Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

2cents said:
It does make me wonder what conversations are going on between Arab leaders behind the scenes, and if it might have been possible to forestall Israel’s current path in some way in the immediate aftermath of 7th October.
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I think the regional players are all behaving according to their own interests. The Qataris and Saudis are in a rivalry to see who can emerge as the more relevant interlocutor for regional affairs. The Qataris have the advantage of the Hamas connection in Doha, while the Saudis have to balance the Israel peace deal with the need to appear as if they're working on behalf of the Palestinians. Sisi, King Abdullah, and Erdogan basically want nothing to do with this beyond being able to criticize it from afar to soothe the anxieties of their domestic audiences.
 
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VorZakone said:
The West has to understand that Israel can hurt the West's interests while being an ally. The West wants a rules-based international order based on international agreements. But there is no point in lecturing others on all that if their own ally is blatantly violating it.
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This is very true. I wrote in the Ukraine war thread that Israel waging its war the way they are is playing perfectly into Putin's hands.
 
2cents said:
It does make me wonder what conversations are going on between Arab leaders behind the scenes, and if it might have been possible to forestall Israel’s current path in some way in the immediate aftermath of 7th October.
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I don't think there was any way around Israel invading Gaza after the attack. There's just no way countries would tell their ally to just suck it up and tolerate a terrorist organization in charge of 2 million people. It was always about managing civilian casualties - and as we all know that doesn't seem to go to well.

VorZakone said:
The West has to understand that Israel can hurt the West's interests while being an ally. The West wants a rules-based international order based on international agreements. But there is no point in lecturing others on all that if their own ally is blatantly violating it.
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See my answer above, that's precisely the dilemma for Western countries. To put it into very simple terms: the rules say that Israel has the right to invade Gaza and that their Western allies have to support them in fighting Hamas. On the other hand Israel are breaking the rules when it comes to civilian suffering. The Western states can't abandon an ally right after it has been attacked (or Israel in general, if we're being honest), but I think/hope that afterwards they will want to make sure that they won't be put into such a situation again.
 
do.ob said:
I don't think there was any way around Israel invading Gaza after the attack. There's just no way countries would tell their ally to just suck it up and tolerate a terrorist organization in charge of 2 million people. It was always about managing civilian casualties - and as we all know that doesn't seem to go to well.



See my answer above, that's precisely the dilemma for Western countries. To put it into very simple terms: the rules say that Israel has the right to invade Gaza and that their Western allies have to support them in fighting Hamas. On the other hand Israel are breaking the rules when it comes to civilian suffering. The Western states can't abandon an ally right after it has been attacked (or Israel in general, if we're being honest), but I think/hope that afterwards they will want to make sure that they won't be put into such a situation again.
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I think you'd want to a bit of depth to that analysis of yours.

Puddle would be the word to describe it.
 
do.ob said:
I don't think there was any way around Israel invading Gaza after the attack. There's just no way countries would tell their ally to just suck it up and tolerate a terrorist organization in charge of 2 million people. It was always about managing civilian casualties - and as we all know that doesn't seem to go to well.



See my answer above, that's precisely the dilemma for Western countries. To put it into very simple terms: the rules say that Israel has the right to invade Gaza and that their Western allies have to support them in fighting Hamas. On the other hand Israel are breaking the rules when it comes to civilian suffering. The Western states can't abandon an ally right after it has been attacked (or Israel in general, if we're being honest), but I think/hope that afterwards they will want to make sure that they won't be put into such a situation again.
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No worries, if they kick out all gazans to the sinai, it wont happen again
 
do.ob said:
I don't think there was any way around Israel invading Gaza after the attack. There's just no way countries would tell their ally to just suck it up and tolerate a terrorist organization in charge of 2 million people. It was always about managing civilian casualties - and as we all know that doesn't seem to go to well.
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Maybe they should tell them to suck it up and not occupy 3 million people in the West Bank, take their land and murder them, along with not putting up a blockade on another 2 million people. Maybe they should also look in the mirror to see where 'terrorist organization' problem really is.
 
do.ob said:
To put it into very simple terms: the rules say that Israel has the right to invade Gaza and that their Western allies have to support them in fighting Hamas. On the other hand Israel are breaking the rules when it comes to civilian suffering
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This isn't the historic sticking point when it comes to rule breaking though, the rule breaking that everyone is pissed off about is an occupying power placing settlers on occupied land. Israel killing civilians is something that's been happening for decades, they unfortunately have carte Blanche.
 
Here's a map of the buildings either damaged or destroyed in Gaza.

In yellow from 7-17th October
In red from 18-29th October
In green the evacuation line

Source

18463da_1698693975298-inter-4423-gaza-destructions-29oct.png
 
VorZakone said:
The West has to understand that Israel can hurt the West's interests while being an ally. The West wants a rules-based international order based on international agreements. But there is no point in lecturing others on all that if their own ally is blatantly violating it.
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I don't think hypocrisy has ever been a problem for the West, for like ever. The West pretty much defines the world order. So they can talk about peace, human rights etc etc., while actively supporting countries that turn cities to dust.
Look at the Saudis. The West condemn Saudis, talk about human rights, ask for lgbt rights, women rights etc etc. But they encourage all kinds of trade, helping the country increase their riches, supply them arms and make money off it.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
Maybe they should tell them to suck it up and not occupy 3 million people in the West Bank, take their land and murder them, along with not putting up a blockade on another 2 million people. Maybe they should also look in the mirror to see where 'terrorist leadership' problem really is.
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First comes the military response, only then comes reflection. I don't think that's always the smartest order, but that's how states operate, isn't it?

RedTiger said:
This isn't the historic sticking point when it comes to rule breaking though, the rule breaking that everyone is pissed off about is an occupying power placing settlers on occupied land. Israel killing civilians is something that's been happening for decades, they unfortunately have carte Blanche.
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I can't say what the calculation was in the past, but I think the current crisis is making Western nations pay for that discrepancy, so hopefully it will be addressed in the future, even if it may only be out of self interest.
 
I have been one of Israel's biggest critics and I believe the state itself is a misnomer- meaning it is not a real country but a colonial outpost but the actions of Hamas was abhorrent and I reject and strongly condemn their actions. Taking innocent civilians and murdering more than a thousand is just as condemnable as what Israel has meted on innocent Palestinians.
Regardless of how we feel about Israel's original sin, apartheid policies and ethnic cleansing, we should never forget that the victims of Hamas attacks are just as humans as those of Gazans.
I need to remind myself of these facts even as we continue to condemn Israel's actions.
 
do.ob said:
First comes the military response, only then comes reflection. I don't think that's always the smartest order, but that's how states operate, isn't it?
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That's what Hamas say as well after their families being humiliated and murdered for decades. But I suppose only one is the terrorist.
 
I would be running like this if I would have a free house. Specially if encouraged by my lovely government and it doesn't cost a dime to the tax payers
 
Hillary Clinton: 'People who call for ceasefire do not understand Hamas'

When discussing the call for a ceasefire, Clinton stated: “People who are calling for a ceasefire now, don’t understand Hamas... It would be such a gift to Hamas because they would spend whatever time [that] there was a ceasefire in effect rebuilding their armaments... to be able to fend off an eventual assault by the Israelis.”
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https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-770790?utm_source=jpost.app.apple&utm_medium=share
 
nickm said:
Ethnic cleansing, maybe yes. War crimes? Maybe, I will let the lawyers at the ICC decide that. Holocaust- I think that is just wrong and actually slightly repellent to use that word in this context.

Genocide - well you wouldn’t classify the bombing of Dresden or the firebombing of Tokyo as genocides, and as horrific as this is, it looks more to me like those things than genocide. I just don’t think genocide is a word to use lightly.
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I think the actions, the reports and the videos I have personally seen would suggest genocide is what's taking place.
 
Halftrack said:
About what you'd expect from a hawk like her, but still, it's nice that she keeps reminding everyone how much she fecking sucks.
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Bill Clinton: “I did not have sexual relations with that woman.”
 
Apparently

Hebrew Channel 13 reporting Russia and Hamas have reached a deal where Hamas will release some Russian dual nationality people (8 I believe) the n exchange for anti aircraft missiles. Israel concerned and on phone to Russia
 
4bars said:
I would be running like this if I would have a free house. Specially if encouraged by my lovely government and it doesn't cost a dime to the tax payers
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And it wouldn't bother you what happens to the people who lived in those homes? Do you generally go around stealing others property that's been left unattended?
 
"Israel-Hamas war live: women and children make up nearly 70% of people reported killed in Gaza, says UN"

That equates to roughly 5000-6000 women and children slaughtered. That's beyond horrifying. How any justifies this is beyond me, its pure evil.
 
Kaos said:
"Israel-Hamas war live: women and children make up nearly 70% of people reported killed in Gaza, says UN"

That equates to roughly 5000-6000 women and children slaughtered. That's beyond horrifying. How any justifies this is beyond me, its pure evil.
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Statistically Israel has killed one Palestinian child every 3 days for the last 21 years
 
Moby said:
And it wouldn't bother you what happens to the people who lived in those homes? Do you generally go around stealing others property that's been left unattended?
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I think the point is these Palestinians have been so dehumanised and deemed worthless by the Israeli government and society, as well as their power-bearing allies, that these settlers, through years of enablement have come to see them as nothing but vermin, occupying homes and lands they feel they're entitled to by divine right.

If they're not being punished for it (heck they're being encouraged), then why would their deranged behaviour be put into check. For them its just another day.
 
He was just in US tv and estimated there are about 20k Israeli ground troops inside Gaza now. Also, this….

 
Moby said:
And it wouldn't bother you what happens to the people who lived in those homes? Do you generally go around stealing others property that's been left unattended?
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They were being sarcastic. They are in no way advocating for such atrocities.
 
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