Well, it does but I am sorry if you don't think there are cultural differences and cultural standards some nations or regions have where others don't.
Not according to dictionary definitions.
Holocaust has a general meaning but The Holocaust is specifically referring to what happened with the Jewish community
It has different meanings but as @Raoul says there is a Greek link to the meaning. It's from the meaning burnt offering
No I stand by it. In the list of 21st century war crimes, this is pretty far down. I didn't say it wasn't on the list. And Hamas are on there too.
The numbers are horrible I agree. But they back up the fact this is sadly small fry compared to some other recent horrors.
Exactly. Unfortunately I also saw the video of the kid getting shot. I find it hard to believe he was a terrorist, he was just walking, not plotting anything. There's no distinction between the countless videos my ukranian wife showed me of russian terror and the videos we are seeing everyday from Gaza and the West Bank. As left leaning western person, I just can't turn away and not condemn these atrocities like I condemned the Hamas attack.Throwback to Russia doing the same in Ukraine.
I'm not saying this and The Holocaust are the same thing. I'm saying that I'm shocked how other countries are letting this happen and used The Holocaust teachings I had as a kid lead to me asking that very question. Obviously many despicable things have happened in between and will happen going forward.Then I'll change my view of course. It's not difficult, nor am I being dogmatic, just responding to facts.
But as per Raoul's instruction, I'll leave it now because I admit this whole discussion is not appropriate when there's a horrible war ongoing. My issue so often here is the extreme use of language, and I can see why some think I'm trying to minimise what's going on or somehow suggest it's really not that bad. That's not the case. I'm absolutely gutted about the whole thing, I'm hating every second of it and the tragedy both peoples are suffering. I get that people are extremely upset about it and that will inevitably lead to extreme language. Comparing this to the holocaust, I will never ever get on board with that, it's preposterous. But I'm hoping that it's not coming from a bad place in most cases.
What is the point of the question really? It’s like asking if what happened to the Karabakh Armenians in September is by definition a nakbah.
That's easy. Call it fake numbers put out by Hamas.I wonder what you will say if israel ends killing 100k. Where the goalposts will be
I'm not saying this and The Holocaust are the same thing. I'm saying that I'm shocked how other countries are letting this happen and used The Holocaust teachings I had as a kid lead to me asking that very question. Obviously many despicable things have happened in between and will happen going forward.
Fair enough. Equating it to the holocaust is sometimes used in bad faith by some very nasty people which means I can get touchy about it, but I understand where you're coming from on this.I'm not saying this and The Holocaust are the same thing. I'm saying that I'm shocked how other countries are letting this happen and used The Holocaust teachings I had as a kid lead to me asking that very question. Obviously many despicable things have happened in between and will happen going forward.
I was reading through some of the posts and you've got one set using terms which the other set are taking exception to.
Genuinely aroused my curiousity so I asked the question.
These terms can be interchangeable.
Nakabah and holocaust have the same meaning to the two groups involved currently. As in catastrophe.
Again a word I hadn't given much thought to but looked into when you raised it here.
You got to see the answer to that in Darfur, Rwanda, Syria, Yemen etc etc. Hundreds of thousands slaughtered, starved, butchered. But whatever. Israel kills 7000 in response to a terrorist attack - it's the fecking holocaust again lads. Give me a break.
And this does not excuse it. They are perpetrating war crimes (as did Hamas) and they should be held to account. But the extremity of the language here is ridiculous.
You asked pretty much the same question in this thread in 2021 -https://www.redcafe.net/threads/isr...-more-discussion.438643/page-96#post-27228174
I'd forgotten about that, but then it was 2 years ago.
Here though my issue wasn't the definition per se, rather that some folk are seeing that as simply being The Holocaust.
I don't actually understand your issue. We have a generic word that describe this type of events which is genocide, holocaust doesn't have a superior meaning.
I never claimed it did. There was someone getting upset about the term being used for the murder of Palestinians and my point was it can be used here as it's not exclusive to The Holocaust.
But in that case why don't you just use the actual term instead of trying to alter one that is linked to a particular event when it has no actually added value?
Seriously, what are you talking about. This is a war crime and a tragedy and I've said it many times, in fact in the last hour or two. So sorry if I want to put it into context, and I dare to mention that it's not the worst thing that's ever happened. That it isn't another holocaust. That makes me 'heartless'? Get lost. Words have meaning.They are people not skittles. How heartless are you.
You earlier told someone to educate themselves - learned authorities, scholars, the UN, Doctors Without Borders, a number of NGOs like stc have been raising the alarm bells of a possible genocide - we had 7 k deaths on Friday and that was before things intensified. Food and water shortages, lack of power - at what volume of innocents butchered do you want us to stop giving you a break ?
I said it can be used here and not to be conflated with The Holocaust.
Seriously, what are you talking about. This is a war crime and a tragedy and I've said it many times, in fact in the last hour or two. So sorry if I want to put it into context, and I dare to mention that it's not the worst thing that's ever happened. That it isn't another holocaust. That makes me 'heartless'? Get lost. Words have meaning.
Israel is committing one of worst crimes of the century, and the rest of the 'civilized' world is just standing by and watching. I hope that at the very least, history will not be kind to them.
I said it can be used here and not to be conflated with The Holocaust.
I think genocide, ethnic cleansing and holocaust can be used to describe what's happening.
A poster writing it's the holocaust again lads seemed to imply that it's only to be used with what the Nazis did.
If half of the videos that are coming out of Gaza are true, Isreal should be held responsible. War crimes of the highest order.
I said it can be used here and not to be conflated with The Holocaust.
I think genocide, ethnic cleansing and holocaust can be used to describe what's happening.
Yes they do - and someone with two functioning brain cells would be able to distinguish between ongoing activities and rapidly climbing death counts and one that happened in the past.Seriously, what are you talking about. This is a war crime and a tragedy and I've said it many times, in fact in the last hour or two. So sorry if I want to put it into context, and I dare to mention that it's not the worst thing that's ever happened. That it isn't another holocaust. That makes me 'heartless'? Get lost. Words have meaning.
I don't think it is right to use WW attacks for comparison. The world has moved on since then and today invading nations are expected to fight in a certain way, rather than bomb the hell out of cities and kill large swathes of civilian population, just because they have the weapons to do that.Genocide - well you wouldn’t classify the bombing of Dresden or the firebombing of Tokyo as genocides, and as horrific as this is, it looks more to me like those things than genocide. I just don’t think genocide is a word to use lightly.
That is true. And it is also true that if you keep military installations beneath hospitals, etc is a war crime because you are inviting civilian deaths. This does not happen usually, unless for those that have zero care about their own people.I don't think it is right to use WW attacks for comparison. The world has moved on since then and today invading nations are expected to fight in a certain way, rather than bomb the hell out of cities and kill large swathes of civilian population, just because they have the weapons to do that.
That is true. And it is also true that if you keep military installations beneath hospitals, etc is a war crime because you are inviting civilian deaths. This does not happen usually, unless for those that have zero care about their own people.
Every western secret service information unit, past proven history, the IDF, captured Hamas soldiers.What type of military installation under a hospital? What's the source for this?
PA Prime Minister on alleged Israeli plans for post-Hamas Gaza:
The Palestinian Authority will not return to governing Gaza after the Israel-Hamas conflict without a comprehensive agreement that includes the West Bank in a Palestinian state, the authority’s prime minister has said.Israeli civilian and military officials have said their plan for the end of the Gaza war is to have some form of transitional authority rule the territory, perhaps involving Arab states, leading to the restoration of the Palestinian Authority (PA), which was ousted from Gaza in a 2007 Hamas coup.But Mohammad Shtayyeh, who has been prime minister since 2019, said the PA would not cooperate without a return to a genuine peace process resulting in two sovereign states……Shtayyeh argued that the Israeli need for someone else to run the territory in place of Hamas gives the international community a rare degree of leverage to return to a two-state solution that Netanyahu has systematically dismantled during his time in office.“The question for us – the Israelis, the Americans, the Europeans, everybody – is, how can we make out of this disaster an opportunity for peace?” he said.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...l-not-run-gaza-without-solution-for-west-bank
PA Prime Minister on alleged Israeli plans for post-Hamas Gaza:
The Palestinian Authority will not return to governing Gaza after the Israel-Hamas conflict without a comprehensive agreement that includes the West Bank in a Palestinian state, the authority’s prime minister has said.Israeli civilian and military officials have said their plan for the end of the Gaza war is to have some form of transitional authority rule the territory, perhaps involving Arab states, leading to the restoration of the Palestinian Authority (PA), which was ousted from Gaza in a 2007 Hamas coup.But Mohammad Shtayyeh, who has been prime minister since 2019, said the PA would not cooperate without a return to a genuine peace process resulting in two sovereign states……Shtayyeh argued that the Israeli need for someone else to run the territory in place of Hamas gives the international community a rare degree of leverage to return to a two-state solution that Netanyahu has systematically dismantled during his time in office.“The question for us – the Israelis, the Americans, the Europeans, everybody – is, how can we make out of this disaster an opportunity for peace?” he said.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...l-not-run-gaza-without-solution-for-west-bank
This is where the UN could make themselves useful, but putting in peacekeeping troops to oversee the area, which would also allow other UN agencies to help. Not sure if the Israelis would go for it though, since they would want to keep security control of the strip until they receive guarantees leaving wouldn't allow another group to step in.
This is what should've happened in the first place, an outside entity needs to govern and maintain the west bank and gaza.PA Prime Minister on alleged Israeli plans for post-Hamas Gaza:
The Palestinian Authority will not return to governing Gaza after the Israel-Hamas conflict without a comprehensive agreement that includes the West Bank in a Palestinian state, the authority’s prime minister has said.Israeli civilian and military officials have said their plan for the end of the Gaza war is to have some form of transitional authority rule the territory, perhaps involving Arab states, leading to the restoration of the Palestinian Authority (PA), which was ousted from Gaza in a 2007 Hamas coup.But Mohammad Shtayyeh, who has been prime minister since 2019, said the PA would not cooperate without a return to a genuine peace process resulting in two sovereign states……Shtayyeh argued that the Israeli need for someone else to run the territory in place of Hamas gives the international community a rare degree of leverage to return to a two-state solution that Netanyahu has systematically dismantled during his time in office.“The question for us – the Israelis, the Americans, the Europeans, everybody – is, how can we make out of this disaster an opportunity for peace?” he said.https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...l-not-run-gaza-without-solution-for-west-bank
I guess that's an encouraging statement?!
The West has to understand that Israel can hurt the West's interests while being an ally. The West wants a rules-based international order based on international agreements. But there is no point in lecturing others on all that if their own ally is blatantly violating it.It's one thing for Western states to prioritize "Israel's right to defend itself", while the war is still ongoing. But I think, or at least I hope, that after the war Israel's allies will look back at all the blood that has been spilled and push for a solution that at least promises the chance of peace and handing Gaza to more moderate institutions, and giving them some security guarantees/Israeli concessions, so that they can sell it to their people, sounds logical.
This is the crux of basically everything.The West has to understand that Israel can hurt the West's interests while being an ally. The West wants a rules-based international order based on international agreements. But there is no point in lecturing others on all that if their own ally is blatantly violating it.
