Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Raoul said:
October 6th ? To my recollection, there was no bombing campaign. The previous, occasional tit for tat rocket attacks which were met by Israeli bombing responses seemed to be the status quo and certainly in no way justified 10-7 (and that includes the alleged Hamas justification for Israelis going into al-aqsa).
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I'm not talking about justification of Oct 7th, not sure why you've mentioned that.

Do you condemn Israel for bombing the shit out of Gaza and terrorising the West Bank in the decades prior to October 7th? That's what I'm asking.
 
Iker Quesadillas said:
Raoul, maybe this is just semantics, but I don't see how Hamas can "bring all the death and destruction we are seeing today" and for there to be any space left to condemn Israel. Condemn them for... the deaths that Hamas brought?
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It all goes back to the disparity of power. Israel have all the power and all the weapons, therefore if Hamas wanted to govern Gaza (let's assume for the sake of argument they were serious about wanting to improve conditions for Palestinians in Gaza), then they would've known that any militant activity from their end would be perpetually met with an overwhelming response. Therefore, the only way to avoid a violent response would have been moderate their ways and not engage in violence - a rather paradoxical proposition given that they literally exist to fight (and exterminate) the Israelis. Therefore, given the lopsided power differential and Hamas' inability to be a stable, peaceful organization focused on proper governance and economic development, they have through 10-7, finally made the final wrong move that will lead to them being checkmated.
 
Raoul said:
I think you'll find that many are reluctant to go negative on Hamas because they view them as a necessary counterweight to Israeli power in the area. This is why you keep hearing the "history didn't begin on 10-7" line; it allows them to tacitly link Hamas' terrorist attack against Israel as a legitimate act of a longer term dispute between both sides, without the inconvenience of admitting that it was actually Hamas' actions a month ago that has led to the invasion of Gaza and every knock on effect such an invasion would entail.
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This is nonsense. Nobody sees Hamas as a direct counterweight to Israeli power. There is no direct counter weight to Israeli power because they are a regional superpower, able to strike basically all the countries around them at will, without any concern for any blowback.

Nobody on here supports Hamas or its actions ffs. Your posting on here is a microcosm of the USA on this conflict.
 
The Corinthian said:
I'm not talking about justification of Oct 7th, not sure why you've mentioned that.

Do you condemn Israel for bombing the shit out of Gaza and terrorising the West Bank in the decades prior to October 7th? That's what I'm asking.
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Yes, and I just did in an earlier post on this very page. The knowingly indiscriminate bombing in areas where there are lots of civilians should be pushed back on, even if there are plain clothed Hamas members among them or in bunkers below.
 
Raoul said:
The appropriate response would be to condemn the Hamas attacks and acknowledge that the overall existence and practices of Hamas in Gaza has brought all of the death and destruction we are seeing in Gaza today. The Israelis should likewise also be condemned for their "shoot first, think later" approach of bombing the hell out of Gaza, as opposed to a traditional counterinsurgency. They should also be condemned for the appalling behavior of settlers killing and intimidating Palestinians in the WB. Both sides should be apportioned responsibility for their actions, which is a good starting point from which to proceed.
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But people have condemned Hamas attacks. The only point of contention in this thread is the role of Israel and israeli extremists in the overall context, that's why Israel, the far right and settlers have been mentioned a lot because people keep justifying Israel's actions and ignoring Israelis daily crimes which predates 7/10 and are key to potential peace.

Hamas is a terror organization, they are criminals and there is no context where they should be seen as respectable partners in any agreement, that point is largely accepted and set in stone, the issue is that the same apply to a number of organizations and people on the other side of the table and many refuse to acknowledge it which creates more discussions because for some reason crimes against palestinians are either ignored or downplayed.

It's imperative that we agree on the fact that Hamas is a terror organization and that Israel has its own terror groups. And that both need to be dealt with, otherwise no peace is possible.
 
africanspur said:
This is nonsense. Nobody sees Hamas as a direct counterweight to Israeli power. There is no direct counter weight to Israeli power because they are a regional superpower, able to strike basically all the countries around them at will, without any concern for any blowback.

Nobody on here supports Hamas or its actions ffs. Your posting on here is a microcosm of the USA on this conflict.
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Many in this debate do. You need look no further than a random sampling of Twitter posts and in protests for overwhelming evidence that is 100% accurate.
 
Kaos said:
So we conveniently ignoring the Palestinian status quo then? The occupation, the settler terrorism, the WB apartheid, the suffocating Gaza blockade? Where was the appropriate condemnation and action in response to that? Or do we just consider that to be a palatable status quo.
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Terrible as it was, the so called "status quo" doesn't justify 10-7 though does it. The settler issue is a totally different subject unrelated to Hamas, for which the Israelis should be criticized.
 
nickm said:
The US cannot tell Israel that it has no right to defend itself from Hamas fighters and infrastructure which very sadly and horribly is embedded in civilian areas.

A ceasefire etc is only going to work when Israel does not feel as threatened by Hamas.

One can hope that Biden is putting the screws on behind the scenes, eg humanitarian relief, and plans to call in more than a few debts after this is over in terms of a viable peace plan.

What else is there?
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How is cutting water and power defending itself? How is bombing reserve water tanks defending itself? How is bombing ambulances defending itself? How is bombing bakeries and fishing boats defending itself? How is targetting journalists in their homes defending itself?

They aren't defending themselves, they're collectively punishing the people of Gaza for the actions of Hamas.

You have to be a special kind of neolib to even begin to believe that what Israel is doing falls under self-defense.

Was it self defense when they shot Shireen Abu Akleh? When they attacked her funeral procession? When they shot Rouzan al-Najjar? And hundreds of others during the Great March of Return?

Israel's never needed an excuse to murder Palestinians, whether they're journalists, nurses, minding their own business or attacking Israeli police/military. Why, all of a sudden, do some so willingly believe that this time it's actually about self-defense?

They've realised that they need to get rid of Hamas, and if they went about it in a way that didn't leave thousands upon thousands of Paleatinians killed, and dozens of thousands maimed, physically and emotionally, I'd have no problem with that. But they aren't, so I do.
 
Raoul said:
The appropriate response would be to condemn the Hamas attacks and acknowledge that the overall existence and practices of Hamas in Gaza has brought all of the death and destruction we are seeing in Gaza today. The Israelis should likewise also be condemned for their "shoot first, think later" approach of bombing the hell out of Gaza, as opposed to a traditional counterinsurgency. They should also be condemned for the appalling behavior of settlers killing and intimidating Palestinians in the WB. Both sides should be apportioned responsibility for their actions, which is a good starting point from which to proceed.
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OK great. As I said, Hamas are scum. Their 10-7 attack was deplorable on a moral level and indeed on a practical level for Gazan inhabitants. They are (rightly) proscribed as a terrorist organisation by anyone important and widely reviled.

Now can you point me to the condemnation for the Israeli shoot first ask questions later approach? Can you show me the condemnation of the settlers? Can you point me to any actual concrete steps the important power brokers have taken to sanction Israel with regards to them? Considering that currently 1 in every 10 Jewish Israeli is currently a settler and they sit in government?
 
Raoul said:
Yes, and I just did in an earlier post on this very page. The knowingly indiscriminate bombing in areas where there are lots of civilians should be pushed back on, even if there are plain clothed Hamas members among them or in bunkers below.
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But here you're talking about Israel's response post October 7th? Or am I mistaken?
 
Raoul said:
Many in this debate do. You need look no further than a random sampling of Twitter posts and in protests for overwhelming evidence that is 100% accurate.
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This whole conversation was started by a poster coming in, making wide sweeping statements about the posters on this thread and how they are virtue signalling, have no solution to anything (while themselves avoiding answering any question about what their solution is) etc etc. They didn't mention about the general conversation on twitter or protests.
 
Beachryan said:
Ha, because you've gone personal let's do this:
1. I apologise, when one reads things like "The reality of the situation is that each and every civil liberty of these people has been taken from them. That coupled with the subjugation and dehumanisation they face on a daily basis, plus the indiscriminate killings and violence they suffer means that they either have to suffer in silence and die or at least fight back." one could begin to think perhaps said 'fighting back' is being 'justified'. That must be my poor handling of the language.
2. No disagreement there.
3. I'm not sure all of Israel wants that, but certainly the far right fringe does.
4. Not one post is justifying Hamas actions. "Hamas didn't appear in a vacuum, nor did the events of the 7th happen in a vacuum. They're a direct response to Israeli brutality and aggression." Again, my poor understanding of the language, clearly.
5. No disagreement there.
6. Utterly absolving all responsibity of the Arab world on the two-state conundrum is naive at very best, deliberately obtuse I'd say.
7. Totally agree, it's immoral, it's horrible and the world should be looking to fix it. I despise Netanyahu, hate what the settlers do and have dreaded what the reaction to October 7th would be.

My position is very simple: Israel's treatment of Gazans is abhorrent, and it should be condemned for it. Other powers - including the Arab ones that happily ignore it - should be considering this a major issue of any foreign policy agenda. Israel's reaction to October 7th is disgusting, irrational, unnecessary, predictable and deplorable. I've said this over and over.

BUT. What Hamas did on October 7th did more to damage the lives of Gazan Palestinians than anything in the last 15 years. On top of that, it was barbaric and brutal in a way that fortunately virtually no conflicts on Earth are anymore. And because an organisation acted in that way, I do judge it, as an organisation, regardless of the situation that led to it.
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No, Israeli bombs have done more damage.

Your posts come off quite hypocritical. You are saying in your point number 4 that you can't justify Hamas's attack on the innocent civilians of Israel based on the crimes Israel have done to Palestinians before which is true. But at the same time are justifying Israel's killing of Innocent civilians by blaming it on Hamas's attack on the 7th. You judge Hamas regardless of the situation that led to it but refuse to do the same to Israel....

Both Hamas and The state of Israel deserve to be condemned for their killing of innocent civilians regardless of the events that led up to them.
 
Raoul said:
Terrible as it was, the so called "status quo" doesn't justify 10-7 though does it. The settler issue is a totally different subject unrelated to Hamas, for which the Israelis should be criticized.
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Where did I suggest justification for it? I'm not talking about 10.7. I'm asking what should have been done prior to 10.7 to ensure Israel ceases its occupation, settler terrorism, blockade and WB apartheid?
 
africanspur said:
This whole conversation was started by a poster coming in, making wide sweeping statements about the posters on this thread and how they are virtue signalling, have no solution to anything (while themselves avoiding answering any question about what their solution is) etc etc. They didn't mention about the general conversation on twitter or protests.
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Indeed, this thread was the specifically mentioned context.
 
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Raoul said:
Terrible as it was, the so called "status quo" doesn't justify 10-7 though does it. The settler issue is a totally different subject unrelated to Hamas, for which the Israelis should be criticized.
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It doesn't justify 10-7 no. The attacks were abhorrent.

The settler issue however is not a totally different subject, nor do Gazan Palestinians no longer pay attention to what's happening in the West Bank and vica versa.
 
Kaos said:
Where did I suggest justification for it? I'm not talking about 10.7. I'm asking what should have been done prior to 10.7 to ensure Israel ceases its occupation, settler terrorism, blockade and WB apartheid?
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I don't know if there was a solution to the situation given the levels of extremism both sides have been pushed into over the years. What I am 100% sure of is that the Hamas attack on Israelis last month wasn't a remedy to previous lack of progress. In some ways however, it may have finally, sufficiently dislodged the status quo to where the elimination of Hamas and the impending domestic downfall of Netanyahu, may improbably wind up allowing both sides to reboot their relationship with new leadership.
 
Raoul said:
Terrible as it was, the so called "status quo" doesn't justify 10-7 though does it. The settler issue is a totally different subject unrelated to Hamas, for which the Israelis should be criticized.
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Do the actions of Hamas on 7th October justify Israel’s response? In your opinion?
 
Raoul said:
A post critical of both sides is by definition balanced. Now, on the other hand, if one is only interested in posts that are critical of Israel, whilst absolving Hamas of any responsibility, then I can see how one would feel such a post wouldn't be balanced.
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Why do you keep mentioning people absolving Hamas? A few other posters have raised the same point to you, asked you to show posts where people have absolved, praised, supported Hamas and you haven't provided one. Instead you keep pushing that strawman. Additionally, the reason people are focusing on Israel right now is because Israel is the ones currently carrying out the atrocities. If a ceasefire occured it would give people the opportunity to take a step back and focus on both sides, but at the moment its really only one side doing the killing since Oct 7th.
 
ZupZup said:
Do the actions of Hamas on 7th October justify Israel’s response? In your opinion?
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They certainly more than justify an Israeli response of removing Hamas, however they don't justify needlessly endangering civilians in the process. This is where the Israelis have made a mess of things. They are behaving emotionally instead of strategically, and are generally making it up as they go, which is the wrong way to go about it.

If one wants to take out Hamas, there is a slow, methodical way to go about it through a house to house insurgency that doesn't involve daily airstrikes on infrastructure.
 
Fair play to some of you for spending the time to respond to some of the absolute warmongering nonsense being posted the last few days.
 
flameinthesun said:
Why do you keep mentioning people absolving Hamas? A few other posters have raised the same point to you, asked you to show posts where people have absolved, praised, supported Hamas and you haven't provided one. Instead you keep pushing that strawman. Additionally, the reason people are focusing on Israel right now is because Israel is the ones currently carrying out the atrocities. If a ceasefire occured it would give people the opportunity to take a step back and focus on both sides, but at the moment its really only one side doing the killing since Oct 7th.
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It's just one of those weird things.

There have been posts in this thread that have come close to 'justifying' the Hamas attacks. I can see why a person could have a negative reaction to this.

But on the pro-Israeli side, people haven't merely flirted with justifying Israeli actions. They've openly done so. Multiple people on this thread have posted that if all this carnage is what it takes to feel safe, then they accept it. Another person asked whether ethnic cleansing would really be all that bad.
 
VorZakone said:
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And these are precisely the introspective, poignant questions they should be asking, beyond the emotional, blood-frenzied approach of 'destroy destroy destroy' without a consideration for either the human cost, nor the lasting legacy.
 
VorZakone said:
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If the middle bit is true, then Hamas have been successful in getting the issue back in the news. Unfortunately for them, its come at a cost of their own demise.

Also, this bit was interesting.

the attack stemmed from a growing sense that the Palestinian cause was being pushed aside, and that only drastic action could revive it.
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Some new poll numbers:

Americans are divided on how they feel about Israel’s response to Palestinian militant group Hamas’s surprise Oct. 7 attack, according to a survey released Wednesday.

Democrats were more likely to say the U.S. is providing Israel with too much support and not enough support for Palestinian civilians in Gaza, while Republicans said the opposite.

Still, the public generally agrees that Hamas is to blame for the conflict; 66 percent of respondents attribute a lot of the responsibility to the militant group, which has been declared a terrorist organization by the U.S. and others, for the war, while 35 percent put the blame on the Israeli government.

About 40 percent of the survey’s respondents say Israel’s response to Hamas has “gone too far,” while 38 percent say it’s been about right. More than half of Democrats, 58 percent, think the response has been too much, while 18 percent of Republicans say the same.

https://apnorc.org/projects/as-the-israel-palestine-conflict-escalates-more-see-israel-as-an-ally/
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Iker Quesadillas said:
I don't think anyone here is disputing that the last month was a major inflection point that will ultimately lead to the demise of the attackers.
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I believe that it will lead to a new generation of terrorists and an even greater threat to Israel.

12,000+ Palestinians killed so far. The vast majority innocents and half children. It will only lead to further hatred towards Israel for generations to come.
 
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