Israeli intelligence is good enough to play out a scene from a movie, calling this one dentist "even when his phone died" and tracking him live to evacuate bomb targets, knows everything about his personal life , but doesn't have the capacity to more selectively target Hamas in a way that doesn't involve killing thousands of children and civilians.
Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less
- Thread starter esmufc07
- Start date
Israeli intelligence is good enough to play out a scene from a movie, calling this one dentist "even when his phone died" and tracking him live to evacuate bomb targets, knows everything about his personal life , but doesn't have the capacity to more selectively target Hamas in a way that doesn't involve killing thousands of children and civilians.
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/07/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-amjad-iraqi.html
As ever, heartily recommended a listen.
As ever, heartily recommended a listen.
Im not asking you to dive into a plethora of criticism. I was specifically responding to your point about how you would criticise Netanyahu (or I guess the Israeli government) if they claim that they're not killing women and children. I don't see the repeated comments about humanitarian crises as any different.
Without that I'd have left it because I don't actually think anybody needs to couch criticism of one side with criticism of the other at the same time.
As for the other point. As I've said, I've heard this kind of argument before, usually used against one group of people. The Jews. Whenever I hear it, I challenge of robustly. It's always the same. Well there must have been a reason why European countries drove them out again and again? There must have been a reason nobody wanted them. Etc etc. Except its now used to refer to the Palestinians instead. It's almost always used in the same dehumanising context. The message is clear. 'Nobody wants them. Not even their closest neighbours and cousins. So what the hell are the Israelis supposed to do with them? They're beyond helping. Only the iron boot can work with them, perhaps to eventually kick them out entirely. After all, if even their Arab cousins can't live alongside them, what hope do we have?'
That might not be your specific intention and I believe you when you say that it isn't. But I would encourage you to think about what you're saying at times and how it comes across.
The thing about other Arab countries and Palestinian refugees has been discussed previously and is of course way more nuanced than just a security concern. Of course there are extremist Jihadi elements within the Palestinian factions. Of course these are amplified a million times by their situation. Of course this will be a factor in howe they are perceived.
It is also very much the case that Arab countries already host literally million of Palestinian refugees. It is also the case that, and I know some on here will struggle to understand this because some struggle to see Israel as a 'bad guy' within this conflict, that they have seen waves of Palestinian refugees/ ethnic cleansing, who find a one way exit out of their homes and are worried that another influx of refugees will be a permanent one, as the others before them have been. That a Gaza ethnic cleansing will eventually become a West Bank ethni cleansing.
Their treatment has also changed with time sadly. In Egypt's case, under Nasser, they enjoyed more rights than any other national group in Egypt. Once Sadat signed his peace deal and became persona non grate for a while in the Middle East I guess, then yes the Palestinians became a nuisance, as Egyptian politicians wanted to 'move on' and avoid the hefty retaliation Israel can mete out if anything arises from your territory. Sisi is a scumbag, who uses the Palestinians as a punching bag for domestic purposes to cover up for the fact that he's almost brought Egypt to its knees. Hamas were an easy scapegoat in this case, who he and others in the media claimed were active in Egypt trying to shore up Morsi's rule (one particularly wild theory was that Hamas and Hezbollah were the ones who released him from prison).
Regardless of such attempts however, it is perhaps the single issue that unifies a very disparate group of people in Arab countries and there are sadly almost no Arab leaders who really represent their citizens' desires properly on this issue.
Anyone who thinks they can keep people under these conditions and live their own lives peacefully is delusional. If my family and my people were living like this, I am not sure what my ideology would be.
Obviously? They have the leverage to tell Israel to knock it the feck off or face the consequences, yet all we're getting is reports that the Biden admin is asking them to cool it a bit. And even then it's only because of optics, because it reflects badly on the US if they let their lap dog run around biting people.
In two months, the same man will come on TV and blast Russia.
America has no moral authority. I don't even think they care. You see why some countries are fed up with US sanction power.
We can't do anything.
Here's 14bn for you so you dont have to worry, just make sure you spent some buying american hardware.
Here's 14bn for you so you dont have to worry, just make sure you spent some buying american hardware.
There's always that dissonance where people recognise war crimes create more terrorists and that unlivable conditions may cause mental illness and violence, yet, retrospectively they focus only on the violent outcomes from these people. They judge them as simply evil because it's easier to process.
Nothing new of course, if you look at any historically oppressed peoples they'll have violently lashed out and then they're judged as a people.
If anyone here can say they'd never resort to extreme violence after having their home destroyed, their entire family wiped out then they're a fool or a liar. It's enough to cause serious psychological issues. The fact you have a section of Israeli's celebrating the events as well.
Hatred is created in extreme grief and misery and that applies to victims on both sides.
Bang on.
Bit fed up of having to read the same things which tars each Palestinian as extreme, or them being 'Islamist' (which is misnomer, but that's a convo for another day). The reality of the situation is that each and every civil liberty of these people has been taken from them. That coupled with the subjugation and dehumanisation they face on a daily basis, plus the indiscriminate killings and violence they suffer means that they either have to suffer in silence and die or at least fight back. And we're not talking about a small period of time. Gaza's been under a blockade for 20 years. The WB under occupation for decades. We couldn't last a week in those conditions.
Thames Water fecked up our water for 48 hours a year or so ago, and we were relying on bottled water in car parks to cook, clean, drink etc. The people here were up in arms...having to rely on that for just 48 hours. Can you imagine living that way for years? Or for some brutal regime to control how much water you get? It's insane.
The irony is they can't rely on the purveyors of justice and freedom (i.e. the West) to fight their cause because they're in Israel's back pocket - so it really is suffer in silence and die or fight back. I know what I'd choose.
Ukraine didn't attack Russia and slaughter 1000s of its citizens?
Israel did, which is why they’re considered to be similar to Russia.
The US cannot tell Israel that it has no right to defend itself from Hamas fighters and infrastructure which very sadly and horribly is embedded in civilian areas.
A ceasefire etc is only going to work when Israel does not feel as threatened by Hamas.
One can hope that Biden is putting the screws on behind the scenes, eg humanitarian relief, and plans to call in more than a few debts after this is over in terms of a viable peace plan.
What else is there?
Since we are making simplistic comparisons for the purpose of moral grandstanding, it seems to me this cycle was kicked off by an unprovoked Hamas attack on Israel, so if anything, the Russian role of authoritarian aggressor against a democracy is being played by Hamas. See how easy this is?
Of course it can.
The US can tell it to not level an entire City and kill 4000 children in the process though, you'd think that be a bit of a given. And preluding all this, they can also tell the Israelis to perhaps not enable settler terrorism and build illegal settlements which undermine efforts for peace instead of - you know, vetoing every UNSC resolution condemning these settlements for example.
Wow, insane
Excellent post and you've perfectly summarized the crux of the issue.
I've been personally exasperated by some people here taking the high road from the comfort of their armchair and sheltered life, and even more by those who keep on pretending that this conflict started on 7/10.
There are victims on both sides whose lives have been and will be utterly broken. Instead of blank checking violence which will beget even more violence in the future, it's about time to concentrate on the root of the disease.
I personally believe that this conflict can't be solved by the two concerned parties alone. There's no balance of power and simply too much bad blood for them to act rationally. The international community has to step in.
There's no other way.
Last edited:
Too right.
The Palestinians are under constant subjugation with no end in sight. I listened to a podcast where the lady said Palestinians in the West Bank can't even post pictures of their dead relatives.
I am not sure I wouldn't l wouldn't pick up arms, living like that.
Ahh yes 'unprovoked', because there's absolutely no reason for Hamas to have been outraged at the treatment of Palestinians in the years and decades prior to their terror attack. They just woke up and chose spontaneous violence on 10.7 instead of celebrating how wonderful life was for Palestinians.
A ceasefire rarely involves the annihilation of one of the parties, there's always a lingering threat and freedom for those who don't deserve it.
If your condition for ceasefire is the annihalation of one side then it's not a ceasefire its a condition on when victory will be declared.
The whole 'Israel has the right to defend itself!" thing is incredibly trite and obnoxious for many reasons, but in this context it doesn't even work.
The U.S. telling Israel "stop bombing Gaza or [X]" does not mean Israel has no "right" to defend itself. That doesn't follow at all.
The U.S. is an ally of Israel. It has its own domestic and foreign interests. It is under no obligation to accept any action that Israel takes even if those actions cause great harm to the U.S.' interests. Israel is not entitled to an alliance and financial resources from the U.S.
As I posted earlier, Biden has already told Netanyahu to cut it out with the bombing in 2021. And the Israelis know and expect that the U.S. could "order" them to stop.
The U.S. telling Israel "stop bombing Gaza or [X]" does not mean Israel has no "right" to defend itself. That doesn't follow at all.
The U.S. is an ally of Israel. It has its own domestic and foreign interests. It is under no obligation to accept any action that Israel takes even if those actions cause great harm to the U.S.' interests. Israel is not entitled to an alliance and financial resources from the U.S.
As I posted earlier, Biden has already told Netanyahu to cut it out with the bombing in 2021. And the Israelis know and expect that the U.S. could "order" them to stop.
Last edited:
No difference between Russia and Isreal in all of this. And this is where US and western support for Ukraine comes to its knees. You cant support Ukraine, a state which have been attacked and its suffering daily due to Russian agression and Israel who's killing thousands of Palestinians with no plan to stop. Just as we heard Russian officials, journalists and what not about nuking US, Britain and who not, we're hearing similar things from Israelis.
Its so incredibly hypocritical by the western powers its disguisting.
Its so incredibly hypocritical by the western powers its disguisting.
Firstly, thank you for taking the time with this response. And I can absolutely appreciate that, particularly in the current volatile and heated situation (an understatement, to say the least), that it's important to be incredibly careful and sensitive to the language used. Particularly online and on a forum where it is easy to post at pace. And - again - I would like to apologize to anyone who inferred my past posts in a similar vein.
Secondly, whenever I've mentioned extremism in past posts I have in no way shape or form meant for this to apply to all Palestinians. Quite the contrary, it applies to a minority who - unfortunately in the case of Gaza in particular - are fundamental in the control of its government and various factions, and have huge influence over civilian life there. They pose a legitimate threat to Gazan civilians and have no interest in a peaceful resolution. You will, of course, find examples of similar thinking in Israel albeit without the same level of command over Israeli civilian life.
There are of course many reasons why this type of thinking has been allowed to grow in these regions. As has been highlighted above in other posts - and most pertinently - if a group of people are treated terribly, terrible ideas will take root. Violence begets violence. There's sadly nothing new in this. Furthermore, Israel has been more than prepared to ensure groups like Hamas and the PIJ grow in influence through years of hindering political and economic growth, and perhaps most importantly, unity between Gaza and the WB. This is one of the reasons why we've arrived at a situation where the PA have lost so much of their influence. That said, just because you can identify the root causes for extreme ideologies, unfortunately this doesn't stop these ideologies from being any less of a legitimate threat.
I'm sorry to keep banging on about Hamas - as Rashida Tlaib noted yesterday in congress, it's important to distinguish a people from its government - but in this instance Israel are at war with them. And as was evidenced on Oct 7 and noted in their charter, Hamas openly hold genocidal aims and the type of society they wish to impose on Palestine mirrors nothing close to the diverse, multi-faith society that existed pre-1948 and before. I would also argue that - as abhorrent as the comments made by Israeli officials dismissing the notion of a humanitarian crisis were - there is a fundamental difference between the downplaying of events and the utter refusal to acknowledge that they ever even happened. To touch on tropes and characteristics of antisemitism that you mentioned, this mirrors a pretty obvious and dangerous one - the utter dismissal and inability to acknowledge Jewish suffering.
No no no, you see this is Hamas' fault obviously. They are the ones making the IDF hold these innocent people in the West bank hostages, and treat them like sub human scum without any sort of dignity. Why cant the Palestinians just accept that and live their life of subjugation? Now they have revolted, and they will be be flattened. If only they had just kept on living like they did prior to Oct 6, there wouldnt need to be such bloodshed now(just periodic killings nothing major).
These settlers are fecking cnuts.
But, I'm so glad that we're finding out in our colleges/uni's/workplaces that who supports apartheid, racism, theft, and mass murder.
But, I'm so glad that we're finding out in our colleges/uni's/workplaces that who supports apartheid, racism, theft, and mass murder.
This 100%
We should as a minimum start boycotting / calling out companies that operate on occupied land or benefit from the fascist Israeli regime.
The founder of MyProtein has divested any holdings from Israeli funds / entities, and Co-Op has recently recommitted to not selling any produce from Israelis on occupied land.
We might have little sway in governmental circles, but where / how we spend our money can make some impact.
The attacks of October 7th are called Operation Al-Aqsa Flood by Hamas.
The name refers to the 2022 clashes in Al-Aqsa mosque/compound, in which Israeli police stormed the mosque to arrest some Palestinians who had been throwing rocks at them. It was an incident that was condemned internationally: Bahrain, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Egypt, Jordan, all complained about this publicly. Israel has been repeatedly asked to stop it with the provocations. They have not:
Ben-Gvir showed up there in January of this year. Hamas said the step was a "red line" he shouldn't cross. Yair Lapid called it "a deliberate provocation that will put lives in danger." He did it anyway.
Jordan was complaining about these incidents as recently as two days before the October 7th attacks.
This thread is reasonably fascinating if nothing else. As time goes on, it is largely descending into virtue signaling imo. Who can out-hate Israel the most, with the most provocative Tweet, latest clip of a radical statement from someone Jewish and so forth. I mean, if that brings you joy, I guess who am I to judge.
The last two pages basically read: not only were Hamas justified on October 7th, if anything we should be shocked that Israel and the world are even that upset about it. If you just read certain posters' comments recently, you'd think that Hamas was doing the world a favour on October 7th, by bringing the much-deserved attention to the Gazan situation, as well as demonstrating that Israel is not all powerful. Well done Hamas, good job all around.
I guess I'm now in the minority, but all I see now are people self-satisfied and none contributing towards any kind of solution or longer-term strategy. October 7th was the f*ck you Israel deserved. And if that has single-handedly ruined the lives of hundreds of thousands of Gazans, ensured there will now no longer be a two-state solution in our lifetimes well that's just too bad. And Israel's fault.
It's geuninely incredible to me. And some of these views were shared on October 7th and 8th, before Israel had done a single act of retribution.
I just find it agonisingly sad. Listening to the dehumanisation and appalling conditions of the Gazans. How both the west and the Arab world abandoned them to Israel's whims. How the far-right of Israel basically just sought to ignore them in their prison city, hoping the problem would just go away via death. Despite that, I have to believe the answer was never an attack like October 7th. Cutting off kids fingers and making the parents watch. Slowly pulling out eyeballs. Deliberately targeting and slowly killing kids at a music festival.
As per the book, violence is a language Israel understands. By all means, attack military targets. Hell, take hostages - that actually worked well for getting concessiosn in the past for Hamas.
If you honestly believe that indescriminately, deliberately and painfully murdering civilains is the answer to the Gazan question, then you can't be that upset about Israel's actions now imo. Because if you believe those acts have purpose, well then bombing an entire building to kill strategic targets is morally similar, if not superior. At least you can point towards the bombing of a building having a military goal. And if you're up in arms about the horrific things settlers have done to Palestinian citizens, well why are you laissez-faire about what Hamas did to Isreali civilians?
Anyway, I shall take my leave now, and hope that somewhere in the real corridors of power some smart people have ideas of how to move the situation forward. Because all I see is that October 7th made it far, far worse.
The last two pages basically read: not only were Hamas justified on October 7th, if anything we should be shocked that Israel and the world are even that upset about it. If you just read certain posters' comments recently, you'd think that Hamas was doing the world a favour on October 7th, by bringing the much-deserved attention to the Gazan situation, as well as demonstrating that Israel is not all powerful. Well done Hamas, good job all around.
I guess I'm now in the minority, but all I see now are people self-satisfied and none contributing towards any kind of solution or longer-term strategy. October 7th was the f*ck you Israel deserved. And if that has single-handedly ruined the lives of hundreds of thousands of Gazans, ensured there will now no longer be a two-state solution in our lifetimes well that's just too bad. And Israel's fault.
It's geuninely incredible to me. And some of these views were shared on October 7th and 8th, before Israel had done a single act of retribution.
I just find it agonisingly sad. Listening to the dehumanisation and appalling conditions of the Gazans. How both the west and the Arab world abandoned them to Israel's whims. How the far-right of Israel basically just sought to ignore them in their prison city, hoping the problem would just go away via death. Despite that, I have to believe the answer was never an attack like October 7th. Cutting off kids fingers and making the parents watch. Slowly pulling out eyeballs. Deliberately targeting and slowly killing kids at a music festival.
As per the book, violence is a language Israel understands. By all means, attack military targets. Hell, take hostages - that actually worked well for getting concessiosn in the past for Hamas.
If you honestly believe that indescriminately, deliberately and painfully murdering civilains is the answer to the Gazan question, then you can't be that upset about Israel's actions now imo. Because if you believe those acts have purpose, well then bombing an entire building to kill strategic targets is morally similar, if not superior. At least you can point towards the bombing of a building having a military goal. And if you're up in arms about the horrific things settlers have done to Palestinian citizens, well why are you laissez-faire about what Hamas did to Isreali civilians?
Anyway, I shall take my leave now, and hope that somewhere in the real corridors of power some smart people have ideas of how to move the situation forward. Because all I see is that October 7th made it far, far worse.
Really the narrative is falling apart now. No one here wants innocent civilians to die. People just repeating the same stuff. May Palestine be free
Agree with most of this. Ultimately, there’s a collective sense of powerlessness to affect anything happening on the ground. The only relevant players in this game are the usual suspects; and ultimately it’s only them who can influence outcomes.
Excellent post mate. This is the reason I have decided not to enter "the discussion" whatsoever (apart from reporting the most disgusting antisemitic posts - which fair to say mods deleted very promptly). And I guess many other people did as well.
The fact that only two African governments, since last I checked yesterday, have merely called back their ambassadors from Israel, is another stark reminder that majority of African states are not only still firmly under the yoke of imperialism, but mainly run by morally and politically corrupt cliques installed by the alphabet soup of western military, intelligence and corporate agencies to facilitate their access to cheap minerals and resources.
You look around at many of the state or corporate run media houses supposed to inform, and barely a peep is mentioned about a people that have been struggling under direct colonial rule for 75+ years and are currently being ethnically cleansed. Those who pretend to cover it give you propaganda narratives that may as well have passed through New York Times or Washington Post editorial clearances, or perhaps given directly from a State Department or AFRICOM regional office. What the Palestinians are going through is a similar struggle to millions of people, who are either being imporverished, starved or massacred by the multitude of the empire's clients littered across the continent.
You look around at many of the state or corporate run media houses supposed to inform, and barely a peep is mentioned about a people that have been struggling under direct colonial rule for 75+ years and are currently being ethnically cleansed. Those who pretend to cover it give you propaganda narratives that may as well have passed through New York Times or Washington Post editorial clearances, or perhaps given directly from a State Department or AFRICOM regional office. What the Palestinians are going through is a similar struggle to millions of people, who are either being imporverished, starved or massacred by the multitude of the empire's clients littered across the continent.
Only major international players with loads of clout can pick sides. Rest need to side with where the power is.
Pure waffle.
1) I'm still yet to see one post justifying Hamas' actions, but that underpins the basis of the drivel posted above.
2) Even putting Hamas to one side - the situation Palestinians live in is inhumane, and Israel hold all the cards. In fact, they've held all the cards for decades and no amount of non-violent protesting, or petitioning has got them to see Palestinians as their fellow human beings.
3) The actions of Israel over the last month have shown clearly that they just want the land, and don't give a shit about how they get it. They'll atomise is day by day in the WB and obliterate the Gazan Palestinians to get it there.
4) Your post is devoid of any context, and if we apply context, we'd know that Hamas didn't appear in a vacuum, nor did the events of the 7th happen in a vacuum. They're a direct response to Israeli brutality and aggression.
5) Most of the participants here, barring a few, are cognisant of the fact that Israel is an apartheid state being backed by a military superpower against a group of individuals that have no army, no navy, and no airforce, and yet are still positioned as 'the bad guys' in mainstream Western media.
6) The lack of two state solution is Israel's fault. How many times does this need to be said?
7) Again, putting Hamas to one side - how can anyone with any shred of decency and morality consider what's happening in the West Bank as normal? If you were really objective and impartial (which you aren't), you could still hold your pro-Israeli view whilst calling out the likes of Ben Gvir, Bibi and Israeli settlers brandishing their own form of terrorism...but this is all by the by to you as anyone that calls this out is 'virtue signalling' and seeing who can 'out hate Israel'.
There's more I can say but your post just screams of "no, it can't be me who is wrong...it must be all these people!". All in all, it's a pathetic post.
Can you point me to the posts that claim "the attacks of October 7th were justified" ?