase) that wealthy Jews control American media and subvert American democracy on behalf of Israel.
 
gfactor86 said:
just read the last page in here. People really struggle with the notion that the IDF's intelligence may in fact be correct and that Hamas aren't nice people.
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I don't trust any military forces or intelligence services, they've been telling fibs since the dawn of humankind. It can be the IDF, the CIA, the FSB or the SIS. How is that related to anti semitism?
 
gfactor86 said:
More agreeing with this just being an anti-Israel echo chamber.

IDF can post some video evidence of something and the first response is "liars" "cover up"
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If they want to avoid that, maybe they should lie and cover up less? Because you're aware that this is something they do a lot, yes?
 
gfactor86 said:
just read the last page in here. People really struggle with the notion that the IDF's intelligence may in fact be correct and that Hamas aren't nice people.
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More nonsense out of you, accusing people of saying things they never have. Not sure why this sort of behaviour is allowed in this thread.
 
2cents said:
I’m not sure what @glazed is referring to, but there was a post on here earlier today - now deleted - claiming (paraphrase) that wealthy Jews control American media and subvert American democracy.
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That's fair, but I assume the moderation is handling those. He's using the words low key, so assume he's referring to something not that obvious that somehow goes past the mods.
 
The introductory sentence "Joe Biden is president of the US" made me chuckle a bit.

 
2cents said:
I’m not sure what @glazed is referring to, but there was a post on here earlier today - now deleted - claiming (paraphrase) that wealthy Jews control American media and subvert American democracy on behalf of Israel.
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Was it talking about AIPAC and ADL?
 
adexkola said:
No, Israel is an occupier because they violate Gaza's border at will, and block Palestinians from leaving their territory by air, sea and land. Egypt only prevents Palestinians from entering their territory (with some exceptions) but they are exercising their rights as a sovereign nation. Israel goes far beyond that.
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Israel is not preventing Gazans leaving via Egypt. Egypt is doing that. This is doublethink. The two countries have the same policy for the same reason. Even the Palestinian Authority has supported the Egyptian blockade. That said, the Israelis don't give two hoots for western moralising on the subject. They see Gaza as a hotbed of Islamist hatred that cannot be reasoned with. They have a point.

maniak said:
Could you quote some examples of this?
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Search back. The use of blood libel resonance in digging up the 'Israel steals Palestinian body parts' story from the 1990s is a good example. There's also a constant stream of low key 'Jews control the media and US politics' comments. Very little criticism of the BBC for taking Hamas claims and videos at face value.
 
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Raoul said:
My understanding is the bottleneck on getting aid in is on the Israeli side because they want to obsessively check cargos and obviously avoid what is being brought in being used by Hamas.
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Are you under the impression there are Israelis at the Rafah Crossing? I don't think that is true. Perhaps you mean something else?
 
Begs the question of how long the management at Shifa hospital and NGOs like the Red Cross and UNWRA have known about Hamas operating in the hospital. Contrary to what they have been saying the whole time
 
This video is from 8 years ago and helps us understand the mentality of some of the Gaza residents. People in the West cannot even imagine doing this kind of thing today. It is so sad that some people grow up with hate, their lives have been actually destroyed by that hate. And some of these people may try to become a real Hitler2, beyond the clothes and the stores. Of course, my opinion is that the majority of US citizens will help make anyone who dreams of actually becoming Hitler2 have the fate of Hitler1.


 
gfactor86 said:
Begs the question of how long the management at Shifa hospital and NGOs like the Red Cross and UNWRA have known about Hamas operating in the hospital. Contrary to what they have been saying the whole time
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What begs that question?
 
gfactor86 said:
just read the last page in here. People really struggle with the notion that the IDF's intelligence may in fact be correct and that Hamas aren't nice people.
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Everytime someone asks you to provide proof of anti-semitism on here you tell them to just read the last couple pages etc, never really providing proof. You should actually show examples of low-key, blatant anti-semitism on here, it would strengthen your case instead of making it sound like you're crying wolf, which most of the time its seems like you are doing.
 
glazed said:
Are you under the impression there are Israelis at the Rafah Crossing? I don't think that is true. Perhaps you mean something else?
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The Israelis have been checking trucks at the Nitzana crossing, after which they head to Rafa.
 
flameinthesun said:
Everytime someone asks you to provide proof of anti-semitism on here you tell them to just read the last couple pages etc, never really providing proof. You should actually show examples of low-key, blatant anti-semitism on here, it would strengthen your case instead of making it sound like you're crying wolf, which most of the time its seems like you are doing.
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as my response above. Wasn't really referring to anti-Semitism. More the anti-Israel echo chamber
 
gfactor86 said:
Shifa hospital was either used to treat or hold hostages. The hospital is run by NGOs, surely UNWRA / Red Cross / WHO, were aware of this?
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They're medical personnel who've taken an oath, they're going to treat injured hostages if Hamas brings them in. That is not the same as Hamas operating in/out of the hospital.
 
Raoul said:
The Israelis have been checking trucks at the Nitzana crossing, after which they head to Rafa.
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Sorry I'm being slow. That's in Israel. How would that affect traffic between Egypt and Gaza that did not originate in Israel?
 
glazed said:
Sorry I'm being slow. That's in Israel. How would that affect traffic between Egypt and Gaza that did not originate in Israel?
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I don't fully understand the mechanics of it, but apparently trucks get inspected at Nitzana as per an agreement between Israel and Egypt. There are conflicting accounts whether that happens before or after they go through Rafah.
 
gfactor86 said:
as my response above. Wasn't really referring to anti-Semitism. More the anti-Israel echo chamber
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Serious? If people are calling out Israel for their bullshit and lies, it's probably not because its' an echo chamber - it's because Israel are proven liars.
 
Raoul said:
I don't fully understand the mechanics of it, but apparently trucks get inspected at Nitzana as per an agreement between Israel and Egypt. There are conflicting accounts whether that happens before or after they go through Rafah.
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Ah thank you.
 

more Israelis calling for genocide...this time with kids
 
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flameinthesun said:
Everytime someone asks you to provide proof of anti-semitism on here you tell them to just read the last couple pages etc, never really providing proof. You should actually show examples of low-key, blatant anti-semitism on here, it would strengthen your case instead of making it sound like you're crying wolf, which most of the time its seems like you are doing.
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Well this one for example. Eliding a 30 year old highly distorted story about Israel stealing Palestinian body parts with a dubious Hamas claim that Israelis are digging up bodies at al Shifa now to imply a connection between the two and then call them nazis and demons. It's just a blood libel with a not very well disguised dog whistle. A constant stream of propaganda from Electronic Intifada basically.

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/isr...more-discussion.438643/page-550#post-31350228
 
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gfactor86 said:
Begs the question of how long the management at Shifa hospital and NGOs like the Red Cross and UNWRA have known about Hamas operating in the hospital. Contrary to what they have been saying the whole time
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:lol: Head down. Plow forward anyway :lol:
 
Raoul said:
If he did care about them, he would be inviting them in during the war wouldn't he (along with a guarantee they would be repatriated after).
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How would he be able to guarantee their repatriation though? Regardless of Sisi and his lack of compassion for anyone other than himself, it's not far fetched to assume that whatever Gazan refugees Egypt take in will never return to Palestine.
 
glazed said:
Because they are fellow arabs perhaps who claim to care about the Palestinians. Israel makes no such claims. As I understand it the Gaza border was open until Hamas came to power. There's no doubt in my mind Israel will at least try to starve the Gazans out. America might make them stop or they might not. Will Egypt really sit by and do nothing if they don't?
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Caring about fellow Arabs? Hardly. Sisi may act to ease public pressure but it is quite another thing to take responsibility for the welfare of 2.3 million people, many of whom will be seething with hatred at Israel. Israel created the Gaza problem in 1948. Madness to think Egypt would solve it for them.
 
2mufc0 said:
That's not true, majority of countries have not designated them as such.
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When the EU, UK, US, Canada, Japan and Australia (plus lots of others) do I'm not sure your point means much, even assuming it is true.
 
Super Hans said:
Israel created the Gaza problem in 1948.
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Exactly so. By existing and winning a war to destroy it that it did not start. You've finally got to the root of it. Well done.

By the way Egypt controlled Gaza from 1953 to 1967. When they attacked Israel and lost.
 
Super Hans said:
Caring about fellow Arabs? Hardly. Sisi may act to ease public pressure but it is quite another thing to take responsibility for the welfare of 2.3 million people, many of whom will be seething with hatred at Israel. Israel created the Gaza problem in 1948. Madness to think Egypt would solve it for them.
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Syria, Jordan and Egypt attacking Israel in 1967 resulted in the situation we see today (obviously not the sole reason) so hard to say they have no responsibility.
 
gfactor86 said:
Begs the question of how long the management at Shifa hospital and NGOs like the Red Cross and UNWRA have known about Hamas operating in the hospital. Contrary to what they have been saying the whole time
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And I'm the conspiracy theorist.
 


Romantic and a realist talk about the conflict and possible solutions. The conclusion, I’m afraid, is that this conflict is gonna drag on for a long time. Proponents of two state solution from each side need to come to a forefront, but October 7th onward is a major setback to that happening.
 
adexkola said:
Apartheid is expensive. It crumbled in SA partly due to the high costs of maintaining a violent police state at home, fighting on multiple fronts against other African states, and dwindling receipts due to embargos. Hopefully in this situation, they're brought to the point of reason through bankruptcy.
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US is already preparing a 14B package. With this type of bankrolling will never happen

SA had UN arms and oil embargo. Quite different scenarios
 
glazed said:
Israel is not preventing Gazans leaving via Egypt. Egypt is doing that. This is doublethink. The two countries have the same policy for the same reason. Even the Palestinian Authority has supported the Egyptian blockade. That said, the Israelis don't give two hoots for western moralising on the subject. They see Gaza as a hotbed of Islamist hatred that cannot be reasoned with. They have a point.
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Tell me which country would accept 2 million refugees? would US? europe? Which economy can face this and not crumble? Are you asking Egypt to feck their country for the actions of Israel?

Also, Gaza is their home no one should have the right to ask them to leave
 
4bars said:
Tell me which country would accept 2 million refugees? would US? europe? Which economy can face this and not crumble? Are you asking Egypt to feck their country for the actions of Israel?

Also, Gaza is their home no one should have the right to ask them to leave
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Wars create refugees. That's true everywhere. Hamas started this one which was a terrible and potentially fatal error on their part. Egypt may not get a choice. One well placed bulldozer and the Rafah Crossing becomes irrelevant.

I don't condone ethnic cleansing but I think that's the Israeli plan and I can see why it would be from a logical perspective. I also don't think it will work in the short term unless the Israelis are far more ruthless than I thought and the Americans are far more patient and Iran and Hezbollah more spineless. In the long term I'm less sure. Gaza might end up as the proverbial boiled frog.
 
glazed said:
Exactly so. By existing and winning a war to destroy it that it did not start. You've finally got to the root of it. Well done.

By the way Egypt controlled Gaza from 1953 to 1967. When they attacked Israel and lost.
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I love your logic, Egypt controlled gaza for 14 years so they are obligated to take in gazan refugees while Gazans who have lived there for over a millennia have no say in the matter. Nice.
 
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