Israel - Palestine Discussion | Post Respectfully | Discuss more, tweet less

Again you making assumptions I never expressed.
57% aren't murderous psychopaths but support a terror organization that is! So they aren't that innocent. Without the strong support the Hamas terrorist organisation gets within the population they couldn't do what they are doing.

If you support murderous regimes or organisations, then you shouldn't cry when the day of reckoning comes. As a German I know what I'm talking about.

Christ almighty, comparing Gazans to Nazi supporters.

My point was, 57% of a population don't usually lean towards the terrorist organisation. So ask yourself why those in Gaza might? Living in an open air prison, in an apartheid state, where your voice isn't heard, nevermind matter. Where you're stateless, so you can never leave if you want to return to your home, where your people's land is being encroached up on daily, where you can be shot by a settler who will face no repercussions. Maybe 57% of the population feel that there is no alternative. Maybe 57% of the population tried like their parents and grandparents to find a peaceful, political solution only to find the situation worsen as the decades went on. Maybe 57% of the population see no other way. SO what's your solution? Shell them? Create more orphans who hate the state of Israel and see no alternative but to join the extremists? Will your solution be the same in 10 years time when that 57% is 67%?
 
This is where you do yourself no favours. That But is quite important.

And questions can be loaded, they are not just neutral because they are questions. We had that with other questions in this thread.

I'm not sure what your point about Crimea is, but whether it was 30 years, 300 years, or 30 months ago, annexation or occupation of people against their will is just wrong,

Mate. It is now perfectly clear that anyone who does not meekly go along with other posters views is not welcome to post in this thread. Which is a shame and tantamount to censorship and Bullying. Repeat. Bullying in what is supposed to be an open forum. You are setting a dangerous precedent here.
But as you tagline says - can't we just be nice (as long as you agree with me that is).
 
Mate. It is now perfectly clear that anyone who does not meekly go along with other posters views is not welcome to post in this thread. Which is a shame and tantamount to censorship and Bullying. Repeat. Bullying in what is supposed to be an open forum. You are setting a dangerous precedent here.
But as you tagline says - can't we just be nice (as long as you agree with me that is).

Wow. That's a ridiculous response to a nothing post.
 
As far as posting tweets is concerned, from my point of view, it is sharing information. I don't see everything that goes on in social media, and the algorithm will tend to show me what it thinks I want to see. I welcome news from everywhere because I'm not there.
Are you sure you don't mean sharing disinformation?
 
You think all Germans who died supported Hitler? I argued like you do before and was told the Germans who were against Hitler but didn't do anything against him were add guilty.
So what's your logic exactly, they deserved to die?

Also how many people in Isreal support the government who is at fault for encouraing settlers in West Bank to do whatever they want whenever they want to Palestinians there. Among many, other things.
 
I will freely admit my knowledge on this issue is far from as extensive as some of the posters on this forum this is clear, i keep seeing people posting about the need for a 2 state solution but isnt that impossible from both sides in reality from what i have read which is again mostly all in recent weeks it suggests that the Arabs/Palestinians have always rejected Israel occupying the land it does and the need to reclaim that land by armed struggle or other means and then you have Israel obviously wanting to defend itself and its land from this and then themselves land grabbing in the west bank in a pretty abhorrent way, do not the actions and desires of both sides lead to believe that a 2 state is not even remotely viable from either side?
 
Again you making assumptions I never expressed.
57% aren't murderous psychopaths but support a terror organization that is! So they aren't that innocent. Without the strong support the Hamas terrorist organisation gets within the population they couldn't do what they are doing.

If you support murderous regimes or organisations, then you shouldn't cry when the day of reckoning comes. As a German I know what I'm talking about.
So you support Israel, a murderous regime.
 
I will freely admit my knowledge on this issue is far from as extensive as some of the posters on this forum this is clear, i keep seeing people posting about the need for a 2 state solution but isnt that impossible from both sides in reality from what i have read which is again mostly all in recent weeks it suggests that the Arabs/Palestinians have always rejected Israel occupying the land it does and the need to reclaim that land by armed struggle or other means and then you have Israel obviously wanting to defend itself and its land from this and then themselves land grabbing in the west bank in a pretty abhorrent way, do not the actions and desires of both sides lead to believe that a 2 state is not even remotely viable from either side?
Not necessarily. Fatah recognizes Israel but as far as I can tell wants to go back to 1967 borders. Not sure about Hamas' stance here (people keep debating about what their charter really implies).

But the illegal settlements have made it much harder to find a solution.
 
I am sorry you feel that way.
But just to pick you up on what you have just said.
Because that is very significant.
Someone pro one side who reflect this in their posts, riles other posters.

The title of this thread is:
Israel - Palestine discussion.
The important word being Discussion.
Not that you can only post if you agree with one side.
That is censorship.
I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or you just don't get it: I have no problem with your support for Israel (although I disagree with you). The problem is that you say things which are, in my view, provocative or partisan, but when challenged on them you act victimised. Just as you are doing here.

I don't care what you post. I don't want you censored. I'd just like you to have the strengths of your convictions. Because you clearly have them.


Are you sure you don't mean sharing disinformation?
Depends. I'm a history graduate. All sources are welcome and it's up to me to filter through them.

I totally understand the opposite point of view. I'm just giving mine.
 
I will freely admit my knowledge on this issue is far from as extensive as some of the posters on this forum this is clear, i keep seeing people posting about the need for a 2 state solution but isnt that impossible from both sides in reality from what i have read which is again mostly all in recent weeks it suggests that the Arabs/Palestinians have always rejected Israel occupying the land it does and the need to reclaim that land by armed struggle or other means and then you have Israel obviously wanting to defend itself and its land from this and then themselves land grabbing in the west bank in a pretty abhorrent way, do not the actions and desires of both sides lead to believe that a 2 state is not even remotely viable from either side?

It's not viable because the 2 parties don't want that.

1. Israel don't want to give back those lands
2. Palestine don't want to be admitting to cede or whatever their motives is I honestly don't know.

There are practical and workable solutions if they so wishes.

1. DMZ zone manned by UN peacekeepers for a certain amount of years until situation cool down, say 25 years
2. Cooperation in weeding out terrorist and non government action either by Hamas or by Settlers or whoever. Fair and judicial
3. At least open up peace talks and pretend to try solution.

It's easy enough for anyone to lit a keg, I have no doubt that there are times when Hamas and Mossad indirectly "slept" with each other and play the tango

Hamas is the best lightning Rod to Israel, like it or hate it.
 
The difference between the IDF and Hamas is, one tries to keep civilian casualties as low as possible, while the other's goal is to kill as many civilians as possible.

If you don't see the difference, than I rest my case.

I think what you're saying is both sides have different ROE. One side deliberately and pre-mediatively targets civilians for maximum political effect (as displayed 12 days ago), whereas the other targets infrastructure and militants where civilians reside, which means the latter end up dying, or getting injured/displaced. Although obviously different, the net result winds up being comparable. The Israelis could learn a thing or two from the Ukrainians in this regard, who are going out of their way to deliberately avoid civilian casualties (admittedly their own citizens) and only target Russian military and occasional infrastructure (Kerch bridge and a few targets inside Russia).
 
No idea how you come to this conclusion.

The majority of the Gaza population (57% in polls) supports Hamas, a terrorist organisation. Thus, they aren't all that innocent.

Hamas is using civilians as shields so Israel will be condemned for killing innocent people when they go against the terrorists.
So what choices the IDF have? Either let Hamas get away with their terrorist attacks or go against them anyway and cause civilian losses.

The analogy of root cause and symptom can also be applied here. Hamas is the root of the issue, dead civilians is a symptom caused by Hamas actions.
Sounds like a quote from 1937.
 
The difference between the IDF and Hamas is, one tries to keep civilian casualties as low as possible, while the other's goal is to kill as many civilians as possible.

If you don't see the difference, than I rest my case.
This is true if you believe the world started on October 1st.
 
This was never going to happen given Hamas will never accept the actual existence of Israel, as suggested by one of its founders only a couple of years ago.
Just asking but is it;

"We won't accept Israel in its current, apartheid incarnation and want to destroy it so Jews and Muslims can live together"

Or is it more

"We want to blow up all Jewish people.in the region and turn Israel back into a Muslim country without any Jews?"
 
I usually like to say "I think" and avoid the "I believe" because I think, reason has to be more important then feelings.

This might be the last time I post on this thread because I find reason plays no role here, only emotion and identity politics, only the bias confirmation of thought; going so far as treating the words of a criminal and terrorist group as worthy or more, the same as those of democracies.

Any and all half reasonable people that at least want to pretend like they care about truth, or what is most likely, would not go full force in to believing a regime that is known for two things: suppressing democracy in the land (a nice way of saying killing your own population) and dehumanizing the enemy. In the last few days we have another great quality for the criminal and terrorist HAMAS, they will kill their own people (by error) and instead of saying sorry, they will use that as a stick to create more fake news and more emotion in the hearts of those that are easily manipulated and have more feelings then they have the ability to count.

I will post what I think is the best "just f-ing think" type of video that I've seen.

 
Let me explain the reason for my post.

I grew up as a German in Luxemburg, Belgium, Netherlands and France in the 70's. In every country I was frequently confronted with the our past. Whatever I replied, I got to hear Germans are guilty because we supported an evil regime. Without the huge support within the population Hitler and all the atrocities weren't possible.
In a nutshell, WW2 and all the suffering was the fault of the German population.

Wrong or right, this time shaped me and therefore if you willingly support terrorists you aren't innocent.
Thanks for sharing. I personally thought to myself that you were overcompensating as a German due to historical context. Weird to see my assumptions confirmed tbh.
 
The effect of social media and how the media in the west can shape the average (in some cases below average as it seems in this thread) thinker's thoughts with selective journalism.
Add that to the casual racism (from a minority) against arabs and muslims in general and you're good to go.

For example:

Israel bombed a JOURNALIST team in Lebanon a week ago. The entire goddamn team had "PRESS" written on their shields.
A friend of a friend (JOURNALIST at Reuters) was blown into 2, head and torso in one part and legs in another).
Another female journalist has lost 1 leg and is set to lose the other.

How was the news greeted? "Oh a young journalist has lost his life, shame. Anyway, getting to the topic at hand...".
Brutal
 
Without having time to catch-up on all the posts here, is the consensus now that the hospital blast is likely to have been accidental friendly-fire from a Palestinian rocket?

Islamic Jihad most likely. Never 100% certain of course.
 
I usually like to say "I think" and avoid the "I believe" because I think, reason has to be more important then feelings.

This might be the last time I post on this thread because I find reason plays no role here, only emotion and identity politics, only the bias confirmation of thought; going so far as treating the words of a criminal and terrorist group as worthy or more, the same as those of democracies.

Any and all half reasonable people that at least want to pretend like they care about truth, or what is most likely, would not go full force in to believing a regime that is known for two things: suppressing democracy in the land (a nice way of saying killing your own population) and dehumanizing the enemy. In the last few days we have another great quality for the criminal and terrorist HAMAS, they will kill their own people (by error) and instead of saying sorry, they will use that as a stick to create more fake news and more emotion in the hearts of those that are easily manipulated and have more feelings then they have the ability to count.

I will post what I think is the best "just f-ing think" type of video that I've seen.

This thread would go a lot smoother if people stopped being so self-important. Are you lot unable to just give your thoughts without this self congratulation and judgment of others?

You can pretend your opinion is more accurate because you're just so damn reasoned and logical but its bollocks.

It's very frustrating seeing people act this way over a subject where innocent children are dying because of the actions of both sides. Grow up.
 
Just asking but is it;

"We won't accept Israel in its current, apartheid incarnation and want to destroy it so Jews and Muslims can live together"

Or is it more

"We want to blow up all Jewish people.in the region and turn Israel back into a Muslim country without any Jews?"

Killing Jews is literally in the Hamas charter.

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him".

It would therefore not be an exaggeration to say that Hamas exists to kill Israelis, because it is literally written into their founding document, the tenets of which were acted out once again as recently as 7 Oct.
 
Last edited:
I usually like to say "I think" and avoid the "I believe" because I think, reason has to be more important then feelings.

This might be the last time I post on this thread because I find reason plays no role here, only emotion and identity politics, only the bias confirmation of thought; going so far as treating the words of a criminal and terrorist group as worthy or more, the same as those of democracies.

Any and all half reasonable people that at least want to pretend like they care about truth, or what is most likely, would not go full force in to believing a regime that is known for two things: suppressing democracy in the land (a nice way of saying killing your own population) and dehumanizing the enemy. In the last few days we have another great quality for the criminal and terrorist HAMAS, they will kill their own people (by error) and instead of saying sorry, they will use that as a stick to create more fake news and more emotion in the hearts of those that are easily manipulated and have more feelings then they have the ability to count.

I will post what I think is the best "just f-ing think" type of video that I've seen.
I tend to agree with you. This thread isn’t offering information anymore, it’s just a virtual battlefield for some people. The story of the hospital was quite shocking to me. The amount of people who wrote posts completely convinced to be on the right side, abandoning all care in the process, was problematic, to say the least. Even more so when you see that the very same people have learned absolutely nothing from it and just continue the exact same way.
The most annoying thing, however, is how wilfully people misrepresent the opinions of others in the worst possible way. There’s no more margin of error. No benefit of the doubt. Just waiting for any snippet of a post that could be interpreted in a bad way, so you can call someone something horrible.
 
Killing Jews is literally in the Hamas charter.

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.

It would therefore not be an exaggeration to say that Hamas exists to kill Israelis, because it is literally written into their founding document, the tenets of which were acted out once again as recently as 7 Oct.
Thanks, was just checking.
 
Absolutely wild way to talk about innocent people being bombed to death. Insane.
Sounds dangerously close to Osama's "Letter to Americans"

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.
 
This thread would go a lot smoother if people stopped being so self-important. Are you lot unable to just give your thoughts without this self congratulation and judgment of others?

You can pretend your opinion is more accurate because you're just so damn reasoned and logical but its bollocks.

It's very frustrating seeing people act this way over a subject where innocent children are dying because of the actions of both sides. Grow up.


Yeah, never understood some people's need to use large paragraphs to announce their departure from a discussion. And it gets even worse when the reason is because the general consensus doesn't align with their own view.
 
on.
I tend to agree with you. This thread isn’t offering information anymore, it’s just a virtual battlefield for some people. The story of the hospital was quite shocking to me. The amount of people who wrote posts completely convinced to be on the right side, abandoning all care in the process, was problematic, to say the least. Even more so when you see that the very same people have learned absolutely nothing from it and just continue the exact same way.
The most annoying thing, however, is how wilfully people misrepresent the opinions of others in the worst possible way. There’s no more margin of error. No benefit of the doubt. Just waiting for any snippet of a post that could be interpreted in a bad way, so you can call someone something horrible.
I will begin by saying that I am a "leftinst" and the left is IMO the rational point to take in terms of politics, in terms of making the most good for most people.

I think what we are seeing, is the vocal left being taken over by the "it feels" people; by the "do not offend" people. While the original point of the left was reason and in so being, most of the scientist of the World are/ were left, the politics are being highjacked by children.

As a leftist this would not matter except that it does, it does because the more irrational the left is, the more people will and are falling to the extreme right.

Can you even call the right stupid or extreme when the left is in bed with criminal organizations? The left that I know and love are those that check fake news, those that are pro science. I see them not in the last 10 days.
 
I think what you're saying is both sides have different ROE. One side deliberately and pre-mediatively targets civilians for maximum political effect (as displayed 12 days ago), whereas the other targets infrastructure and militants where civilians reside, which means the latter end up dying, or getting injured/displaced. Although obviously different, the net result winds up being comparable. The Israelis could learn a thing or two from the Ukrainians in this regard, who are going out of their way to deliberately avoid civilian casualties (admittedly their own citizens) and only target Russian military and occasional infrastructure (Kerch bridge and a few targets inside Russia).
I think this is a very biased and romanticised take, considering there's plenty of occasions when IDF have attacked and killed civilians when there was no present threat or danger. Just the recent killing of Reuters journalists on the lebanon border as an example. Putting aside all the carnage in Gaza on healthcare units, mosques, churches, shelters, schools etc.
IDF soldiers also get carte blanche when it comes to committing crimes, with their unjustified use of extreme violence against Palestinians. Palestinian children throwing stones are treated far more harshly by the Israeli justice system than IDF soldiers shooting unarmed civilians..
 
I was legit in the middle of tagging you to post the King-Crane report quote in response to that post you’re replying to there when I saw you’d replied to it.

It’s crazy how folks just seem to overlook everything that happened between WW1 and 1948
I think that you can stretch it way further back than the Balfour Declaration.

Britain wanted to counter France and Russia's growing influence in the Middle-East as far back as ca. mid 1800s by supporting and encouraging the emigration of Jews to Palestine and posing themselves as their protectors. It didn't really work out. Still the first big zionist immigration wave (about 35,000 Jews, 3% of the european jewish population) to Palestine in 1882, due to the pogroms in the Russian Empire, already stirred some tensions whithin the Ottoman Empire which began to restrict it while simultanueously giving Jews the same right to buy land as the Arabs. There's been a second wave (35-40,000 Jews), largely for the same reasons as the first, about 20 years later. This one didn't last however, due to the lack of industry, poor living conditions and the hostility of the local populations. It is estimated that between 50 to 90% of these immigrants ultimately left Palestine.

The Ottoman Empire at the beginning of the 20th century was on its last legs. It suffered from a massive lack of technological and industrial development compared to the european counterparts, losing territories and internal political dissensions and corruption were rife. Arab and Palestinian nationalisms were on the rise and opposed to a mass jewish emigration to Palestine. The Ottomans siding with Germany in WWI sealed their fate and the region's. The Arab revolts against the Ottomans were encouraged during the War by Britain, for obvious reasons. After WWI the Empire was dismantled in 1920 (Treaty of Sèvres) giving birth to new countries in this region, many of which had borders largely drawn according to the interests of the colonial powers and not the living populations, ethnic groups, religions and the historical context.

Add to that the Balfour declaration in 1917, ironically named after the man who made his opposition to a mass emigration of Jews fleeing Russia into Britain one the main themes of his election campaign in 1906, which announced the creation of "National Home for the Jewish People" in Palestine (the wording here is very interesting). All the ingredients for the current situation in the Middle-East were already there.
 
Last edited:
Not necessarily. Fatah recognizes Israel but as far as I can tell wants to go back to 1967 borders. Not sure about Hamas' stance here (people keep debating about what their charter really implies).

But the illegal settlements have made it much harder to find a solution.
Hamas actually amended its Charter in 2017 where it settles for a Palestinian state within the 1967 borders.

While implicitely acknowledging that another entity will govern the rest, it still doesn't recognize Israel as a state. It also laid off the racist wording describing the Jews as "pigs" and states that it's not a religous war against the Jews but against the "Zionist Project". Whether it was a first step to acknowledge the other or a smokescreen, is everyone's guess. Make out of it what you will and it doesn't matter anymore.

The Fatah is by far the better choice and more reasonable dialogue partner but it's exactly the one that Israel chose to marginalize while propping up and indirectly financing the other. The Fatah also didn't cover itself in glory in the last two decades and Abbas, who's now 88 years old and largely rejected by the palestinian population, is still in power. It's in dire need of renewal, but its political platform is something everyone can work with and on.
 
“Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s newly appointed hostage envoy Gal Hirsch reportedly yelled at a group of European ambassadors during a meeting earlier this week because of their governments’ support for the Oslo process.”

I feel bad for these hostages, their families and friends. This is not the way to get them out of Gaza.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveb...ure-eu-diplomats-over-their-support-for-oslo/
 
Not to my knowledge. But would not be surprised.
Well, you’re obviously not…

So the reality of the situation is you’ve not been prevented from posting here, and others can see and respond to your posts in agreement or disagreement.

Seems like it’s exactly the way an online forum is supposed to function.
 
I think that you can stretch it way further back than the Balfour Declaration.
Oh you definitely can. No argument from me against anything you’ve posted below
Britain wanted to counter France and Russia's growing influence in the Middle-East as far back as ca. mid 1800s by supporting and encouraging the emigration of Jews to Palestine and posing themselves as their protectors. It didn't really work out. Still the first big zionist immigration (about 35,000 Jews, 3% of the european jewish population) wave to Palestine in 1882, due to the pogroms in the Russian Empire, already stirred some tensions whithin the Ottoman Empire which began to restrict it while simultanueously giving Jews the same right to buy land as the Arabs. There's been a second wave (35-40,000 Jews), largely for the same reasons as the first, about 20 years later. This one didn't last however, due to the lack of industry, poor living conditions and the hostility of the local populations. It is estimated that between 50 to 90% of these immigrants ultimately left Palestine.

The Ottoman Empire at the beginning of the 20th century was on its last legs. It suffered from a massive lack of technological and industrial development compared to the european counterparts, losing territories and internal political dissensions and corruption were rife. Arab and Palestinian nationalisms were on the rise and opposed to a mass jewish emigration to Palestine. The Ottomans siding with Germany in WWI sealed their fate and the region's. The Arab revolts against the Ottomans were encouraged during the War by Britain, for obvious reasons. After WWI the Empire was dismantled in 1920 (Treaty of Sèvres) giving birth to new countries in this region, many of which had borders largely drawn according to the interests of the colonial powers and not the living populations, ethnic groups, religions and or the historical context.

Add to that the Balfour declaration in 1917, ironically named after the man who made his opposition to a mass emigration of Jews fleeing Russia into Britain one the main themes of his election campaign in 1906, which announced the creation of "National Home for the Jewish People" in Palestine (the wording here is very interesting). All the ingredients for the current situation in the Middle-East were were already there.
 
I think this is a very biased and romanticised take, considering there's plenty of occasions when IDF have attacked and killed civilians when there was no present threat or danger. Just the recent killing of Reuters journalists on the lebanon border as an example. Putting aside all the carnage in Gaza on healthcare units, mosques, churches, shelters, schools etc.
IDF soldiers also get carte blanche when it comes to committing crimes, with their unjustified use of extreme violence against Palestinians. Palestinian children throwing stones are treated far more harshly by the Israeli justice system than IDF soldiers shooting unarmed civilians..

There is however a huge difference between doing it intentionally as part of doctrine than one off situations that do happen from time to time with the IDF, which their soldiers should rightfully be punished for (but seldomly are).