Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Raoul said:
That's because it can't be answered without being unrealistic. No Israeli response other than going after Hamas would've been acceptable to the Israeli population. Even many left wing Jews who hate Netanyahu want Hamas gone.
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You can go after Hamas without destroying an entire city and killing thousands of people in the process. Not everything needs to be by the US' playbook when it comes to tackling terror.
 
Kaos said:
You can go after Hamas without destroying an entire city and killing thousands of people in the process. Not everything needs to be by the US' playbook when it comes to tackling terror.
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What would be your approach in successfully going after Hamas while simultaneously keeping all civilians safe ?
 
Kaos said:
You can go after Hamas without destroying an entire city and killing thousands of people in the process. Not everything needs to be by the US' playbook when it comes to tackling terror.
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Are you suggesting Israeli soldiers should go raw into gaza tunnels? If so, that sounds like extremely dumb and naive warfare.
 
Kaos said:
I've given my take above.
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I read that. Would special forces work to completely remove Hamas (which is the Israeli goal here) ?

Also, the 67 border thing is obviously a non-starter at this point. The Palestinian side are fractured and unable to speak with a unified voice and the Israelis are obviously not planning on giving back any more land they gained by other countries invading them, particularly only weeks after the worst attack on them since the holocaust.
 
Kaos said:
They've been bombing Gaza for almost two decades. The tunnels haven't stopped, so no I don't think its working.
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These were random retaliatory bombings following rocket attacks into Israel, which always subsided back into the previous status quo. Their current stated goal now is actually getting rid of Hamas in the Gaza strip, which would be hard to do without actually going into Gaza.
 
Raoul said:
I read that. Would special forces work to completely remove Hamas (which is the Israeli goal here) ?

Also, the 67 border thing is obviously a non-starter at this point. The Palestinian side are fractured and unable to speak with a unified voice and the Israelis are obviously not planning on giving back any more land they gained by other countries invading them, particularly only weeks after the worst attack on them since the holocaust.
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Removing Hamas in its entirety isn't possible. The Israeli proposed strategy (publicly at least) appears to involve levelling Gaza city, hoping that Hamas make up a chunk of the thousands they've killed. Truthfully we know that doesn't work, and has proven not to work when factoring in the lessons from the ill-fated war on terror since 9/11. Even if their bombing campaign ends up neutralising scores of their organisation, where do you think the fathers and sons who've lost everything will flock to? If not Hamas it'll be something else in its stead. That's why if you take their strategy at face value, its doomed to fail, and only plays into Hamas' hands, who will no doubt have no shortage of desperate Palestinians flocking to them.

The goal should be to secure the hostages, cripple the Hamas organisational hierarchy, and work towards building some goodwill with the Palestinians. You're not going to achieve any of that with turning Gaza into a giant graveyard for the innocent.

As for the 67 issue - well Israel will need to decide if it wants to catch up with the international consensus or continue operating as a quasi-colonial aggressor, which only prolongs any prospect for peace and stability.
 
Raoul said:
These were random retaliatory bombings following rocket attacks into Israel, which always subsided back into the previous status quo. Their current stated goal now is actually getting rid of Hamas in the Gaza strip, which would be hard to do without actually going into Gaza.
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It doesn't actually work as a strategy though. Unless you consider destroying an entire city and killing a bulk of its inhabitants as palatable collateral. In which case you're blurring the moral integrity of Israel and the enemy they're intending to neutralise.
 
Kaos said:
So if a strategy has failed in the past, the solution is just to double down on it until it works? What was that definition of insanity again?
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I don't know shit about any of that. All i know is they said they want hamas gone, and sending them into gaza without reducing the threat to their soldiers as much as possible beforehand would be stupid.
 
YouOnlyLiveTwice said:
I don't know shit about any of that. All i know is they said they want hamas gone, and sending them into gaza without reducing the threat to their soldiers as much as possible beforehand would be stupid.
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Its impossible to get rid of Hamas without essentially wiping out Gaza. If you feel that's the acceptable price to pay, then I can't debate with you any further on this.

I'd be asking why Netanyahu's government were so keen to bolster Hamas in the past if the intention is sincerely to 'wipe them out'.
 
Kaos said:
Its impossible to get rid of Hamas without essentially wiping out Gaza. If you feel that's the acceptable price to pay, then I can't debate with you any further on this.

I'd be asking why Netanyahu's government were so keen to bolster Hamas in the past if the intention is sincerely to 'wipe them out'.
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I have never said anything about whats acceptable, and i never supported bombings of gaza or anything like it, i support peace.
 
Kaos said:
Its impossible to get rid of Hamas without essentially wiping out Gaza. If you feel that's the acceptable price to pay, then I can't debate with you any further on this.

I'd be asking why Netanyahu's government were so keen to bolster Hamas in the past if the intention is sincerely to 'wipe them out'.
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Could probably use this exact same template right after 911, swapping in US govt and Al Qaeda.

Not sure about the first part though. Hamas can be gotten rid of, unless you think everyone there is Hamas.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Could probably use this exact same template right after 911, swapping in US govt and Al Qaeda.

Not sure about the first part though. Hamas can be gotten rid of, unless you think everyone there is Hamas.
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Agreed. The Hamas can't be gotten rid of "because they're not a group but rather a mindset/ideal" narrative is incorrect. They are first and foremost an organization just like Al-Qaeda and ISIS were. They have a piece of land they control, they have leaders on that land as well as well as in Qatar and Lebanon, and their weapons are funded and supplied by Iran (beyond what they themselves produce on the strip). They can therefore be dismantled and ejected in Gaza.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Could probably use this exact same template right after 911, swapping in US govt and Al Qaeda.

Not sure about the first part though. Hamas can be gotten rid of, unless you think everyone there is Hamas.
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Raoul said:
Agreed. The Hamas can't be gotten rid of "because they're not a group but rather a mindset/ideal" narrative is incorrect. They are first and foremost an organization just like Al-Qaeda and ISIS were. They have a piece of land they control, they have leaders on that land as well as well as in Qatar and Lebanon, and their weapons are funded and supplied by Iran (beyond what they themselves produce on the strip). They can therefore be dismantled and ejected in Gaza.
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Very well. Now explain how Israel's current strategy of heavily bombing Gaza is a surefire strategy to achieve that goal?

Hamas aren't comparable to Al-Qaeda and ISIS either. The latter two were global organisations that required the collective efforts of several nations to combat, nor have they been destroyed either.
 
Kaos said:
Very well. Now explain how Israel's current strategy of heavily bombing Gaza is a surefire strategy to achieve that goal?
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The ability to go into Gaza and control the territory would be a much better way to get Hamas leaders given that they are physically below ground. Otherwise there's no way of getting them. Do you disagree ?

Kaos said:
Hamas aren't comparable to Al-Qaeda and ISIS either. The latter two were global organisations that required the collective efforts of several nations to combat, nor have they been destroyed either.
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They've been marginalized into irrelevance, and since they were far more geographically scattered than Hamas, it would seem far less complicated to do the same to the latter given that a vast majority of their fighters are trapped in a very small piece of land.
 
Raoul said:
The south has been getting sporadically bombed as well (probably to hit tunnels), but I believe a vast majority of the bombing has been in the north. Giving citizens a two week warning before going in is pretty unprecedented in modern times. I'm struggling to find any other examples where this has happened in recent years.
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Such a good guys, blessed their heart. Nice warnings 3000 kids here 2000 women there. Warnings. Unprecedented
 
Raoul said:
The ability to go into Gaza and control the territory would be a much better way to get Hamas leaders given that they are physically below ground. Otherwise there's no way of getting them. Do you disagree ?



They've been marginalized into irrelevance, and since they were far more geographically scattered than Hamas, it would seem far less complicated to do the same to the latter given that a vast majority of their fighters are trapped in a very small piece of land.
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I did suggest that, hence the use of special forces going in and carrying out surgical, strategic objectives. My issue (and indeed the issue of many others) was how and why they had decided to bomb Gaza with such unrelenting and indiscriminate fervour, unapologetically killing 7000 people in the process, with absolutely no remorse nor condemnation. Thats not a op, thats a cold-blooded massacre.

And you're keen to keep drawing parallels with Hamas and the likes of ISIS, but last I checked the US and Iraqi armed forces didn't opt to simply bomb Mosul to the ground, but rather it involved security forces going door to door, and securing sector by sector, protecting civilians and ensuring they were given the appropriate aid and refuge. That's hardly the play here and we can all see it.
 
nickm said:
This sort of rhetoric, these sorts of comparisons are childish.
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They are not. And it is ironical that the ones that are perpetrating it are the ones that suffered the most
 
Raoul said:
Agreed. The Hamas can't be gotten rid of "because they're not a group but rather a mindset/ideal" narrative is incorrect. They are first and foremost an organization just like Al-Qaeda and ISIS were. They have a piece of land they control, they have leaders on that land as well as well as in Qatar and Lebanon, and their weapons are funded and supplied by Iran (beyond what they themselves produce on the strip). They can therefore be dismantled and ejected in Gaza.
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They are not.

No matter what your quite simplistic view on that organization is, Hamas still has a nationalistic and independence related cause rooted to their very existence. They are inbedded in a way Al Qaeda and ISIS never were.

Their "resistance" has been limited to what they consider as their "legitimate territory". They never exported violence to other countries, they don't have the same delusional objectives as the aforementioned terrorist organizations (Hamas has its own delusional one, but it's not quite the same). The fact that they used ISIS methods on 7/10 doesn't mean that they are ISIS, or Al Qaeda for that matter.

Now just to be clear, for umptieth time, I'm not condoning their acts in any way. They're murderous, fanatic assholes, not interested in the slightest in a two state solution and a blight for the Palestinians. They've proven it time and again. I find them utterly repulsive and don't believe that their ultimate goal is particularly appealing for anyone with a lick of sense.

However, if you think that they're akin to the terrorist organizations you've mentioned and that the problem can be solved the same way, you're making a colossal error of judgement.
 
JPRouve said:
We really don't need that type of nonsense. You can criticize and even heavily criticize Israel without making inflammatory references to the Holocaust.
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Calling palestinian human animals, dehumanizing them like jews were. Killing them and stealing their houses, like killing the jews and stealing their houses, putting them in a ghetto like gazza where they control electricity, food and water. Marking their car plates like marking jews, wanting the anihilation of them, like they wanted the same for jews.

There are many extrapolations and netamyahu doesnt wear a mustache. It is indeed silly compare both as exactly the same, like comparing mussolini facism to nowadays fascism. They are different but akin because we are in different times with different (final) solutions and no one would be so stupid to repeat exactly the same modus operandi because they would called out. But the comparisons are warranted in several points
 
That_Bloke said:
They are not.

No matter what your quite simplistic view on that organization is, Hamas still has a nationalistic and independence related cause rooted to their very existence. They are inbedded in a way Al Qaeda and ISIS never were. They also never behaved the same way ISIS did against their own "populations".

Their "resistance" has been limited to what they consider as their "legitimate territory". They never exported violence to other countries, they don't have the same delusional objectives as the aforementioned terrorist organizations (Hamas has its own delusional one, but it's not quite the same). The fact that they used ISIS methods on 7/10 doesn't mean that they are ISIS, or Al Qaeda for that matter.

Now just to be clear, for umptieth time, I'm not condoning their acts in any way. They're murderous, fanatic assholes, not interested in the slightest in a two state solution and a blight for the Palestinians. They've proven it time and again. I find them utterly repulsive and don't believe that their ultimate goal is particularly appealing for anyone with a lick of sense.

However, if you think that they're akin to the terrorist organizations you've mentioned and that the problem can be solved the same way, you're making a colossal error of judgement.
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That's not correct. Hamas are not the sole arbiters of Palestinian nationalism or statehood. They didn't exist until a certain point in the late 80s and are not guaranteed to exist indefinitely. They are first and foremost an organization with a leadership structure who control a small piece of land. If that leadership structure are killed and their ability to control Gaza taken away, then they will effectively not exist. The guys in Qatar may continue living there, but the Mossad will take care of them at some point in the future as well.
 
Gavinb33 said:
I keep seeing and hearing calls for senior politicians from all sides to call for a ceasefire, do Hamas actually want a ceasefire because if not these calls are pretty hollow, because any ceasefire would need both sides to abide by it
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They want to swap about 220 Israeli hostages for 6630 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails. That of course wouldn't guarantee a ceasefire since the Israelis are not going to stop until Hamas are completely gone.

More in this thread

 
Raoul said:
That's not correct. Hamas are not the sole arbiters of Palestinian nationalism or statehood. They didn't exist until a certain point in the late 80s and are not guaranteed to exist indefinitely. They are first and foremost an organization with a leadership structure who control a small piece of land. If that leadership structure are killed and their ability to control Gaza taken away, then they will effectively not exist. The guys in Qatar may continue living there, but the Mossad will take care of them at some point in the future as well.
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Yes, all of what you wrote up to that point is true. But as long that there's no search for a political solution to this issue, you're condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past and you'll never solve it.

From your posts on the matter, I take that you are a believer in the military solution, including the extra-judiciary executions (please, correct me if I am wrong). There's a litany of powerful countries that militarily won, but ultimately lost this kind of wars because they bet on the very solution you're advocating for. History will tell you that you're dead wrong unless you take it upon you to literally eradicate the rebelling populations.

Hamas is an ugly symptom, but not the cause of the disease.

"Just because we have the best hammer doesn't mean that every problem is a nail."

- Barack Obama.
 
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Kaos said:
I did suggest that, hence the use of special forces going in and carrying out surgical, strategic objectives. My issue (and indeed the issue of many others) was how and why they had decided to bomb Gaza with such unrelenting and indiscriminate fervour, unapologetically killing 7000 people in the process, with absolutely no remorse nor condemnation. Thats not a op, thats a cold-blooded massacre.

And you're keen to keep drawing parallels with Hamas and the likes of ISIS, but last I checked the US and Iraqi armed forces didn't opt to simply bomb Mosul to the ground, but rather it involved security forces going door to door, and securing sector by sector, protecting civilians and ensuring they were given the appropriate aid and refuge. That's hardly the play here and we can all see it.
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if it is a regional group, then they will have to annex the region.
Provocation, existential threat, or perhaps from the point of view of some Israeli, a perfect excuse.
It would also make no sense to go in, take down Hamas and leave, risking the problem repeating itself.
Total occupation and parasitization of the land or government managed by various actors on the region and parasitization of the land a posteriori with more subtlety, and from there managing threats from a different type of border.
I don't think they have declared war after 50 years to carry out a "special military operation" and if they bomb, and using an unpleasant term repeated these days, it is to soften the ground, because obviously they are not going to send their own army to the slaughterhouse.
Clinical military operations and special forces seem like something that would be done against a command, not against thousands of combatants who, from what I understand, have their headquarters under a hospital.
That_Bloke said:
Yes, all of what you wrote up to that point is true. But as long that there's no search for a political solution to this issue, you're condemned to repeat the mistakes of the past and you'll never solve the issue.

From your posts on the matter, I take that you are a believer in the military solution, including the extra-judiciary executions (please, correct me if I am wrong). There's a litany of powerful countries that militarily won, but ultimately lost this kind of wars because they bet on the very solution you're advocating for. History will tell you that you're dead wrong unless you take it upon you to literally eradicate the rebelling populations.

Hamas is an ugly symptom, but not the cause of the disease.

"Just because we have the best hammer doesn't mean that every problem is a nail."

- Barack Obama.
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They lost them because the military presence was like a group of watchtowers in the middle of the immensity, thousands of kilometers from their capital. The United States (if that's what you mean) did not intend to send settlers to Kabul and occupy the land, Israel does intend to, now or in 20 years
 
YouOnlyLiveTwice said:
I don't know shit about any of that. All i know is they said they want hamas gone, and sending them into gaza without reducing the threat to their soldiers as much as possible beforehand would be stupid.
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What exactly is Israel’s end goal here then? Eliminate Hamas, level Gaza and that’s it?

Where do you think the million odd survivors will go? Under Israeli governance or levelled with Gaza?
 
I am disgusted by justifying the killing of 3000 child by the "What can Israel do?"

They should fecking stop this war now. No ifs and buts.
 
Gavinb33 said:
I keep seeing and hearing calls for senior politicians from all sides to call for a ceasefire, do Hamas actually want a ceasefire because if not these calls are pretty hollow, because any ceasefire would need both sides to abide by it
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Yes and they offered freeing the hostages in exchange of cease fire.
 
That_Bloke said:
They are not.

No matter what your quite simplistic view on that organization is, Hamas still has a nationalistic and independence related cause rooted to their very existence. They are inbedded in a way Al Qaeda and ISIS never were.

Their "resistance" has been limited to what they consider as their "legitimate territory". They never exported violence to other countries, they don't have the same delusional objectives as the aforementioned terrorist organizations (Hamas has its own delusional one, but it's not quite the same). The fact that they used ISIS methods on 7/10 doesn't mean that they are ISIS, or Al Qaeda for that matter.

Now just to be clear, for umptieth time, I'm not condoning their acts in any way. They're murderous, fanatic assholes, not interested in the slightest in a two state solution and a blight for the Palestinians. They've proven it time and again. I find them utterly repulsive and don't believe that their ultimate goal is particularly appealing for anyone with a lick of sense.

However, if you think that they're akin to the terrorist organizations you've mentioned and that the problem can be solved the same way, you're making a colossal error of judgement.
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Do they? even that has changed since 2017. Carter did say Hamas was ready to negotiate but Netanyahu was not interested in a two state solution. The only thing I can see is Netanyahu marginalising the PA and Fath to give Hamas the ground for a bigger role in the Palestinian politics. That is the only way he can keep his dream of a one Israeli state if he has fanatics on the other side.
 
Halftrack said:
Their leader is calling Palestinians the children of darkness, he's making references to the Torah about how they have to kill all the women and children as well, they have a government full of racists who see the Palestinians as a blight to be purged, and last but not least, they're bombing the fecking shit out of a captive population that they keep in a ghetto and are denying even the basics.

And then there's the whole stealing land from the the other Palestinian population that they deny rights to and treat as second class citizens.

Do you think comparing that to Germany in the 1930s offensive? Okay. I find the fact that we have people in here going "this is all Hamas fault", is if Israel has no agency, disturbing. I find the fact that we have people arguing that Israel has to do this disgusting. I find the fact that we have people arguing that Israel is showing restraint mind-boggling.
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Make actual points about Israel. Don't enter the thread with inflammatory short sentences that are specifically designed to shock a particular demographic. The reason behind it is that the thread is already a mess and we really don't need that type of dynamic.
 
carvajal said:
[snip]

They lost them because the military presence was like a group of watchtowers in the middle of the immensity, thousands of kilometers from their capital. The United States (if that's what you mean) did not intend to send settlers to Kabul and occupy the land, Israel does intend to, now or in 20 years
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I didn't specifically mean the US.

There are plenty of colonial powers throughout recent history that were much more powerful and more established than the US and Israel will ever be. And they all lost, unless they acted in full genocide mode.

Occupation is a losing bet. It's as degrading for the occupier as for the occupied and brings out the worst of both sides.

Israel is an occupying and colonizing country. That's a fecking fact and the sooner people realize that the better. They'll eventually stop doing insane mental gymnastics and wiggling like a frog on a hot rock.
 
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Raoul said:
They are first and foremost an organization just like Al-Qaeda and ISIS were
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Raoul said:
That's not correct. Hamas are not the sole arbiters of Palestinian nationalism or statehood. They didn't exist until a certain point in the late 80s and are not guaranteed to exist indefinitely. They are first and foremost an organization with a leadership structure who control a small piece of land. If that leadership structure are killed and their ability to control Gaza taken away, then they will effectively not exist. The guys in Qatar may continue living there, but the Mossad will take care of them at some point in the future as well.
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In the very unlikely scenario that Israel could somehow go into Gaza and identify and kill enough Hamas members to effectively put an end to that organization, another movement with the same Islamo-Nationalist impulse would emerge to assume its place, and likely a considerably worse one. PIJ - an older organization than Hamas with similar origins - are already there, and Palestinian nationalism is so deeply rooted and the ideological elements that comprise it so broadly accepted among Palestinians that it cannot be defeated military in a conventional sense. So @That_Bloke’s distinction between Hamas and the likes of ISIS is not only correct but also crucial to understanding why Israel can’t win here without effectively making life in Gaza uninhabitable for its residents. And even that would simply signal a new phase of conflict.
 
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