Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

I think the best chance of peace is in the form of a 2x state solution. Palestine and Israel could live together and enjoy great prosperity.

but needs the other Arabs need to be the ones to broker it and I don't think it's in their interests to do so.

Palestine could be a thriving state, Gaza on the Mediterranean with a booming tourism industry. New hotels and infrastructure would create jobs and prosperity. A zero tax enclave.

Egypt could give up a small part of the Sinai to expand the area. UAE, Saudi,Jordan, israel could pay for the development of the infrastructure.

issue is I don't think Palestinians would agree to such a measure. Hamas certainly wouldn't, they just want to decimate Israel.
 
Superden said:
I struggle with people condemning Hamas for being utterly comprehensively barbaric for killing babies and alledgedly mutilitating them, and yet condone the siege of gaza and its relentlessbombing, which has also led to lots of decapitated babies.

At the moment there's hundreds close to starving to death in Gaza too.

And let's not forget that the conditions for babies and little children has been dire in gaza for decades, under the auspices of Israel.

Too me its utter hypocrisy.
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One is murder. The other is a very unfortunate result of war. When an enemy hides behind its citizens to attack.

they are not the same
 
gfactor86 said:
I think the best chance of peace is in the form of a 2x state solution. Palestine and Israel could live together and enjoy great prosperity.

but needs the other Arabs need to be the ones to broker it and I don't think it's in their interests to do so.

Palestine could be a thriving state, Gaza on the Mediterranean with a booming tourism industry. New hotels and infrastructure would create jobs and prosperity. A zero tax enclave.

Egypt could give up a small part of the Sinai to expand the area. UAE, Saudi,Jordan, israel could pay for the development of the infrastructure.

issue is I don't think Palestinians would agree to such a measure. Hamas certainly wouldn't, they just want to decimate Israel.
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And the settlements, I assume you'd agree to undo all that illegal expansion?
 
Kinsella said:
Not with the history, and indeed the weight of history at play here. But given that you appear to be advocating that both sides could/should come together as one nation perhaps you can provide examples?
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An example would be any current country that has civil or internal wars in his history, you are free to pick any of them. From France to Japan, the US, Vietnam and a multitude of other countries or kingdoms.
 
gfactor86 said:
Hamas are anti-peace. Their doctrine is to wipe Israel off the map. There can be no negotiation with a party that does not believe you have the right to exist.

Hamas are just ISIS/Taliban/Al-Qaeda. Deplorable monsters that need to be destroyed. How you do that though I don't know.
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Yeah, I agree, but it's hard to explain to people who live elsewhere. Whatever happened in Colombia was hardly like for like.
 
Superden said:
I struggle with people condemning Hamas for being utterly comprehensively barbaric for killing babies and alledgedly mutilitating them, and yet condone the siege of gaza and its relentlessbombing, which has also led to lots of decapitated babies.

At the moment there's hundreds close to starving to death in Gaza too.

And let's not forget that the conditions for babies and little children has been dire in gaza for decades, under the auspices of Israel.

Too me its utter hypocrisy.
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Can you suggest how Israel can destroy Hamas without a siege on Gaza?
 
2cents said:
I’d be a bit hesitant to pin much hope on any individual to break the deadlock (you see it with the counter-factual hopes placed on Rabin for example), and I’d worry that the years of imprisonment and time off the scene have raised his stature beyond its worth in terms of peace-making. I suspect his popularity among Palestinians might decline quite sharply were he to emerge from prison and immediately set out to forge a two-state peace with Israel, but perhaps he has the aura about him to overcome that.

From the Israeli side, he’s obviously going to remain suspect as a hero of the two intifadas, particularly the second which, until two weeks ago, was the most traumatic episode for Israeli society in their long confrontation with the Palestinians. And of course as a potentially unifying figure the Israeli anti-peace right that has dominated their governments for almost fifteen years now will be happy to continue to see him rot.
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You never fail in a few short sentences to make me question my own conclusions. Thank you for that.

I do believe that in exceptional situations, you have to rely on exceptional statesmen and -women who have a political vision and courage that goes way beyond the next elections. There's also, in my opinion, an awful lack of them on the western side, let alone the arabic one. I'm not well versed enough in Israeli politics to make an educated guess about who could emerge if/when Netanyahau falls and if (s)he could fill the bill.

There's definitely on my side a bit of a desperate hope to see a credible enough political actor from the PA with whom a meaningful dialogue for peace could be engaged with. I also definitely agree on the "messianic" dimension generated by Barghouti's imprisonment. The disillusionment it might cause when the magic is off and if he fails to live up to the expectations. Still, he is a firm believer in the two states solution to this day (afaik), has a vision, benefits from a large support of the Palestinians, and I read that he intended to split from the Fatah and found his own political party should he be liberated. It could be a welcome alternative to a Hamas that is now out of the picture and a discredited PA. The Israelis negociated with Arafat, they certainly could negocitate with Barghouti.

It might be a bit naive and premature to talk about negociations and peace talks right now, but I think beyond the horrors of the 7/10 and its terrible consequences, it might exactly be the moment for a real change. Whatever happens and when the dust settles, things willl never be the same again. They either sit down at the table and try to find a solution, or I can see this ending only in one way, and the latter isn't pretty.
 
frostbite said:
Can you suggest how Israel can destroy Hamas without a siege on Gaza?
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The only way to destroy Hamas or the ideology it is built upon is by making gazans and palestinians lives exponentially better. By creating a context where extremism and terrorism is an obvious bad option for gazans and palestinians. But at the minute, it's totally utopic.
 
JPRouve said:
The only way to destroy Hamas or the ideology it is built upon is by making gazans and palestinians lives exponentially better. By creating a context where extremism and terrorism is an obvious bad option for gazans and palestinians. But at the minute, it's totally utopic.
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100%

The Israeli government has been the best recruiter Hamas has ever had.
 
gfactor86 said:
One is murder. The other is a very unfortunate result of war. When an enemy hides behind its citizens to attack.

they are not the same
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dailymail_humanshield.jpg
 
frostbite said:
Can you suggest how Israel can destroy Hamas without a siege on Gaza?
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By accepting the legitimate rights of the Palestinians. The ANC in SA will today be proscribed a terrorist organisation if Apartheid was not crumbled.
No matter how patient and peace loving one is, when hope is lost violence becomes the only viable option
 
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E-mal said:
By accepting the legitimate rights of the Palestinians. The ANC in SA will today be proscribed a terrorist organisation if Apartheid was not crumbled.
No matter how patient and peace loving one is, when hope is lost violence becomes the only viable option
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Are the constant references to the ANC because it's one of the very few examples where a group designated as a terror group was actually the good guys?

I'm sure there are others, particularly resistance groups from the world wars, but I think a big factor in separating resistance from terror is who they target. Once you cross that line, it's almost impossible to come back from it.

Hamas will never be legitimised. They will never not be considered a terrorist group. They are not resistance fighters or freedom fighters. They intentionally target civilians as their primary target.
 
gfactor86 said:
the same people who think Israel bombed the hospital and believe everything Hamas tell them
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Do we know that Israel did not bomb the hospital? Most convincing theory I've seen is that it was an artillery shell fired from the direction of Israel, based on the size of the crater and the dispersal pattern. But regardless, believing it was Israel who hit the hospital is not some kooky conspiracy theory that only antisemites believe.
gfactor86 said:
One is murder. The other is a very unfortunate result of war. When an enemy hides behind its citizens to attack.

they are not the same
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Stop making fecking excuses, it's pathetic. When you deliberately target the civilian population, it isn't "a very unfortunate result of war", it's murder. It's exactly the same.

Are you aware of your own hypocrisy?
frostbite said:
Can you suggest how Israel can destroy Hamas without a siege on Gaza?
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Maybe they could consider not oppressing, brutalizing and murdering the civilian population of Gaza? If they manage to cripple Hamas, but murder 20.000 and injure another few dozen thousand civilians while doing so, is it worth it? What have they accomplished? How long would it take for the Hamas leadership to rebuild, with the abundance of aggrieved boys and young men in Gaza? And if not them, what would stop another group from filling the void left by Hamas?
 
gfactor86 said:
the same people that marched in London today.

let's not pretend that half these people really care about Palestinian lives. They aren't interested in a 2 state solution. All they want is intifada and for the Jews to leave Arab land.

the day after the attacks on Israel and the most brutal day for Jews since the holocaust. They were out marching and rallying for Palestine. This was before Israel had fired a shot back at Gaza
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I was at the march yesterday and your post is total bullshit. People from all walks of life, a significant majority of people from non Muslim, non Arab backgrounds there to support Palestinians. A sizeable number of anti Zionist Jews as well. In a thread of some ridiculous takes from the pro-Israeli lot, yours stand out.
 
The Corinthian said:
I was at the march yesterday and your post is total bullshit. People from all walks of life, a significant majority of people from non Muslim, non Arab backgrounds there to support Palestinians. A sizeable number of anti Zionist Jews as well. In a thread of some ridiculous takes from the pro-Israeli lot, yours stand out.
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I wouldn't even say this is a pro-Israeli take it is that bad. Continually making the same points despite people correcting the many factual errors. It is like we have a bad AI chat bot that signed up for a profile.
 
That_Bloke said:
I do believe that in exceptional situations, you have to rely on exceptional statesmen and -women who have a political vision and courage that goes way beyond the next elections
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I do appreciate this perspective. I guess a classic and pertinent example would be Anwar Sadat’s visit to the Knesset in 1977. I can’t think of another statesman concerned with this conflict that has made quite such a dramatic and daring gesture that genuinely made a difference. Some might argue Rabin and Arafat in the 90s but I’d be less ready to ascribe the kind of vision and courage you’re talking about to either of them. Of course Sadat and Rabin’s respective fates provide a very cautionary lesson to future potential groundbreakers.

That_Bloke said:
he is a firm believer in the two states solution to this day (afaik), has a vision, benefits from a large support of the Palestinians, and I read that he intended to split from the Fatah and found his own political party should he be liberated. It could be a welcome alternative to a Hamas that is now out of the picture and a discredited PA
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At this stage I’m not sure a truly visionary and courageous Palestinian leadership can or should remain tied to the failed two-state project, or to the rejectionist Arab nationalist and Islamist programs that have led the Palestinians nowhere. I’d be a lot more enthusiastic about Barghouti or any other emerging Palestinian leader if they could very publicly propose a fully inclusive vision and program for the future of Palestine - from the River to the Sea - that embraces all of its current inhabitants regardless of religion, ethnicity, origin, etc. Of course Palestinian leaders have to operate within the constraints imposed by Palestinian society (not to mention Israeli suspicion, opposition, and sabotage). And there are genuine questions to be posed regarding the capacity for Palestinian society to evolve towards acceptance of such a vision right now (and not just Palestinian society obviously).

That_Bloke said:
The Israelis negociated with Arafat, they certainly could negocitate with Barghouti.
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Perhaps, although that was a different era and a different Israel, and there’s currently no Israeli politician on the horizon with the stature and qualities required to persuade the Israeli public that maybe they learned the wrong lessons from the failure of negotiating with Arafat.

I saw John Lyndon on France24 last week mention that more Israelis were killed on 7th October than during the entire second intifafa. Given the transformation to Israeli politics brought on in large part by the intifada - the death of the peace camp, the indifference to the Palestinians of the centre, and the triumphalist ascendancy of the anti-peace right - we must assume that the long-term impact of this war on Israel will likewise be transformative. In what sense, however, is currently very difficult to assess, and we have an unprecedented conflict to get through first before we can even begin to weigh such matters. I’m not optimistic though.
 
The Corinthian said:
I was at the march yesterday and your post is total bullshit. People from all walks of life, a significant majority of people from non Muslim, non Arab backgrounds there to support Palestinians. A sizeable number of anti Zionist Jews as well. In a thread of some ridiculous takes from the pro-Israeli lot, yours stand out.
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The Corinthian said:
I was at the march yesterday and your post is total bullshit. People from all walks of life, a significant majority of people from non Muslim, non Arab backgrounds there to support Palestinians. A sizeable number of anti Zionist Jews as well. In a thread of some ridiculous takes from the pro-Israeli lot, yours stand out.
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there's literally videos of people holding up racist placards, chanting for intifada, waving ISIS flags, ripping down LGBT flags.

these same radicals do not care for peace. You will see. As soon as Israel is attacked again, these people will be silent. Or worse still, celebrating in the streets. You'll see their true colours
 
gfactor86 said:
there's literally videos of people holding up racist placards, chanting for intifada, waving ISIS flags, ripping down LGBT flags.

these same radicals do not care for peace. You will see. As soon as Israel is attacked again, these people will be silent. Or worse still, celebrating in the streets. You'll see their true colours
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Post some sources.

Ironically, my family and I were racially abused on the way home by a Chelsea fan at Earl's Court station. That was the only incident of note.
 
The Corinthian said:
Post some sources.

Ironically, my family and I were racially abused on the way home by a Chelsea fan at Earl's Court station. That was the only incident of note.
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That’s shite to hear, though unfortunately not surprising. Hope you’re doing ok.
 
2cents said:
That’s shite to hear, though unfortunately not surprising. Hope you’re doing ok.
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Thank you. And yes, we were all fine - another Chelsea fan came up to us and said "we're not all like that" - made me think of duffer.
 
gfactor86 said:
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Firstly that's not an Isis flag - it's just a black flag with the Islamic shahada on it.

Secondly, a couple of jumped up teens in a protest of 300k-500k is hardly representative of what you're suggesting.
 
JagUTD said:
Are the constant references to the ANC because it's one of the very few examples where a group designated as a terror group was actually the good guys?

I'm sure there are others, particularly resistance groups from the world wars, but I think a big factor in separating resistance from terror is who they target. Once you cross that line, it's almost impossible to come back from it.

Hamas will never be legitimised. They will never not be considered a terrorist group. They are not resistance fighters or freedom fighters. They intentionally target civilians as their primary target.
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So did the IRA but in their mind they were freedom fighters. They are terrorist organisations in my mind and so is the state of Israel. Any group or state that uses terror to put fear in the mind of innocent civilians is a terror group, that is the definition of terrorism.

My point still stand, this conflict will never be solved militarily,
Salt Bailly said:
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ISIS flag or not, the UK government should clamp down on any extremist group that attempt to sabotage peaceful and legitimate protest.
 
Bert_ said:
You ever been to a place where thousands of people have gathered for whatever reason? Odds are, a few of them will be dickheads.
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Exactly. We're fecking football fans, we should know that better than anyone. I guess some people will jump onto anything they can find to drive their agenda. I wonder if people like that say ALL England football fans are racist because of the horrendous racist abuse Sancho, Saka and Rashy received after the final against Italy.
 
Giggsyking said:


Are those representative of the Jewish community in New York?

You can not be serious in picking a video of two people from 300K and generalise on them.
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According to some New York should now ban all Pro-Israel protests because of hateful speech towards Arabs. Isn't that the same logic applied in Germany to Pro-Palestinan protests where a few nuts are used to defame a while movement?
 
The repeated conflation of Hamas with ISIS is pretty amusing given Israel's actual response to ISIS.

ISIS and Israel on the Golan Heights: The Yarmouk Valley is run by ISIS – and left alone by Israel. This is a testament to the complex, cynical and calculated machinations of the actors in this conflict.

Why is Israel not intervening to counter the Islamic State? The rationale for Israel's current non-intervention policy lies in the assessment of the extent to which ISIS can actually represent a threat for the safety of the Jewish state and people.

And more importantly, here's a piece by the Times of Israel about Hamas and ISIS:

Israeli leaders are not naïve, and are doubtless aware of the many differences between the groups. So why double down on the comparison? “It was a decision of opportunity” once Hamas began executing Palestinians in the streets of Gaza, according to Schweitzer. “It was too tempting to refrain from it. And there are indeed characteristics that are similar between brutal terrorist groups everywhere. On the other hand the dissimilarities are quite obvious.”

But the PR line might cost Israel on the policy level. Byman argued that Israeli leaders might be blinded to opportunities if they buy into the Hamas is IS comparison to deeply.

“The IS equals Hamas view of things misses Hamas’s pragmatism,” he said. “It is a violent organization, and some leaders are committed to Israel’s destruction. But it can also be coerced and deterred, unlike IS. You can negotiate with it (as Israel has repeatedly done), unlike IS. Conflating the two risks missing opportunities regarding deterring Hamas or cutting a deal while understanding IS’s evil and fanaticism.”
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And here's another headline from the Times of Israel:

Hamas and ISIS hate Israel — and each other. Years-long conflict between terror groups resurfaces as 3 Hamas policemen in Gaza killed this week in suicide attack blamed on Islamic State.


The Israelis know what they're doing here, they're just trying to reach the percentage of the population that falls for Nigerian phishing scams.
 
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