So, what you are suggesting is that Israel should just forgive what happened and not attempt to eliminate Hamas?
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So, what you are suggesting is that Israel should just forgive what happened and not attempt to eliminate Hamas?
Oh wow. So the Luton Town Discord is run by a Jewish fellow. I've always been cool with him, read his articles and share them, even sub to his podcast etc.
He's obviously upset at the moment but is saying some crazy stuff, like some of the posters in here.
I read a comment from him that said (paraphrasing) "Muslims can't differentiate between peace and war, the march in London was never about peace, it was about the eradication of Jews. That's why it was filled with ISIS flags, this is how most Muslims think".
All I did is say "hey man, there's a platform here, you should probably do a bit more research before saying certain things".
He responded "are you pro-Palestine?" and I said "yes".
Then he blocked me from the Discord!
He's obviously upset at the moment but is saying some crazy stuff, like some of the posters in here.
I read a comment from him that said (paraphrasing) "Muslims can't differentiate between peace and war, the march in London was never about peace, it was about the eradication of Jews. That's why it was filled with ISIS flags, this is how most Muslims think".
All I did is say "hey man, there's a platform here, you should probably do a bit more research before saying certain things".
He responded "are you pro-Palestine?" and I said "yes".
Then he blocked me from the Discord!
Oh wow. So the Luton Town Discord is run by a Jewish fellow. I've always been cool with him, read his articles and share them, even sub to his podcast etc.
He's obviously upset at the moment but is saying some crazy stuff, like some of the posters in here.
I read a comment from him that said (paraphrasing) "Muslims can't differentiate between peace and war, the march in London was never about peace, it was about the eradication of Jews. That's why it was filled with ISIS flags, this is how most Muslims think".
All I did is say "hey man, there's a platform here, you should probably do a bit more research before saying certain things".
He responded "are you pro-Palestine?" and I said "yes".
Then he blocked me from the Discord!
I’m seeing similar situations on social media where long time friends within a particular non political FB group are suddenly at odds with one another. Network homophily is truly running rampant during this crisis.
Maybe find a way to eliminate them that doesn't involve carpet bombing cities? Mossad and the Sayeret are supposed to be shit hot so why not use them surgically to take Hamas out?
I would imagine because real life isn't like the movies.
Do Israelis support genocide?
Israeli genocide scholar Raz Segal has concluded that what is happening right now in Gaza amounts to genocide
https://palestine.beehiiv.com/p/israelis-support-genocide
Pro freeing Palestine does not equal Pro Hamas, right? Or am I missing something with the tags here?
Likewise Pro Israel does not equal Pro Zionist? I got the impression there was a not insignificant amount of dissent from Jewish people in Israel that are sympathetic to the Palestinian peoples struggle here.
Likewise Pro Israel does not equal Pro Zionist? I got the impression there was a not insignificant amount of dissent from Jewish people in Israel that are sympathetic to the Palestinian peoples struggle here.
Clearly not. Just look at what it took to take out Al-Qaeda. An all out invasion of Afghanistan costing trillions of dollars and 100k+ lives. But taking out the only target anyone cared about required a handful of Navy Seals and some intellegence sharing. Far better bang for buck.
20 years on after all that, we're back to where we started anyway. Al-Qaeda still exists and the Taliban are in control of Afganistan.
Israel has (or at least had) a fearsome intelligence operation. Hamas political leadership is living openly in Qatar. Israel has eliminated people in Dubai previously. I don't think a single country would blame them if they tried to kill or kidnap them.
Alternatively, there's a bunch of reports that the political leadership was at odds with the local military leadership in Gaza, and possibly didn't know about the attack or its scale*. Could capture one to get to the other, and push the organization to crumble. That's ostensibly the goal of this operation.
Nobody would blink if they bombed for a week, killed 2k, even if 60% were civilians (the usual ratio), and combined it with a surgical operation in Qatar or against Hamas leadership or both.
Instead, it's been two weeks of wide-scale bombing and a horrifying siege. They're not even putting their own troops in yet. They don't even seem to have a plan beyond banal sloganeering and generalities. Besides a handful, they've not even named the Hamas commanders they've eliminated in these weeks.
The only thing they seem to have decided on and succeeded in doing, is to punish the Gaza population as hard as possible.
*apart from the reports, we also know that the political leadership has just negotiated work permits, which would be a source of revenue for the regime, there is zero prospect of work permits or revenue now, so it was either lulling Israel into false security, or it was two Hamas factions at odds with each other.
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Actually, I don't think I ever suggested they forgive anything.
But no, I don't think they should attempt to eliminate Hamas if it's going to cost thousands of innocent Palestinians their lives.
How many of the 4600 people killed, half of which are children are actual Hamas members? How many Palestinians have been killed since 67? has that brought peace and safety to Israel or avenge the Israelis that have been killed ?
Should Iraqis be working to avenge the 1 million of their citizens killed by US senseless war on them?
What is the going rate for a Palestinian life at the moment and how many of their dates will be sufficient for vengeance because am sure as hell Israel will not be eradicating Hamas, the name might change but the idea will remain until a viable political solution is reached.
NB: I totally condemn the heinous acts of Hamas but an eye for an eye will make everyone go blind, it solves no conflict
This isn’t a civil or internal war though between people of the same nation.
So like the US and their native Indian population? Or the aussie Settlers and their indigenous aboriginal population?
I mean, that was the explicit goal of the clear-eyed Zionist theorist, so it's an example of an ideal end-state for many today. Others may think it's not a great moral vision, and, in fact, a historical atrocity in the making.
Yet another journalist killed by the IDF.
Pretty much every nation is the result of a merger between former nations. Go back far enough and you've got thousands of nomadic tribes claiming to be a distinct people. At some point they started merging with other tribes sharing the same land. Or assimilating smaller tribes into a larger one. Or just genociding some out of existance. The current Israeli goverment seems intent on doing the latter rather than exploring the other options.
Oh wow. So the Luton Town Discord is run by a Jewish fellow. I've always been cool with him, read his articles and share them, even sub to his podcast etc.
He's obviously upset at the moment but is saying some crazy stuff, like some of the posters in here.
I read a comment from him that said (paraphrasing) "Muslims can't differentiate between peace and war, the march in London was never about peace, it was about the eradication of Jews. That's why it was filled with ISIS flags, this is how most Muslims think".
All I did is say "hey man, there's a platform here, you should probably do a bit more research before saying certain things".
He responded "are you pro-Palestine?" and I said "yes".
Then he blocked me from the Discord!
Sounds like you're better off Discord mate
I'd say the level of public discourse on geopolitics is pretty awful in the US, and unfortunately, these types of dickheads are pretty common
You’re too kind.
The question is what Israel should do about Hamas. You do not even attempt to answer that. Should Israel do something about Hamas? Not last year, not last week - today. If your opinion is that today Israel should do nothing about Hamas, then say so.
But what they can do. There have already been demonstrations halfway around the world and they still haven't set foot in Gaza, as well as pressure from surrounding countries.
They are not going to evacuate, from what I understand for fear of not getting their land back, because Hamas is not interested and because Egypt does not want to(?).
Aid and supplies are already coming in so it's not really a siege, more like a blockade.
But on the other hand I guess public opinion in Israel is frustrated, scared or angry and wants results. How many days or weeks can they have hundreds of thousands of soldiers stranded at the border.
I read that Israel used 6,000 bombs in a few days. The Palestinians say that they have 4,000 casualties. Perhaps these numbers are not exact but it does seem Israel is trying to minimize civilian casualties since there is less than one casualty per bomb. I think that's extremely "surgical" (which is the word you used). But obviously, it is hard to have zero civilian casualties, since Hamas is not somewhere separate from the civilians. Certainly, you and I (and I bet most Israelis) would prefer zero civilian casualties and only Hamas to be eliminated, but is this possible?
How many of those casualties were the intended targets? Once you get that number you can work out just how surgical the bombs have been if you know how many have been dropped/launched etc.
Wow. That is an insanely insensitive and pretty disgusting line. Even if being used to make a point.
Shows how low some lives are valued.
I believe the early Israeli bombing campaign has been to go after existing Hamas targets (ie. buildings where Hamas was previously known to be working out of) as well as some of the taller buildings to prevent snipers from using them once the ground invasion starts. And in some respects, it wouldn't be a matter of how surgical the bombs are, but rather whether the intelligence the Israelis previously gathered about existing Hamas targets was still viable.
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Matches with this:
"Israel’s military spokesperson, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, said the country had increased airstrikes across Gaza to hit targets that would reduce the risk to troops in the next stage of the war."
If doing something about Hamas necessarily involves killing thousands of children then no, they shouldn't.
But it doesn't. They just want to kill the children, the adults, the press, the NGOs, everyone.
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Interested to know how you come to that conclusion?
There are two million people live in the Gaza Strip.
There are between 20,000 - 25,000 estimated members of Hamas in total. Not all of those members will be in the Gaza Strip.
Let's assume there are 20,000. That's then a ratio of 1 member of Hamas per 100 of the population of Gaza.
Using your 4,000 figure and the ratio of 1:100, that means that of those 4,000, statistically speaking 40 of them will be Hamas members.
Meaning 3,960 of the 4,000 will be civilians, or to put it another way 99% of deaths are civilians.
As you state, perhaps these numbers are not exact, but it still opens the question - What the actual feck are you talking about??
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If we use this logic then Israel would be even more surgical if they dropped 1 million bombs on Gaza and "only" killed 500,000 civilians. 5k/1m = 0.5 civilians per bomb, 4k/6k = 0.67 civilians per bomb.
It's complete nonsense. We judge minimization of civilian deaths by the amount of deaths not the fecking ratio.
Hamas Fails to Make Case That Israel Struck Hospital
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/22/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-hospital-evidence.html
I'm waiting for someone to come in with an xDeaths based argument for why Israel are not doing anything wrong at this point.
Oh god, have you just opened Pandora's Box?
ah but have you accounted for the quality of the (missile) striker?
You use a ratio (ccr) to determine efficiency but “wrong” is more about if they break any laws within the permissive boundaries they operate. It’s impossible to get an accurate ratio currently due to dishonest reporting on both sides, but rest assured Israel’s is currently awful and only likely to get worse. It’s partly due to a jus ad bellum targeting determination which only they and Denmark seem to use, and they seem to be using rather liberally.
We don’t get to decide whether war crimes are committed before doing the analyses of whether they are committed, or to conflate casualties with war crimes. (Although you do get to say they are doing something “wrong” from a personal point of view). We just don’t know what’s happening. No accuracy in reporting and no count of dead Hamas.
(Sorry for the “uncaring” post)
https://lieber.westpoint.edu/inside-idf-targeting/
Good article if anybody is interested in the law and IDF targeting.
Good article if anybody is interested in the law and IDF targeting.