Surely you can understand why Germany of all countries might be a bit more strict when it comes to allowing demonstrations that have a chance of descending into antisemitism?
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Surely you can understand why Germany of all countries might be a bit more strict when it comes to allowing demonstrations that have a chance of descending into antisemitism?
I doubt the Palestinian cause for resistance is to invade, occupy and ethnic cleanse Jews. That's the victim blaming double speak perfected by the media echo chamber we are inundated with. Palestinians lived with Jews harmoniously before Zionists invaded and then set up an apartheid Jewish state.
Israel is occupying Palestinian land, why would Palestinians destroy their own land if they had means to? That's irrational nonsense, meant to justify treating others as animals, that no one in their right mind should entertain.
Sensationalist nonsense about Hamas going on rampages to rape and torch babies again, where did that happen? Barbarism is invading and occupying a people for decades, holding the survivors and refugees under siege in a concentration camp, and then proceeding to mercilessly killing them for daring to break free.
This thread is depressing, thing this stuff is actually overlooked, the daily reality of a group of people just taking land under the guise of "resettlement" and with armed support. Like, what right do you have? I suppose some random self identified right to do so because *reasons*.
How long we gonna keep using this argument though?
How long is long enough for us to just box off The Holocaust as "history"?
I don't know. But personally I disagree with treating demonstrations in Germany differently. Same set of rules for all IMO.
I think it's absurd to think it can be as black and white as that.
They're going a bit too far the other way though and in danger of oppressing another community, if not already doing so.
This was an eye opening and interesting article;
https://archive.ph/2021.05.10-035552/https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1991/07/18/on-gaza-beach/
https://archive.ph/2021.05.10-035552/https://www.nybooks.com/articles/1991/07/18/on-gaza-beach/
If it was basically any other country, I'd agree.
The fact is that the Germans absolutely do not want any sort of permitted demonstration/protest being the source of antisemitism.
The same point was made previously. Again, I'm fine with that but then they should just be honest about it rather than demonizing the Pro-Palestinian supports and 'violent' and 'anti-semitic' to support their ban.
I'm not sure what you mean here. At least from what do.ob has described, the police are very up front about the reasons behind banning certain demonstrations.
You're, of course, free to disagree with those reasons, but I don't think it's necessarily demonising supporters of Palestine as a whole to acknowledge that such demonstrations present a real risk of including some element of antisemitism.
Germany should be more concerned about descending into islamophobia. An increasing percentage of its population supports AfD, a far-right islamophobic part which puts out filth about breeding white babies.
Descending into islamophobia because you were trying not to descend into antisemitism is useless.
It doesn't really make sense, his prophecies (bearing in mind there is no God of any kind and it's mental how religion has so much influence) are about the Second coming and essentially how great it will be for everyone.
It's a stupid argument.
Its like they learned the wrong lessons from past wrongs.
And learning the wrong lessons from past wrongs, is literally exactly how Nazi Germany started
Yes, the police are upfront that the protests are violent and anti-Semitic, how is that not demonizing them? What they should be upfront about is that they won't allow any type of criticism of Israel, even if it's as simple as a single guy holding a Palestinian flag, because they committed genocide against Jews, no matter how it effects the rights of other people.
I think with the Palestinian protests the problem is that the illegal chants come from the organizers and large parts of the crowd, so it's more than a few bad apples. But having said that, I think it's safe to assume that German laws are especially strict when it comes to antisemitism or the matter of Israel's right to exist.
Regarding the second paragraph, I don't think violence is a good reason to let antisemitic protests stand.
I'm not sure if supporting a fascist government in their efforts to ethnically cleanse their claimed country is the right response to that specific situation.
I don't disagree. I'd say they're two separate issues though, and the fact is that Germany have a very real, and frankly, horrifying history of antisemitism, and what you're presenting there is ultimately a hypothetical (if indeed worrying) future.
Look, I'm not German and don't live in Germany, so can't speak for exactly what the police have said on the matter.
From this thread, my understanding is that they've highlighted the risk of violence and antisemitism as the reasons behind the ban. This isn't a judgment on all supporters of one side as being violent and/or antisemitic, but an acknowledgement that a large gathering of such supporters will include a large enough number who are violent and/or antisemitic for it to be a problem.
It seems unlikely to me that they've outright called every single supporter of one side "violent antisemites", but maybe they have. If they have, then it's clearly wrong.
I can sympathise with those who just want to demonstrate/protest peacefully, and don't disagree with the idea that there is surely a better solution than a blanket ban. I just think it's abundantly clear why Germany are very careful when it comes to antisemitism.
I don't think this is at all helpful.
I'm not referring to their support of Israel. I'm referring to their apparent policies on permitting public protests/demonstrations.
It's all part of it, no?
But like I said about AfD, you don't think those are protests where racists chants are made? Why are those allowed but then simple Pro-Palestinian one aren't? Is there similar scrutiny on pro-Israel demonstrations to make sure there aren't racist or Islamophobic elements because there certainly are in other countries?
Another issue is adopting the IHRA definition of anti-semitism makes some of the valid criticism, supported by human rights organizations, such as Israel being an apartheid state against Palestinians, anti-semitic and therefore can be used to delegitimize criticism.
Though the IHRA says criticism against Israel is not anti-semitic, they then add to say that:
"criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic"
That's deliberately vague where they can claim some criticism is anti-semitic (such as the apartheid claim).
I think I've posted this a couple of times by now, but Germany is a federal republic, which means the states get to decide these matters on their own. Berlin's policy is based on their own situation and considerations and only applies to their own city(-state). The rest of the country, to my knowledge, isn't nearly as strict.
I'm sure that there are plenty of racists at AfD ralleys, but in terms of group behaviour they seem to be much smarter about expressing themselves in accordance with the law.
I'm sure that there are plenty of racists at AfD ralleys, but in terms of group behaviour they seem to be much smarter about expressing themselves in accordance with the law.
On a macro level, yeah. It's just that exchange quoted was about a specific aspect of the whole thing.
As I said a post or two ago, there has to be a better solution than just outright banning demonstrations on one side of this. It's just that I can see why Germany specifically have the stance that they have. I can understand the frustrations from those living in Germany that want to their voices to be heard.
Thank you. So, why that person with the flag, in the video that I referred to, was stopped then? He was standing there peacefully it seemed.
You can post this 20 more times. People don’t give a shit. The same way they don’t care that the Palestinian flag isn’t illegal (they just ignore that they amplify fake news and don’t bother to set their wrong statements right).
They also don’t care that the laws in question are in no way exclusive to the matter at hand and get utilities all the time without any relation to Israel and Palestine. They also don’t care that there are protests in Germany for the Palestinian cause all the time (which I know as I’ve been there in the past).
The main issue I see here is that the organisers in Berlin are incapable of steering the protests in a direction that’s legal and are too unorganised in general to keep bad faith actors away. But that can’t be. So it must be a conspiracy in order to overcompensate.
No idea. Haven’t watched it. But the statement that the display of the Palestinian flag is illegal is completely wrong.
I didn’t say that. I said that the PA was recognized by Germany, and wondered why someone holding their flag would be arrested.
In any case, thank you for clarifying.
You should watch it. I’d love to know what rule the guy is breaking in your opinion.
In London they also march with balaclavas, flares, mount monuments and chant "Alluhu Akhbar". Some wave the black flag and chant for Intifada / Jihad. So the Germans are right to stamp down on it. They know better than anyone what happens when you turn a blind eye to this shit.
This statement by Berlin Culture Workers for Palestine was interesting in general but I think this part is relevant to the discussions in the last page:
"German post-reunification "remembrance culture" (Erinnerungskultur)—the state campaign to address Germany's mass slaughter of the Jews—has taken a stunning contemporary form. This state-sponsored attempt to banish fascism and present Germany as a special haven for Jewish cultural life has, in a historical paradox, hardened into another form of national chauvinism. That Palestinians must be patrolled and censured for their supposed anti-Semitism by the German state testifies to the perversity that now drives this national project: having committed genocide has become a claim to moral authority. This fiercely narrow interpretation of "remembrance culture" has also produced the fantasy that anti-Semitism has been largely defeated among Germans; despite the fact that white Germans are responsible for 83% of antisemitic hate crimes, the real threat today is supposedly "imported anti-Semitism," the fault of foreigners, especially Arabs."
"German post-reunification "remembrance culture" (Erinnerungskultur)—the state campaign to address Germany's mass slaughter of the Jews—has taken a stunning contemporary form. This state-sponsored attempt to banish fascism and present Germany as a special haven for Jewish cultural life has, in a historical paradox, hardened into another form of national chauvinism. That Palestinians must be patrolled and censured for their supposed anti-Semitism by the German state testifies to the perversity that now drives this national project: having committed genocide has become a claim to moral authority. This fiercely narrow interpretation of "remembrance culture" has also produced the fantasy that anti-Semitism has been largely defeated among Germans; despite the fact that white Germans are responsible for 83% of antisemitic hate crimes, the real threat today is supposedly "imported anti-Semitism," the fault of foreigners, especially Arabs."
There are countless possible reasons for this. The flag itself doesn’t have to be illegal in order to be of legal concern in special contexts. There have been cases in the past, for example, where people at demonstrations were made to hide away Israel flags, as they were waving them in order to provoke protestors from the other side. So I’d guess the argument behind this will most likely be public safety concerns. Wether that was warranted I can’t say.
That’s the issue in general. These laws are complicated and part of steady discussion by legal experts. Judging what’s happening based on short video snippets and statements from people involved often doesn’t do justice to this fact.
To put it shortly: if I were to walk with an Israeli flag towards a Nazi demonstration, the police would stop me. Even though the flag is perfectly legal.
Where were the marches in solidarity with Iranian people butched by their Islamic nut job government for not wearing the hijab?
Where are the marches against China for rounding up 1m Uygher Muslims and slamming them in Concentration camps?
Why is Israel treated to a different standard to China and Iran? We know why, but you can't say it here.
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There's also a contrasting interview with Berlin Neukölln's (the district where most of these videos are taken) integration comissioner.
https://www.spiegel.de/internationa...orists-a-f7c73040-7be1-4509-9150-810266818f49
Also who are "Berlin Culture Workers for Palestine" exactly? I struggle to find more about them than that blog post on google.
Because unlike China and Iran, Israel are considered an ally to the West? We aren't having our politicians line up to defend those regimes and say they have a right to defend themselves. Its hardly difficult. And there were large protests for all of those. You just hadn't noticed because you likely didn't care.
But please tell us the real reason, no one is censoring you here.
I don’t agree with the statement except for this part here:
produced the fantasy that anti-Semitism has been largely defeated among Germans; despite the fact that white Germans are responsible for 83% of antisemitic hate crimes, the real threat today is supposedly "imported anti-Semitism," the fault of foreigners, especially Arabs."
This is, sadly, true. We just had a Bavarian politician climb in the polls because it was discovered that he created heavily antisemitic flyers when he was young. There definitely is a tendency to blame antisemitism on muslimic immigrants in order to absolve white Christian Germans from antisemitism. Which, very sadly, perfectly aligns with strong anti-Muslim sentiments of the very same group.
But I believe this is starting to get a bit off topic now.
People protested and marched in regards to both of those in London and in many other cities around the world.
Really struggling to see what point you're trying to make here.