I'm as pessimistic as the next guy, but this really isn't a huge problem in context. Pretty much everyone with the credibility to make a deal peace in the conflict has to have lots of blood on their hands, be it via disproportionate IDF attacks or terrorist attacks, or whatever you want to call either type. Arafat, Rabin, Begin, Sadat. If a miraculous peace someday occurs, my guess is the guys signing it will have blood on their hands.
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I'm as pessimistic as the next guy, but this really isn't a huge problem in context. Pretty much everyone with the credibility to make a deal peace in the conflict has to have lots of blood on their hands, be it via disproportionate IDF attacks or terrorist attacks, or whatever you want to call either type. Arafat, Rabin, Begin, Sadat. If a miraculous peace someday occurs, my guess is the guys signing it will have blood on their hands.
Fair enough, dont exaggerate, he is not pro genocide. He is only pro ethnic cleansing.
I'm pro people not dying needlessly.
Oui, tu racontes des conneries.
France hasn't changed, France has always done what suits its own agenda. Sometimes it follows other western countries and sometimes it doesn't but the policies are always linked to France interests.France is currently not chained to the US, Sarkozy tried but failed and Macron has consistently maintained a distance with the US and pushed for a more european-centric approach which has sometimes bothered other europeans.
You're talking with the benefit of hindsight.
I highly doubt that the Jews who were forced to take their luggage and emigrate to God knows were particularly happy about it, nor that any sane person in this day and age would approve it. The ethnic cleansing of the Jews should never have happened in the first place, under any circumstance or any context. The irony is that it has been an immense cultural, economical, and intellectual loss for any country or regime that carried it out. It also certainly doesn't give the Israelis any right to inflict to another people the same suffering they were victims of for thousands of years.
The Bar Kokhba Revolt is quite the interesting and almost fitting comparison. However, Israel is not Rome, more of a Rome wannabe (in the region). There are a few countries in the world that still trump Israel in terms of military power and global influence, and could put them under pressure, if they choose to. Bar Kokhba was also born about 2,000 years ago and things have somewhat changed in-between, especially after what happened in the 40's. You don't seriously believe that an ethnic cleansing of this magnitude could be carried out there without serious consequences. There's no western country that has remotely interest in that happening, if only for their own internal security and strategic perspective. The cycle of violence that would ensue and the loss of global influence would be absolutely catastrophic. There are other major actors closely watching how the situation there unfolds.
That's a dangerous and false shortcut I would avoid if I were you. Hamas has allied itself to Iran because Saudi Arabia chose to ditch them in 2017. For pragmatic reasons and under no illusions, given the fundamental difference in their respective vision of Islam. We also don't know how much Palestinians in Gaza support Hamas and as far as I know, neither the PA nor the West Bank are on board. Nor that they will ever be.
It's not, never was and wil never be. Today even less than in 2000. Now is the time to solve the problem once and for all. I don't mean in the next months, you have to let the wounds heal. What the Hamas achieved is for all actors in the region to go past the point of no-return and Israel has massively helped them with their predictable overreaction. The previous status quo isn't acceptable anymore, for anyone. Israel will never win by only using the military stick, it's suicidal and you know it. So you either think about the long-term and engage in true peace negociations, or you keep on riding the train wreck and watch the whole region burn for decades, in a way you've never seen before.
It's also truly the last time I engage with you about this ethnic cleansing topic. I will read your eventual reply but will not answer. Not because I want to have the last word, that's not my intent and I might be well wrong about my predictions, what do I know after all, but because I find it mind boggling to even have this kind of discussion about it.
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Bon, ben je dormirai moins bête ce soir.Oui, tu racontes des conneries.
France hasn't changed, France has always done what suits its own agenda. Sometimes it follows other western countries and sometimes it doesn't but the policies are always linked to France interests.France is currently not chained to the US, Sarkozy tried but failed and Macron has consistently maintained a distance with the US and pushed for a more european-centric approach which has sometimes bothered other europeans.
I absolutely agree on the bold part, but still feel that on the palestinian question, France had a voice of its own that could and should be listened to. I don't know what's Macron's long-term game there, maybe there isn't one as it's his last presidential term. Or how the internal dynamics are influencing Macron's international policy, even if I tried to catch up in the last weeks. France is still to my eyes the only european country that could play a meaningful role there. Or I should maybe reconsider my romanticized Gaullism.
Anyway, thank you for replying and giving me the head wobble I might've needed.
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Bon, ben je dormirai moins bête ce soir.
I absolutely agree on the bold part, but still feel that on the palestinian question, France had a voice of its own that could and should be listened to. I don't know what's Macron's long-term game there, maybe there isn't one as it's his last presidential term. Or how the internal dynamics are influencing Macron's international policy, even if I tried to catch up in the last weeks. France is still to my eyes the only european country that still could play a meaningful role there. Or maybe I should reconsider my romanticized Gaullism.
Anyway, thank you for replying and giving me the head wobble I maybe needed.
I don't think that Macron has a particular plan on that one outside of not creating more division within european countries. The main french contribution on this one is that they are sending the Tonnerre and Dixmuxe ships to help gazan hospitals and France hasn't voted like the UK or the US at the UN. Also de Villepin lambasted the international community and seemed to have a fair amount of support on that topic in France.
I am no expert, and would love if @2cents could pop up at some point with a more academic viewpoint, but I think it's a notable aspect of Jewish history in the last 2000 years, that they have generally been unattached to one place, and groups have known when to cleanse themselves when facing threats. They weren't happy of course, but it's been part of the Jewish defense mechanism for a millennia. Before the enlightenment/revolution, they were a very useful punching bag cleaving religiously when things went wrong, such as plagues or deaths. And I think in general, Jews have been often 'ready' to move, knowing that their communities can only be temporary. It's possibly why Israel is such a big deal, because the last place they had to make a stand was the same thing. As a Jew now, if anti semitism became too virulent here, I'd probably have to move to Israel. That's kind of why it matters to us. We always know it could happen again.
Funny to think about the Bar Kokhba revolt; i never meant it as a particularly serious analogy but there were definitely analogues to how they fought and the Palestinians fight now. (One could anger jews and say they are truly the children of the land.) Tunnels, Asymmetric warfare, and the ability to strike massive blows non seen since Tuetenburg. (sp?) - They didn't target civilians much, but the Romans fought back just as Israel are now, to the river and the sea, massacres and expulsions, sieges and even flooding the tunnels that the rebels used. And that was after the first war, where the Romans again acted like Israel did now, with the siege of Masada. (amazing place to visit). I've never thought about it like this, but I wonder if its some twisted Roman revenge for some factions. Probably not though.
The former leader of Hezbollah went psycho at Khamenei the other day, because he's not helping Palestinians. Maybe factional things at play.
And you're right, I don't think it's feasible. But unfortunately I think peace in the region is less feasible. I hope I'm wrong and you're right. I think it's a hopeless train wreck which could reach Yemeni proportions.
Suspicion that Norway was given the same treatment for voting for the ceasefire resolution.
From the official Israel account...
Did you watch the clip in full? It's wild.
That homer pic is so apt!
It was posted in another thread yesterday, before the official Israel account picked it up. Couldn't get through, but saw enough of it to get the gist of it.
Are there any verifiable studies on the Palestinians in regards to how many are secular/ left-wing/ islamist/ pro-West, etc? There's always this talk aboout 'the Palestinians' as if they're just this one, homogenous group of people who all have the same ideologies, convictions, worldviews etc. (Much easier to make that distinction in the Israeli society, imo.)
Because according to a few on some technicality according to some charter somewhere this isn't technically"ethnic cleansing"/"genocide" which means its okay...
I'm no expert, but the range of beliefs and viewpoints held in both the West Bank and Gaza is pretty amazing given the confined nature of the societies. In Gaza you'll find much more support for Hamas than in the West Bank. This should, however, be noted with the caveat that Hamas run a brutal regime where dissidence and opposition is met with brute force in many cases. It's always hard to gauge the true feeling under regimes like theirs and - prior to the war - their popularity was in decline. It's perhaps one of the reasons why they chose to attack Israel when they did (Oct 7th).
But that said, Gaza is much more of a source for extremism than the West Bank where the Palestinian Authority still govern (by a thread and Jenin has become a pretty wild place for extremism in recent years). The prevalence of extremism is - in my opinion - one of the reasons you find the governments of Egypt and Jordan so reluctant to take in Palestinian refugees. Even when they do, they're holed up in camps and kept pretty separate from the rest of society. It's just all fecking depressing when you start to dive into the reality on the ground.
But generally, you're not going to find much secular, liberal, Western thought in the regions, particularly in the context of the current war. Understandably.
Starts off by saying Western MSM is complicit in Israeli war crimes. Kate Garraway expertly proves his point with her idiotic tone and line of questioning.
Very risky move. But on the other hand, Jordan has been a very reliable ally to Israel, so Israel probably won’t shoot down Jordan’s airplanes.
Then, Israel often behaves crazy, I think they even attacked the US and the USSR.
NB: Seems that it was coordinated with Israel.
BTW @Kaos why do you hate Abdullah and the Jordan royals? Always thought that they are by far the best leaders of the Arab countries?
In the context of the current war, yes, understandably. I ask because of the five-star hotel spa type of resorts in Gaza, Mercedes-Benz car dealerships, and other such 'capitalist' phenomena, indicating a connection with the Western style open market economics... certainly for those groups this war in particular and any type of escalations generally was of zero benefit. Having said that, nothing goes without Hamas' say, so I'm not sure how to square those things in regard to what interest those powerful, financially well off groups of Palestinians had prior to 07/10. It would seem that segement of society would very much want a normalization of its relationship with Israel, actively supporting the development of political stability which would result in development of economic prosperity etc. All of which was sabotaged by Hamas terrorist actions a month ago.
You’ve not been watching the deaths there since 10/7 then? Explain to me why dead or destitute humans are preferable to displaced humans to you. And yes, if Israel faced such overwhelming defeat I’d expect them to move. But then Jews are used to doing that.
You cannot in good faith say they will have better lives where they are. Because in anything other than a fantasy world they won’t. Oh and news flash for you from the real world. That’s exactly what Ukrainian civilians have been doing. They’ve moved out en masse. Any able to escape from conflict zones have done so.
ps. Stop projecting your desires on to me. I’ve long said a workable Palestinian state is the best solution. Displacement in war is common to protect life, it’s not some evil conspiracy.
These are not the only two options. Israel can idk, how about end its occupation and apartheid?
Again, how do you intend to get them to do that? The USA can’t even get them to give short pauses in their invasion. And how do you expect the conditions for it to happen after the recent massacre?
This conflict has been going on for a long time, and it’s getting worse not better. I think it’s unrealistic to say you can just flip a switch and fix it.
Great contribution. And apologies in advance, this is directed at several posters who have basically said the same thing. Ok. Tomorrow, Israel remove all IDF forces from Gaza, end the blockade, pull all settlers who are close back a mile or so. Done. Gaza stands alone. Ships may dock as they please. Gazans may pass out through Egypt (ha, Israel's fault of course Egyptians don't want that, but anyway), sail to whever they please.
Ok, so now what? Hamas is the governing body of Gaza. It has not held an election in 15 odd years. It is going nowhere. Last week, Gazan leadership affirmed that it would like to continue to do October 7ths until Israel no longer exists. And now, without blockades or security checkpoints, Iran (or any other power looking to destablise the world, see China, Russia) can send in all the weapons you can fit into Gaza. Hamas will continue to create plans to conduct mass murder on its neighbours, while not feeding, improving infrastructure or improving lives of its citizens. It certainly will not allow electiosn - why would it - it would lose.
Israel would basically be expected to just sit idly by, watching as its genocidal neighbours stock up on weapons, hoping I guess that the iron dome and IDF are able to use intelligence to limit the slaughter of its civilians. Which is obviously not a winning strategy politically, so no government is going to be able exist.
So good work. Yes, Israel should just mind its own damn business, and everything would be peachy keen. Good plan, I for one am shocked its taken 80 years of bloodshed and failed negotiations to arrive at this point.
I think the logic from most people here saying that is is, that this Hamas attack should be the trigger that convinces Israel it can no longer keep going the way it is, and it has no choice but to cede in Gaza as it's killing so many civilians and losing them allies, and therefore they will be forced to the negotiating table. Because the Hamas attack is only a result of their oppression, and if they stop oppressing Palestinians, everything will be dandy. Therefore this is the perfect opportunity for a two state solution to happen now.
It's not just a matter of what would result in the fewest deaths though is it? Ethnic cleansing is a little more complex than that. You're also massively removing agency from Israel here as if they're not even part of the equation.
Sorry but prefacing a claim or claiming it as the reality doesn't absolve subsequent statements.
It's fact that in every conflict facing a superior and barbaric oppressor, people flee. It's not a claim, any more than it's a claim that water is wet. Where do you think Asylum seekers come from? I don't see any claim that I've made as even vaguely contestable or unverifiable. You can't control the actions of Israel, so you have no agency over what they do. They have agency sure, but there's no chance they cede after 10/7. They've said as much. Israel will do what Israel do. Just like Russia have agency to stop, but the fleeing Ukrainians have no control of that. They have to do whats best for their life.
So, in your opinion, it's better for the Palestinians to be stuck in Gaza under the control of Hamas and the boot of Israel, as opposed to have their own country in a peaceful place? Because 'ethnic cleansing is bad.' Is my opinion that the humans lives matter more, so utterly disgusting to you?
If Israel/Egypt allowed them, many would flee to become refugees anyway. Why not give them a home instead of keeping them locked up in 360sqm of hell? Or a choice of one at least.
How bout stop stealing their land?
There are no good solutions here IMO.
Personally, I think the best solution will be for Israel to stop the attack. Make a deal with the US and Qatar that Qatar stops giving shelter to Hamas leaders. Use Mossad (in coordination with CIA and co) to kill Hamas leaders that are outside of Gaza (or Qatar to send the likes of Hanniyeh to Israel). Maybe some occasional strike in Gaza for high-value Hanas leadersGet in return normalization with Saudis and ideally Qatar .
Obviously it is hard to see thus happening, and Qatar probably won’t accept this. But maybe it is time for them to decide if they want to be aligned with Iran, or with the Western world and the other Gulf states.
I do not think this is a perfect solution and probably it won’t work, but it is a million times better than the current barbaric tactic they are using. At this stage all that remains is to go full medieval and start throwing animals with disease in Gaza. Or poison their weils.
Oh I know that's exactly what a few have explicitly said. If anything, October 7th was a justifiable catalyst towards a peaceful future. That such oppressed people had no choice but to brutally murder and torture a load of civilians, because really what other voice do they have? The world's not ignoring them now!
What said posters simply refuse to articulate, at least as I've seen it, is two things:
1. What did Hamas think Israel would do in response to its actions, if not exactly what it is doing?
2. If Israel did indeed just open Gazas borders, and allow freedom of movement, what does that look like when Gaza is run by Hamas?
Personally, I feel desperately sad for the Gazan people, and appalled at the sheer birth lottery that means my son grows up where he does, while some other poor child is now living (or worse) for fear of being buried in rubble every day. It's disgusting, tragic and something that has been going on for decades. The world SHOULD get together and do something about it. Fellow Arab states SHOULD be offering aid not to arming freedom fighters but to UN and Red Cross organisations on the ground. Citizens across the world SHOULD be pressuring their local politicians to act, to give aid, to provide migration if available. Israel SHOULD end the abhorrent progression of settlers, and pull back to some agreed line, never to overstep again. Rich states SHOULD be offering to take in Gazans that want to leave, and help assimilate them into their cultures. All of these I believe, strongly.
But I also believe that this current absolute horror show is the result of Hamas, and its decision to press the f*ck it all button. The Gaza situation on October 6th was obviously awful. All the above things should have been happening more. But because of October 7th, that may literally be the best it will ever be for Gazans. I'm not saying that to be cruel, or anti-anything. I just play out the future and don't see things improving now. The infrastructure is destroyed. Everyone human being there has watched a love one die. I don't even know what a reconstruction would look like, much less who will pay for it.
I wish I could see a solution. Please, anyone, I'm listening. But this escalation could be the end of Gaza, and I refuse to absolve Hamas of being the ones who caused it.
Absolutely agree 100%. There was an Israeli response to this that was focussed on Hamas leadership alone, in the way it used to make it very clear that if you committed an act against Israel, Mossad would find you, and will kill you, no matter where you are. That would be have been a million times more preferable. But with Netanyahu in place and the sheer scale and horror of the attacks kind of made that impossible. The only acceptable solution is the elimination of Hamas, and that's just functionally impossible.
Yes, I'll just call up the Israeli government and tell them that. I'm sure it'll change the reality.
Yossi former head of Mossad whos last name I cant remember (his son Pedayah was killed in the offensive, after he lost his father to a previous terrorist attack when Pedayah was 15) has been constantly chastising Israelis to stop hating on Qatar, as they need them for negotiations. I don't know how much headway he's even making with that, given they are still harboring the Hamas leadership, but 'helping' with the hostages.
In my opinion they need a full ceasefire (for weeks) now whilst they establish their rules of combat and how to approach the war without killing too many soldiers or civilians. Because that's a really tough question, and so far I think the military have been conceding too much ground to the political leadership in looking for results without actually being able to stop and think past 'how do we stop our soldiers not getting murdered?' It would also allow things to calm down a bit, but the problem is they are so angry and have already taken the PR hit. They are pretty committed to whatever this is now. And the problem is that any pause/ceasefire gives Hamas time to prepare, which is not a good thing when they know whats coming. There's no way out, it's hopeless.
Arab states are too busy funding each other to kill other muslims. 350,000 in Yemen, many in Syria, Kurdistan, Iraq, the list goes on. The Palestinian thing is one they can unite around as they can ferment pan-Arab hate against Israel, but there's very little actual care from their leadership. They'll talk and talk, but have no interest in brokering peace.
And yea, I wake up each day these days knowing how lucky I am. And before October 7th, Palestinians didn't have it bad compared to many people in the world either. Now they do, and we should solve that issue if possible.
I fear you may be right, certainly to the outsider this looks like the 'end game'. It is difficult to believe Israel could ever again risk letting what they see as terrorists get anywhere near their borders, equally the death toll/suffering among Palestinians especially, but not exclusively in Gaza, is already high, and in a continuing and increasingly bloody conflict the ongoing toll, in loss of life is not likely to be conducive to lasting peace in any 'two-state' solution.
Other countries whether supportive of one side or another cannot afford to get involved in terms 'boots on the ground' because of the brutal warfare will spread and if armaments are continued to be supplied, the whole world is then at risk.
The rights and wrongs of a two-state solution in an 'end game' environment become obsolete. 'Displacement' is the likely outcome, but how, who and where to, is the crucial element, and will be as much dependent on the 'last man standing' scenario, as anything to do with right or wrongs of it. To avoid the extremes of ethnic cleansing, enforceable removal, etc. is going to take massive amounts of goodwill to achieve, not to mention finance and other resources, and how will such a 'solution' be brokered, and by who?
I've said this before and I am sure I will end up saying it again in the future.
I find this argument deeply deeply unpleasant and has shades of some truly awful justifications in history.
When you say the official Israel account, do you mean the official account of the country?
Who made the video?
This point is never really addressed but what are palestinians supposed to do/accept? Diplomatically they have never had the support of the main powers, their borders have never been protected judicially or diplomatically, palestinian citizens don't have their human rights respected nor protected. If a minority responds with violence palestinians are seen as dangerous terrorists, if they don't respond with violence everyone pretends that nothing is going on.
So if we all accept the idea that by default palestinians are dangerous to israelis and that israelis are justified in limiting palestinians freedoms, abusing them daily and taking more lands every day. What are the options for palestinians outside of living and dying miserably in silence?
So if we all accept the idea that by default palestinians are dangerous to israelis and that israelis are justified in limiting palestinians freedoms, abusing them daily and taking more lands every day. What are the options for palestinians outside of living and dying miserably in silence?
Hamas and their terrorist actions are a natural result of how Israel has treated Palestinians for decades. If you want to subjugate, impose an apartheid, systematically steal their land and homes and brutally opress a populaiton of people ok. But if you do that they shouldn't be surprised if some of those people respond with violence. Because as you quite rightly say they've been left with only two options.