Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Raoul said:
Its also worth noting how much of a perception game this conflict is in the age of social media, where phrases and imagery can easily sway public opinion in one direction or another. So in that respect, its not entirely surprising some are debating the actual meaning of words.
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Seen a few bits lately that Israel have already lost the public perception battle, everybody thinks they are war criminals etc anyway, so there’s no motivation left for them to pause or let up. May as well just completely crush hamas now.
 
owlo said:
Hope these idiots realise that videos like this simply harden Israeli resolve and justify the larger use of fires and other obscene tactics in the eyes of the world as ground ops are dangerous.

Also, they posted that video of trophy intercepting their atgm, and even freeze framed it so you could see it was an intercept. Smart lads.
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What on earth are you talking about?

Do you think occupier resolve would be softened if Hamas didn't have a media wing?
 
owlo said:
Hope these idiots realise that videos like this simply harden Israeli resolve and justify the larger use of fires and other obscene tactics in the eyes of the world as ground ops are dangerous.

Also, they posted that video of trophy intercepting their atgm, and even freeze framed it so you could see it was an intercept. Smart lads.
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Because what? They took out some invading, cutting edge, tanks with weaponry that's existed since the end of WW2?
 
owlo said:
Seen a few bits lately that Israel have already lost the public perception battle, everybody thinks they are war criminals etc anyway, so there’s no motivation left for them to pause or let up. May as well just completely crush hamas now.
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If they are, its because of their own heavy handed tactics of going after Hamas in areas where they know civilians are co-located, as there's a direct relationship between the spectacle of civilian deaths on social media and with regional and global protests about what is happening, which then puts pressure on various western leaders seek policy concessions from the Israeli side. Therefore they should be incentivized to switch from their initial "bull in a china shop" approach to more of a counterinsurgency, which must be accompanied with humanitarian corridors, the allowance of basic necessities in through Rafa, and continued negotiation channels through the Qataris.
 
Raven said:
Because what? They took out some invading, cutting edge, tanks with weaponry that's existed since the end of WW2?
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Because they are showing themselves to be a dangerous enemy capable of hurting them and advertising it to the world.

adexkola said:
What on earth are you talking about?

Do you think occupier resolve would be softened if Hamas didn't have a media wing?
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I think it creates a justification and a resolve for more barbaric tactics. They are already being extremely cautious, and if that doesn't prove to be enough, why not flood the area with MLRS and arty first. They've already ordered an evacuation there.

And if it ever does get to an international court, it's certainly significant evidence.

Raoul said:
If they are, its because of their own heavy handed tactics of going after Hamas in areas where they know civilians are co-located, as there's a direct proportionality between the spectacle of civilian deaths on social media, with regional and global protests about what is happening. Therefore they should be incentivized to switch from their initial "bull in a china shop" approach to more of a counterinsurgency, which must be accompanied with humanitarian corridors, the allowance of basic necessities in through Rafa, and continued negotiation channels through the Qataris.
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Yep. They've fecked up. Said it from the start of the first air strikes. That said, there's no incentive now for them to give a pause and let Hamas regroup. And videos like the above show that any sort of counterinsurgency like campaign would be extremely costly to them, and they seem quite intent on avoiding their soldiers deaths, even at the expense of Palestinians civilians. The attitude is, you brought this on yourself. Surrender and release the hostages or we won't stop until you're all dead. Right now, they have nothing more to lose. They've lost 1300 of their people because they are useless at intel. Bombed the wrong targets because they are useless at ISR. And posted childish memes on social media as they kill disproportionately. As well as left diaspora Jews high and dry. They have played this all wrong, at every step. Probably because the government is so completely incompetent and busy pandering to the right.

All that said, they've no choice now. And they've obviously been allowing fuel and stuff in for the desalinization and hospitals. I don't know you incentivize them to essentially let Hamas kill more of their soldiers.
 
owlo said:
Because they are showing themselves to be a dangerous enemy capable of hurting them and advertising it to the world.



I think it creates a justification and a resolve for more barbaric tactics. They are already being extremely cautious, and if that doesn't prove to be enough, why not flood the area with MLRS and arty first. They've already ordered an evacuation there.

And if it ever does get to an international court, it's certainly significant evidence.



Yep. They've fecked up. Said it from the start of the first air strikes. That said, there's no incentive now for them to give a pause and let Hamas regroup. And videos like the above show that any sort of counterinsurgency like campaign would be extremely costly to them, and they seem quite intent on avoiding their soldiers deaths, even at the expense of Palestinians civilians. The attitude is, you brought this on yourself. Surrender and release the hostages or we won't stop until you're all dead. Right now, they have nothing more to lose. They've lost 1300 of their people because they are useless at intel. Bombed the wrong targets because they are useless at ISR. And posted childish memes on social media as they kill disproportionately. As well as left diaspora Jews high and dry. They have played this all wrong, at every step. Probably because the government is so completely incompetent and busy pandering to the right.

All that said, they've no choice now. And they've obviously been allowing fuel and stuff in for the desalinization and hospitals. I don't know you incentivize them to essentially let Hamas kill more of their soldiers.
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This is bonkers, everyone knows that Hamas have RPGs and are capable of using them.
 
Raven said:
This is bonkers, everyone knows that Hamas have RPGs and are capable of using them.
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And the how deadly/effective they are is baked into each proportionality assessment. If a cell is deemed capable or likely capable to ambush soldiers, then more civilian casualties are deemed acceptable to neutralise them. A particularly virulent unit could easily justify mlrs barrages pre engagement by ground forces, given an evacuation order has been issued for the area.
 
Roane said:
No.

However it was part of a larger conversation with a person who has reiterated certain points throughout the various conversations.

I can see why you have formed a certain understanding based on the post you quoted.
Every country, every individual, has a right to protect/defend themselves. It is, imo, fair to question what it is that is being defended.
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I don't agree with this in the context of this conflict. The entire world agrees Israel has been committing war crimes against the Palestinians for decades. Israel has never agreed to the internationally agreed terms for resolving the conflict. But even if we accept that under Barak and Olmert there were genuine (albeit brief) good-faith efforts to resolve it, for 15 years there has been no interest whatsoever under Netanyahu. Leaving aside the exact nature of the Hamas attack, was it inevitable that resistance to the status quo would occur (and has occurred before)? If the answer is yes, that resistance was inevitable due to Israeli policies, what right does Israel have to respond the way it has?
 
nickm said:
Well, that rather depends on who is doing the listening, which is the point. Activists/People/Marchers are using phrases that can be interpreted, due to their provenance, as intimidatory to jewish people who live here, at a particularly sensitive moment. Isn't that worthy of being pointed out too, by the people who are feeling intimidated. Don't they deserve a hearing?

How about people don't use a phrase that can be interpreted either as the desirability of Israel grinding its boots into Palestinian faces, or as the desirability of Israel being eliminated by Palestinians. FFS, can't people use their brain?
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Can you control 100k person. Ffs these are huge marches. There will always be idiots and racists among them. Racist donkeys are not exclusive to one race or religion.
 
Saw some videos of IDF troops beating and humiliating Palestinian captives, and soldiers and civilians desecrating the bodies of killed Palestinians.

It's not any prettier than the shit Hamas pulled on 7/10.
 
The quote by the deputy minister referencing the George Floyd protests is disgusting as its Israel that has their knee on the Palestinians neck. The entire response and attitude of the UK government just reeks of colonialism.
 
Halftrack said:
Saw some videos of IDF troops beating and humiliating Palestinian captives, and soldiers and civilians desecrating the bodies of killed Palestinians.

It's not any prettier than the shit Hamas pulled on 7/10.
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Which is the lie that the Israel government, US/UK and some in here like to parrot. That somehow Hamas is the only one that commited war crimes, when the reality is Israel has been an continues to commit war crimes. Its hard to feel sympathy for a country that doesnt show sympathy to another.
 
nickm said:
I think it is possible for some of us - and I grant you, not everyone - to debate more than one thing at a time.
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The focus on semantics seems like just another form of whataboutery to me. This is not a specific criticism of this forum more a comment on the attempts at false equivalence being utilised as a distraction.
 
The health ministry of the Palestinian Authority, which is based in the West Bank, has put out new figures on the impact of the the war in Gaza. It says:

  • More than 50% of Gaza's housing units have been destroyed
  • Nearly 70% of its population are displaced
  • 16 out of 35 hospitals that can take in-patients have stopped functioning
  • 42 UNRWA buildings have been damaged
  • At least seven churches and 55 mosques are damaged
As we reported earlier, Israel accuses Hamas of locating infrastructure in tunnels underneath civilian areas.

Israel says it has struck more than 11,000 "targets belonging to terrorist organisations"in Gaza and dropped more than 10,000 munitions on Gaza City alone since 7 October, when it began its campaign in retaliation for Hamas's deadly attacks.



Incredible suffering.
 
Halftrack said:
Saw some videos of IDF troops beating and humiliating Palestinian captives, and soldiers and civilians desecrating the bodies of killed Palestinians.

It's not any prettier than the shit Hamas pulled on 7/10.
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I don't like sharing these things currently because people will think that it's in retaliation of Oct 7th when it's just normal behavior. Here you have what happened recently, here you have an older example from 2023 and here you have an other example of how palestinians are treated.
 
Halftrack said:
Saw some videos of IDF troops beating and humiliating Palestinian captives, and soldiers and civilians desecrating the bodies of killed Palestinians.

It's not any prettier than the shit Hamas pulled on 7/10.
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It's typical behaviour, we've seen it all before as @JPRouve just pointed out.
 
JPRouve said:
And I should add that IDF is a moral mess in general including against israelis and their own female members.

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-691641
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MST is common for every military, especially amongst females, and is far from exclusive for Israel. Every military needs to get a grip on it, and are generally slowwalking it.

We get it, you're blinded by hate and think Israel and the IDF are morally bankrupt organisations. All you're trying to do is ferment hatred inside an echo chamber, not to have good faith discussion. Good job.
 
africanspur said:
The health ministry of the Palestinian Authority, which is based in the West Bank, has put out new figures on the impact of the the war in Gaza. It says:

  • More than 50% of Gaza's housing units have been destroyed
  • Nearly 70% of its population are displaced
  • 16 out of 35 hospitals that can take in-patients have stopped functioning
  • 42 UNRWA buildings have been damaged
  • At least seven churches and 55 mosques are damaged
As we reported earlier, Israel accuses Hamas of locating infrastructure in tunnels underneath civilian areas.

Israel says it has struck more than 11,000 "targets belonging to terrorist organisations"in Gaza and dropped more than 10,000 munitions on Gaza City alone since 7 October, when it began its campaign in retaliation for Hamas's deadly attacks.



Incredible suffering.
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. Those are horrific numbers. Is that in Gaza city or the entire region? I wish some journo could directly ask biden why neither mercy or comfort have even been moved to theater. It's not like they wouldn't be adequately defended.
 
UN official: average Palestinian in Gaza living on two pieces of bread a day

The average Palestinian in Gaza is living on only two pieces of bread every day, according to a UN official.

The Associated Press reports:

The average Palestinian in Gaza is living on two pieces of Arabic bread made from flour the United Nations had stockpiled in the region, yet the main refrain now being heard in the street is “Water, water,” the Gaza director for the UN agency for Palestinian refugees said Friday.

Thomas White, who said he traveled “the length and breadth of Gaza in the last few weeks,” described the place as a “scene of death and destruction.” No place is safe now, he said, and people fear for their lives, their future and their ability to feed their families.

The Palestinian refugee agency, known as UNRWA, is supporting about 89 bakeries across Gaza, aiming to get bread to 1.7 million people, White told diplomats from the UN’s 193 member nations in a video briefing from Gaza.

But, he said, “now people are beyond looking for bread. It’s looking for water.”

UN deputy Mideast coordinator Lynn Hastings, who is also the humanitarian coordinator for the Palestinian territories, said only one of three water supply lines from Israel is operational.

“Many people are relying on brackish or saline ground water, if at all,” she said.

From The Guardian liveblog
 
owlo said:
MST is common for every military, especially amongst females, and is far from exclusive for Israel. Every military needs to get a grip on it, and are generally slowwalking it.

We get it, you're blinded by hate and think Israel and the IDF are morally bankrupt organisations. All you're trying to do is ferment hatred inside an echo chamber, not to have good faith discussion. Good job.
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I don't hate Israel at all and yes I'm highly critical of IDF because there are many reasons to criticize and condemn them based on their consistent actions. And in the particular context of Israel, IDF is a massive issue because they are in constant and direct contact with civilians.

Being critical of an organization that has an awful track record isn't hate, it isn't fermenting hate but stating facts. And I am similarly critical of Hamas with the small difference that I have zero time for them because they have in my mind no reason to exist in an ideal world which isn't the case of IDF who is an institutional organism that Israel needs, for that reason their behaviour needs to be acknowledge and monitored since we can't reasonably call for its dismantling.
 
The European Commission has issued a statement on the rising number of antisemitic incidents in Europe, warning:

“The spike of antisemitic incidents across Europe has reached extraordinary levels in the last few days, reminiscent of some of the darkest times in history. European Jews today are again living in fear.”

It added:

“We have seen a resurgence of antisemitic incidents and rhetoric in the European Union and worldwide: Molotov cocktails thrown on a synagogue in Germany, stars of David sprayed on residential buildings in France, a Jewish cemetery desecrated in Austria, Jewish stores and synagogues attacked in Spain, demonstrators chanting hate slogans against Jews. In these difficult times the EU stands by its Jewish communities.”

The statement made two mentions of the equally rising Islamophobia and anti-Muslim sentiments across Europe, saying:

“We have to push back against this rise in antisemitism, as well as the rise in anti-Muslim hatred that we have been witnessing over the past weeks – which has no place in Europe … In parallel, we are stepping up the enforcement of relevant legislation to ensure online platforms react swiftly and effectively to antisemitic or anti-Muslim content online, be it terrorist content, hate speech or disinformation.”

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/statement_23_5527
 
JPRouve said:
I don't hate Israel at all and yes I'm highly critical of IDF because there are many reasons to criticize and condemn them based on their consistent actions. And in the particular context of Israel, IDF is a massive issue because they are in constant and direct contact with civilians.

Being critical of an organization that has an awful track record isn't hate, it isn't fermenting hate but stating facts. And I am similarly critical of Hamas with the small difference that I have zero time for them because they have in my mind no reason to exist in an ideal world which isn't the case of IDF who is an institutional organism that Israel needs, for that reason their behaviour needs to be acknowledge and monitored since we can't reasonably call for its dismantling.
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What does MST have to do with the conflict though specifically? Yes, they are rightly called out on it, by a media whose job it is to call them out. Just like every other western military are being called out on it. I'm sure I could find something easily about French or UK abuse. Because it's a systemic issue throughout military institutions. It has nothing specifically to do with the IDF. It's just firing shots for the sake of firing shots and is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
 
owlo said:
What does MST have to do with the conflict though specifically? Yes, they are rightly called out on it, by a media whose job it is to call them out. Just like every other western military are being called out on it. I'm sure I could find something easily about French or UK abuse. Because it's a systemic issue throughout military institutions. It has nothing specifically to do with the IDF. It's just firing shots for the sake of firing shots and is completely irrelevant to the discussion.
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Who told you that it had something to do with the conflict? This thread is about more than what happened a month ago and these incidents or the general issues that concern IDF have an impact on the daily lives of civilians.

And do me a favor, don't quote my post until you engaged your brain and read the context of posts. I don't care about your attempts at defending the indefensible at every opportunity..
 
The United said:
I was just looking at the full clip earlier. He said a lot more and the full clip had more context on what he wanted to say.

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I agree with him in principle - He gets confused or hazy though about a military strategy that can actually work without either killing innocents or mass military casualties though. But that's just Bernie, he's always been a peaceful soul. And the West Bank point is an important one. Very hard not to agree with a large amount of what hes saying as a principle. In practice he'd frustrate me as a commander, asking the impossible. But everything else is spot on, if somewhat idealistic.
 
owlo said:
. Those are horrific numbers. Is that in Gaza city or the entire region? I wish some journo could directly ask biden why neither mercy or comfort have even been moved to theater. It's not like they wouldn't be adequately defended.
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Isn't this what you were calling for, more or less? Only another 30% to go.
 
JPRouve said:
Who told you that it had something to do with the conflict? This thread is about more than what happened a month ago and these incidents or the general issues that concern IDF have an impact on the daily lives of civilians.

And do me a favor, don't quote my post until you engaged your brain and read the context of posts. I don't care about your attempts at defending the indefensible at every opportunity..
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You're completely off the reservation now, and are using military sexual assault as your latest weapon. About as in good faith as your suggestion to pack Jews off to Antarctica.

It's so completely ridiculous to use the fact that some men are abusers, to paint an entire organisation as sexually abusive, and to say that this is a 'issue with the IDF that impacts civilians.' There's no logic, no causation, and no intelligence in the statement. If your logic followed, then every military and almost every large organisation would have those issues.
 
owlo said:
You're completely off the reservation now, and are using military sexual assault as your latest weapon. About as in good faith as your suggestion to pack Jews off to Antarctica.

It's so completely ridiculous to use the fact that some men are abusers, to paint an entire organisation as sexually abusive, and to say that this is a 'issue with the IDF that impacts civilians.' There's no logic, no causation, and no intelligence in the statement. If your logic followed, then every military and almost every large organisation would have those issues.
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First the Antarctica comment was a reference to your stupid suggestion that palestinians should be sent to an island. It should have been obvious if you didn't seriously meant the suggestion that I was mocking.

And the point is the frequency in a small army which is also reflected in their interaction with civilians. The point being that IDF has a high number of problematic people and those people are in constant contact with civilians which means that the stories that we read about gross misconducts aren't surprising.

And yes the same could be said about many other armies when they are deployed abroad, the difference being that they are not constantly and routinely used to control civilians and shouldn't be.
 
owlo said:
. Those are horrific numbers. Is that in Gaza city or the entire region? I wish some journo could directly ask biden why neither mercy or comfort have even been moved to theater. It's not like they wouldn't be adequately defended.
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It will be the whole of Gaza, northern Gaza has about 10 hospitals overall I believe.

I imagine Biden doesn't want even the most remote of possibilities that it comes out in future that the Americans have treated a Hamas member or even worse, a Hamas militant, on the ship.

It's funny, I remember a poster earlier essentially defending Israel and it's conduct by saying it hadn't yet toucher the suffering of conflicts like the Yemen or Syrian civil wars.

As distasteful as I find it to rank atrocities, as if we're in some kind of atrocity fantasy league, I both agreed (in thr sense that those conflicts were horrendous) and disagreed (in the sense that this conflict is already shaping up to be one of thr worst by itself, let alone the background to it).

Then if you really think about it, considering the Israelis are only really getting started (4 weeks vs 10 years) and have already killed 10k. Considering the populations of Gaza (2 million) and the populations of Yemen and Syria (tens of millions each)....and considering that enough time hasn't even passed yet to add on the inevitable deaths from disease, poor water quality etc etc that are sure to come.

It's sadly not actually that awful a comparison and yet the belligerents are seen so utterly differently.

I'm sure with this level of destruction, even if Hamas is miraculously destroyed militarily, Palestinians in Gaza will be super grateful for the IDF and what they've done. Definitely won't foster bitterness and resentment towards the Israelis at all.
 
owlo said:
The problem with posting random cranks from twitter, is they generally make no sense. Yes, it’s a dog whistle to extremists on both sides. But the pro Israel side don’t use it. You don’t hear it here or at rallies, and they don’t try to claim it’s not malignant. He’s even (intentionally or stupidly) failed to identify the problem with it.

I’ll respect you and anybody else here if you have points to make, but as with the “Asa winstanley is a journo” incident I feel no need to be respectful to random cranks. He didn’t even acknowledge the Hamas attack, he can get fecked.
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Does Netanyahu presenting a map of Israel from the river to the sea at the UNGA count as using it?
 
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